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Exactly.
If Moore went to Duke, no one would have thought about retiring 00. If Larry Kenon or Mike Mitc went to UT, they'd have their jerseys retired.
Me saying he's got a weak case for his number being retire != "hate".
And because he's a UT alum.His number is up there because of a tragic end to his career...
Mike Mitc and Larry Kenon obliterate Moore in terms of what they did for the Spurs, and Terry mings is about equal. And they will never get up there apparently.
Moore was an even worse jump shooter than AJ. And isn't that what everyone's been slamming AJ for, when they talk about him on the court?And the truth is, that dude would have owned the Spurs assist records if not for that disease. He never even hit his prime. I don't think Parker would have beaten his career marks had he had the typical prime and decline of an NBA guard.
Exactly.
If Moore went to Duke, no one would have thought about retiring 00. If Larry Kenon or Mike Mitc went to UT, they'd have their jerseys retired.
You do realize that the majority of that leadership style comes from a military influence on American culture? The US Army has courses dedicated to the tough fiery get in your face asshole routine and has had it for quite some time.
I'm glad this guy isn't on my side of an argument.
Following WW2 there was a lot of creedence given to that style of leadership for obvious reasons and it resulted in guys like Lombardi, Bryant, Halas, and Landry. Perhaps you have heard of them?
Those guys were the role model on how to coach in sports and you can see it in the future generations.
The problem is that following the debacle in Vietnam and the massive cultural changes that took place because of that, kids born in the mid 70s and onward were no longer taught to appreciate that type of approach. The Pattons of the world were replaced by Magic Johnson as role models.
Avery Johnson is of that old leadership variety and it is no surprise that guys like David Robinson bought into that but its also a type of leadership that most people dont respond to because most people arent inspired by someone being an asshole to them.
Youre the one talking about how great of a leader Johnson was and im explaining to you why Johnsons leadership style is dated and ty. Even Pop doesnt ride everyones ass all the time and knows to treat people as individuals. Hes got more than just the asshole face to inspire with.
I think you take Robinsons appreciation of Johnson's leadership a little to far and im trying to give perspective.
Bottomline is if Pop wasn't on board with retiring AJ's number, it wouldn't be getting retired. He could have gotten Harris to STFU about retiring the number and it would have disappeared within a couple days. Pop controls this town ... not Don Harris
Pop controls it 99% of the time...
Pop has gotten owned by media initiated fan movements previously though....
Once when he tried to take on Drob...of course DRob also had a lot to do with that...but the mere mention of him leaving was a battle Pop could never hope to win.
And the second was when that stuff with AJ happened...it was instant...like right after the Press Conference...
No, if Pop had wanted AJ's jersey retired...Manu would have never been given that jersey in the first place...no matter how you slice it, the Spurs came off looking stupid.
Pop learned his lesson from when he tried to tangle with DRob and just said eff it...damage control.
Just like right now...they are retiring his jersey just to get it the over with...they know it's becoming unretirable and they have already made the commitment...
You, Mr. VP, know it is becoming unretirable.
Clearly, this explains his utter failures and numerous player complaints with the Mavs.
to be honest i could give a hit if you dont think im credible. i remember reading the article on the express news website at the time it happened and they took it down within hours. i remeber it distinctly. if you dont believe me its not like im going to lose sleep over it.
I remember dizz and the gestapo calling me a liar about it at the time as well.
oh well.
and another thing its not as if what i said and your specifics are mutually exclusive. Johsnon was on Roses ass for making a mistake and Rose didnt 'appreciate' Johnsons leadership so he ing attacked him in the shower.
Excuse me if i think thats the act of a desperate coward.
Did you just try to compare Don Harris to David Robinson
If Pop wants the media to STFU about something, they'll STFU. To try to say a member of the media strong armed Pop into doing something he didn't want to do is both naive and shortchanging Pop for the power he holds.
Don Harris = David Robinson might be worse than Coyote > DRob.
Look, I like Johnny Moore, and his assist numbers were impressive (although it was an era of high scoring when assist totals really started their uptick). But he was never going to ever come close to sniffing an All-Star game or All-NBA squad.
If he had played another 5 years with the Spurs, no one would be questioning his credentials, and sure the Desert Fever gave him some sentiment, but given who isn't up there who should be slam-dunk no-brainers (Mitc , Kenon), I have to conclude that the Longhorn Factor is an overriding aspect.
i dont care enough to pay attention to what goes on in the Mavs locker room. All i know is they choke.
Thats actually another downfall to that style of leadership: if you lose then it gets old really really fast.
I would believe you ... except that never happened.
You stole my take.
But yeah, Johnny Moore was pretty decent but comparing him to Mitc or Kenon is laughable. You ask anyone of that era to rate those three players and Moore would always be last.
Moore is a good guy who went to UT and got his career shortened by an illness. It was definitely a tragic story but that doesn't mean his jersey should have been retired. His best years the Spurs were sub-.500 teams. He put up comparably numbers to AJ, while AJ played in a league with a slower pace and more defense played.
00 is the number to be outraged about if a Spurs fan wants to be outraged. Not 6 ... unless a Spurs fan doesn't appreciate championships or the environment of winning being > everything that the Spurs have today.
i wouldnt remember it so vividly if it wasnt for the fact that i got roasted over it by DizzG and those guys over at SR.com. I was actually concerned that you guys were going to say i just made up the fight like they did. i didnt even know ESPN had something on it later.
Like i said i dont care if you dont believe me. I know what i know and that is that Johnson attacked a naked man in the shower because somone wasnt respecting his authority.
Paper: San Antonio Express-News
le: Little General determined to close ranks this year
Date: August 27, 2000
Spurs guard Avery Johnson experienced a 1999 season that was a lot like his favorite dish - hot and y gumbo.
Johnson, perhaps the fans' favorite Spur, is the team's on-court leader. But the leadership role brought a little too much fire into Johnson's life last season.
Former Spur Chucky Brown blamed the little guard for getting him benched. Brown went so far as to say that one Spur was a snake in the grass - and there was little doubt which Spur he meant.
Johnson, a man who spent years improving his game and working his way into a starting job, met this topic head on.
"You know, this type of thing goes back a long way," Johnson said. "There were bad things said about Magic (Johnson), about John (Stockton), about Isiah (Thomas). They were all people in leadership positions. If you've been in the league for 12 years and you're in a leadership position, you have to do what's right for the club.
"We are paid to try to win les, not to keep guys around who can't help you win. So if they call me, ask my opinion, I can say, 'Yes, we're OK,' or I can tell the truth. You tell the truth or relinquish your role as leader.
"But if after 12 years in the league, I get criticized by a guy like Chucky Brown, it's not that bad.''
Not long after the Brown incident, Johnson and teammate Malik Rose came close to exchanging blows in the locker room after a loss in Cleveland. Johnson apparently was upset that Rose had glared at him after the Spurs gave up a basket during the game.
Johnson carried the slight off the court, where he complained he wasn't getting enough respect.
"I'm sorry that that got out of the locker room. I was disappointed it got out,'' Johnson said. "But I would think if that were a serious problem and the Spurs weren't happy with it, I wouldn't be back here now. But they brought me back with a serious contract.
"I was just focused on doing my job. My first few years back here, I was more concerned about keeping everybody happy. I was not mature then, not confident in my abilities.
"Now, I won't have a situation that undermines my role. I have to handle it."
Rose and Johnson apparently have patched their differences.
"Yeah, if not, I would have body-slammed him when we were together at the women's basketball game the other night,'' Johnson said with a laugh.
All was not so happy last season, when the Spurs discussed dealing Johnson before the trading deadline. They had talks with the Clippers involving Derek Anderson (now Johnson's backcourt mate in San Antonio), talks with the Hornets regarding David Wesley, and may have dangled him to the Denver Nuggets.
So what happened this off-season? The Spurs signed Johnson to a one-year, $8 million pact.
"That's just the nature of the business,'' Johnson said. "Plus, if you are never considered as trade bait, it probably means you're not being considered at all by anybody.
"You know, there are guys like Tim (Duncan) and David (Robinson), guys considered untouchable. You aren't going to trade them. Then there are guys who just don't have a lot of trade value.
"Then, there's the rest of us. Sometimes you might be overestimated by another team and/or underestimated by your own team.''
Johnson has had his time of being considered unmovable, certainly underestimated. He moved around for six years before settling here for the last time in 1994.
He played through seasons of nonguaranteed and/or minimum deals until Coach Gregg Popovich signed him for three years in '94.
Another three-year deal followed, this one averaging more than $3 million per season, and Johnson suddenly was a wealthy man. He then justified it by helping the team to its first le.
Then came the $8 million deal.
"Years ago, I wasn't thinking I'd one day make this much money,'' he said. "I was more thinking that I just wanted to become a starter and then, if I had success, to be paid like guys at that position.
"The Spurs have always kept me in position to be successful. Pop said money would follow if I worked and became successful. He kept his word.''
[email protected]
Copyright 2000 San Antonio Express-News
Paper: San Antonio Express-News
le: One of a Kind
Spurs' Johnson a unique, special player
Date: April 22, 2000
The first time you saw Avery Johnson throw up that line-drive knuckleball, you wondered how he made it to the NBA in the first place.
Then you saw him mature into a floor leader.
Last June, against all odds, he tossed in the le-winning 18-footer against the New York Knicks.
The next thing we knew, the Spurs were floating down the San Antonio River with some pretty impressive NBA hardware in tow.
Watching A.J. from afar, and then seeing him up close this season, my opinion of the fiery little guard has changed.
In this business, you don't allow yourself to become overly impressed with the people you cover because the day will come when the pedestal breaks.
Mike Ditka once said that the main aim of sports media is to erect heroes for the purpose of tearing them down. There is a shard of truth to that.
I have witnessed the rise, and I've witnessed the fall of many great sports people.
But I've never seen anybody as funny, witty, wild, nutty, vocal, wide-eyed and evangelical as Avery Johnson.
Without the power of persuasion, Avery Johnson wouldn't be where he is today - defending an NBA le.
And without him, the Spurs wouldn't be where they are right now - 15 wins from another ring.
Someone asked A.J. the other night what he had done to inspire the 12-point comeback against Vancouver. He blurted, "I said the Lord's prayer."
Actually, Lord's was "Low-erd's" and prayer was "pray-yer."
Either way, I believed him.
With Avery in the pulpit, you can close your eyes and imagine a hot and sticky night beneath a revival tent somewhere in the Mississippi Delta. You want to say, "Amen, brother" and shout "Hallelujah."
The sermons are infectious. He has been delivering them for the last six seasons in San Antonio, and it seems that folks still listen.
For example:
When the Spurs embarrassed themselves in Cleveland after the All-Star break, he tore into his teammates. From the shower, he continued to exhale fire and brimstone. Spurs players delegated David Robinson to wade into the hot water and cool down the agitated Avery.
Robinson didn't want the assignment, but accepted anyway, knowing that A.J. was his friend and might listen.
Returning to the locker area, A.J. went ballistic again, this time against Malik Rose, challenging the 6-foot-6 forward to a fight.
"Next time I throw you the ball, you shoot it," Johnson demanded.
The two stared at each other.
Suddenly, Rose slipped on the slick concrete floor. His teammates then covered him like a fumbled football, fearing he might rise and pummel his little teammate.
We have seen better athletes, better ball handlers, better shooters and better point guards than Avery Johnson.
But we won't see another A.J. for some time. In effect, he has become a player-coach for Gregg Popovich, acting as a communication link between coach and team.
When the Spurs were flat as a tortilla before the Vancouver game, Pop asked A.J. to deliver some y salsa to the locker room.
Before the Lakers regular-season finale, Pop asked Avery if he should rest certain starters, or fire full guns. Johnson's advice was to play hard, and the end result was a 17-point comeback victory.
As the Spurs rumble and stumble into the playoffs, riddled with both injuries and doubt, there is no more important player on the roster than A.J.
With Tim Duncan sitting out the first game, and the perimeter shooting about as predictable as tech stocks, the Spurs need a settling factor.
And a guy who yells a lot, like A.J.
The day is coming when Popovich will hand the ball and the keys to the ultra-athletic Antonio Daniels. It won't be long before Pop says goodbye to A.J.
Soon, the offensive leader of this team will be a guy known as San Antonio Daniels.
But for now, this is A.J.'s team.
And if you're not playing hard, don't get in his way.
Amen.
<HR><I>[email protected]
Caption:
Avery Johnson, who has the drive of a champion, goes between the Grizzlies' Mike Bibby (left) and Cherokee Parks in a recent game.
Avery Johnson is so valuable that he has become a player-coach for Gregg Popovich.
Caption:
PHOTOS: DELCIA LOPEZ/STAFF
Copyright 2000 San Antonio Express-News
No I didn't...and it's good to see you've been taking my advice in the drugs thread...Did you just try to compare Don Harris to David Robinson
Pop did not expect it to go down like that.If Pop wants the media to STFU about something, they'll STFU. To try to say a member of the media strong armed Pop into doing something he didn't want to do is both naive and shortchanging Pop for the power he holds.
IF Pop had...Pop would not have given the jersey to Manu in the first place.
Just like right now...
Pop is going to get wind of that poll, and in the next few days you will see quotes by everyone from Reggie the Fat Coyote to Zarko Paspalj citing what a credit AJ was...and you'll be sitting here jocking it as the gospel...
Completely clueless to the truths about one Gregg Poppovich...
Those being...
Gregg Poppovich could give exactly two s about whose jersey gets retired when it comes right down to it...
He hates two things, controversies and distractions...and this is fast becoming both....
And that's why he's just going to want to get this the over with ASAP.
Just remember...I never endorsed crack in that thread.Don Harris = David Robinson might be worse than Coyote > DRob.
Paper: San Antonio Express-News
le: The wicked cricket? Two sides of victory
Date: February 27, 2000
There's another side to smiling, happy Avery Johnson, and this side has been busy lately.
This side confronted Malik Rose in a comical locker-room rumble in Cleveland. This side also, in a story last week, was described as "a snake in the grass."
The way this side is going: It will take a ruler to the palms of David Robinson today on NBC should Kevin Garnett dunk too often.
But if this side shocks, it shouldn't. This side has been there all along. This side willed a small, marginally talented man to an NBA career, and this side barked the Spurs to their first and only championship.
Two sides? The Spurs have needed both.
Robinson and Sean Elliott have been around AJ for so long that they no longer flinch when their point guard snarls at them. They know that's AJ being AJ.
His sermons can be pointed, which is why the same guy known as The Little General was once given another name by a teammate. The Little Nazi.
There are other, equally unaffectionate nicknames. An agent still calls him The Cricket after a role Johnson had in a movie featuring Whoopi Goldberg. As in: "I wish Gregg Popovich would quit listening to the bleeping Cricket all the time."
Teammates ought to love that Johnson has Popovich's ear. When there's grumbling about the offense - or anything else - Johnson is the go-between. Johnson yells at Popovich, too.
But Johnson's involvement isn't always easy for his peers to take. Locker-room leaders usually are the best players and AJ, for all his growth and chutzpah, still ranks as a role player.
AJ leads partly because the personalities of the Spurs' stars allow it. The ones most bothered, then, are those closer to Johnson's talent level. Such as Rose.
Once, in that loss in Cleveland, Johnson's man went around him, and Rose was forced to cover. He drew a foul for it and glared at a vet not accustomed to being the glaree.
What was said then is less clear. But according to those in the locker room, AJ went at Rose after the game. Rose, standing in socks, slipped without being touched. Various Spurs were coming out of the shower at the time, and they rushed to hold Rose to the floor.
Naked truth: No one thought the scene would have made for a dignified team photo.
But things like this happen, even on good teams between good people. Michael Jordan punched both Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at different times, and all went on to les. After a loss such as the one in Cleveland, maybe childish anger was the appropriate response.
Chucky Brown's feelings, made public last week, were less specific. According to sources, Brown felt Johnson undercut him to Popovich, leading to both Brown's benching and eventual release.
"I don't see him," said Brown of Johnson in the most telling quote, "on any All-Star teams."
When asked by another reporter about the Spurs, Brown said he had problems with only one player. His description of that player: "A snake in the grass."
Johnson doesn't have the power that Brown thinks he has. Popovich listens to him, all right, but Popovich listens to Tim Duncan, too.
Johnson doesn't make Popovich's decisions for him, though indirectly Johnson did affect Brown. According to one Spurs official, Brown failed, in part, because both AJ and Robinson started the season so slowly. With neither scoring well, the Spurs needed more punch than Brown could give.
That's one explanation why Brown didn't work out. Johnson thinks Brown looks for another when he points at him. "Everybody sometimes is looking for an excuse," he said. "If you look at my track record in the NBA, every time I got cut I did not blame a coach or a player."
Instead, every time Johnson got cut, he remembered. He remembers every slight, and he does the same with these remarks.
"To whom much is given, much is required," said Johnson. "When I was in that below-average (level) of NBA player, nobody talked much about me, and I was OK. But now, you move up the ladder a little bit ... I'm glad somebody talked about me last year, and I'm glad somebody talked about me this year. I looked forward to the end result."
Is that a cricket? A snake?
Or, if the Spurs need a push today in Minnesota, a leader?
<HR><I>To leave a message for Buck Harvey, call ExpressLine at 554-0500 and punch 4402, or e-mail [email protected]
</I>
Copyright 2000 San Antonio Express-News
Author: Buck Harvey
Section: Sports
Page: 1C
Copyright 2000 San Antonio Express-News
Steve Kerr? The 20th Greatest Spur of All Time? We should demand that the Bulls take down his number.Michael Jordan punched both Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at different times, and all went on to les.
The Heat should take it down, too.
This is the "in before lock" equivalent of the NBA. Give AJ his due before Parker busts a nut all over his records.
Im pretty sure Jordan didnt punch them for glaring at him because Jordan had just ed up.
Classic...
Spurs would have given their left nut to be rid of AJ at the time this fluff/spin was written..
Don't worry Blaze...we'll protect your family from them.
Actually...Kerr started that fight with Jordan. He said it was either do it or be Jordan's for the rest of his career.
Perdue got punched for fouling Jordan harder than he ever fouled Bulls opponents.
By the way...am I the only one that noticed Shoogar just attempted to classify AJ in the same category as Jordan...
Pssst Shoogar...AJ would have been washing Jordan's jocks if they played together. I promise you...Jordan would have never passed it to him at the 3 point line with a championship on the line...as Jordan did with Ker....after that fight.
I was just trying to back up your devastating argument that Fighting In The Locker Room = Bad Leader.
Wouldn't that have more to do with the fact that Avery was the caliber shooter who would go on to hit a total of 27 threes over his career?
, Tim has 24.
The point is Pop wouldn't have let it go down like that if he didn't want it to go down like that.
Where is the controversy or distraction? All that is in your own mind.
Most Spurs fans can at least grasp the fact that AJ meant something to the Spurs. You think basketball revolves around three-point shooting so therefore AJ sucked.
Luckily, most Spurs fans don't look at basketball in that context.
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