Hakeem vs Duncan Part 2

[sook]

If Hakeem was the greatest defender of all time, he should have had at least 4 DPoY.



I still say Ben > Hakeem.

But he might not be. If someone makes a focking great argument, I have no problem changing my mind.

so far, you and he are failing.... which is unsurprising.

I think its fair to say how long someone has been watching basketball or the

NBA rather, when they put forward such an absurd notion. That is the

quintessence of an insane man pleading his case, the epitome of idiocy, when

you think people will give credence to anything you say after that. May the

basketball gods illuminate the dark realm of what you call a "Brain."

[Gummi Clutch]

I think its fair to say how long someone has been watching basketball or the

NBA rather, when they put forward such an absurd notion. That is the

quintessence of an insane man pleading his case, the epitome of idiocy, when

you think people will give credence to anything you say after that. May the

basketball gods illuminate the dark realm of what you call a "Brain."

LOL OWNAGE. I would still take my man Duncan as a lot people on here put, the better team player but this Blake guy is an idiot, don't listen to him.

[Blake]

I think its fair to say how long someone has been watching basketball or the

NBA rather, when they put forward such an absurd notion. That is the

quintessence of an insane man pleading his case, the epitome of idiocy, when

you think people will give credence to anything you say after that. May the

basketball gods illuminate the dark realm of what you call a "Brain."

so you are saying you smarter than the MVP voters who have been watching basketball, or the NBA rather, that put forward the absurd notion that Hakeem only be in the top 10 in MVP voting just 6 times in his career.

Either you are absolutely brilliant or you fail.

Seeing as how you are a rocket fan, I'm gonna go with fail.

[sook]

so you are saying you smarter than the MVP voters who have been watching basketball, or the NBA rather, that put forward the absurd notion that Hakeem only be in the top 10 in MVP voting just 6 times in his career.

Either you are absolutely brilliant or you fail.

Seeing as how you are a rocket fan, I'm gonna go with fail.

Again, I am still in disbelief about the Ben Wallace being better than Hakeemvthing. And if that is the sole basis of your argument, there is nothing more to argue with you noob, you are not an NBA fan, you are a newbie fan that hasn't watched more that 5 years of this league. A cup of bleach is waiting to be trickled down your eso us this very moment. The NBA, Spurstalk, all the internets is ashamed of your embarrassing assertion.

Don't dig your infested hole any deeper.

[sook]

OMG he wuz only in TOP 10 MVP voting ____ IN HIS CAREER!!!



This kid can't be serious.

[Blake]

Again, I am still in disbelief about the Ben Wallace being better than Hakeemvthing. And if that is the sole basis of your argument, there is nothing more to argue with you noob, you are not an NBA fan, you are a newbie fan that hasn't watched more that 5 years of this league. A cup of bleach is waiting to be trickled down your eso us this very moment. The NBA, Spurstalk, all the internets is ashamed of your embarrassing assertion.

Don't dig your infested hole any deeper.

your whole argument is that I don't know what I'm talking about.

great argument.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...7/12/index.htm

Hakeem is listed at #5, Ben at #7.

wow, that must mean he doesn't belong on the same court as Hakeem.

get off of Hakeem's and do some real research, dip .

[Blake]

LOL OWNAGE. I would still take my man Duncan as a lot people on here put, the better team player but this Blake guy is an idiot, don't listen to him.

whatever you say, mouse.

[ambchang]

so when hakeem only finishes in the top 10 in MVP voting just SIX times in his long career, that should tell you something.......but I'm gonna bet it doesn't.

Hakeem finished top 10 in MVP voting 6 times in his career?
Year Hakeem's MVP voting rank
84-85 #12
85-86 #4
86-87 #7
87-88 #7
88-89 #5
89-90 #7
90-91 #18
91-92 N/A
92-93 #2
93-94 #1
94-95 #5
95-96 #4
96-97 #7

By my count, that's 10 times. He missed it in his rookie year, in 91, he missed most of the season, in 92, he caused a stench and almost destroyed the Rockets franchise. His career started to decline 98.

[Blake]

But that is not what I said you read wrong, you said:

Saying someone is better and saying I would take one player over another are entire two different things.

so you are saying you would pick the lesser of the two players to start a franchise.

thank God you arent a GM.

Trying reading the whole paragraph and not cut it up in pieces.

I did. How exactly does breaking down your paragraph take away from you saying you don't want Hakeem because he "pouted".

still a great argument.

What does that have to do with Duncan better than Hakeem? Do you simply derive this formula out of thin air?

you asked if it was my opinion or facts. Duncan and Hakeem have similar stats but Duncan has the hardware.

If you have a better formula other than "pouting", then great, put it out there.

So you are now saying that the DPoY trophies are what separate Wallace from Hakeem. It seems pretty simple to me. Both of them have similar defensive stats, Wallace has 4 DPoY, Hakeem has 2. 4>2. So what MIGHT make Hakeem a better defender?

I'm the one waiting for the legitimate reason why Hakeem might be the better defender. Why are you copying and pasting my posts?

So DPoY being the ONLY thing that would separate the two on defense, why would you earlier say that there that “Ben might not be better than Hakeem”?

For now it is. I'm still waiting for a legi mate reason.

But feel free to keep breaking down my posts instead of giving reasons why Hakeem was better.

Isn’t this based on Dumar’s memory and opinion? I want facts. I don’t want quotes.

The article said Wallace played against all different positions. It's what called "quoting a source."

Of course here's a quote from his coach:

"There's never been a player in our era that can impact the game like Ben does defensively," Pistons coach Flip Saunders said. "He can guard five guys on floor -- and sometimes he does it on one play....

....Wallace guarded James at times in Detroit's 113-86 win Sunday over the Cavs in the opener of their second-round series....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2436694

In a court of law, it would be admitted as evidence, even if you still don't get it.

What point have I missed? Care to elaborate? Why did you originally put it in your quote saying

What was the point of this?

the point was to say that Wallace focused strictly on defense while Hakeem had to focus on his all around game.

Do I need to explain another time? do i need to type slower for you?

And all along you would imagine that people thinking Hakeem faced stronger opposition back in the day based on their observation were not opinions? You are quite bright.

Right and that's all they've been basing it on.

I've been basing it on the hardware.

Pretty tough to argue against hardware, but for some reason, you guys keep trying.

Since when have you asked me for it?

you as in you all. I said I'll be glad to change my mind if there is a legitimate reason.

still waiting.

and I'm sure I won't get it.

in the end, stats+hardware+opinion = Duncan>Hakeem.

/thread

[Blake]

Hakeem finished top 10 in MVP voting 6 times in his career?
Year Hakeem's MVP voting rank
84-85 #12
85-86 #4
86-87 #7
87-88 #7
88-89 #5
89-90 #7
90-91 #18
91-92 N/A
92-93 #2
93-94 #1
94-95 #5
95-96 #4
96-97 #7

By my count, that's 10 times. He missed it in his rookie year, in 91, he missed most of the season, in 92, he caused a stench and almost destroyed the Rockets franchise. His career started to decline 98.

My mistake.

I meant top 5 just 6 times.....not top ten.

Duncan has been top ten every year and has failed to make the top 5 just twice.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/mvp.html

[ambchang]

so you are saying you would pick the lesser of the two players to start a franchise.

thank God you arent a GM.

Seems like you are putting your fantastic comprehension skills at work. Since when have I said Duncan was the lesser player? You also seem to have a knack of jumping to illogical conclusions.

I did. How exactly does breaking down your paragraph take away from you saying you don't want Hakeem because he "pouted".
still a great argument.

Why would I want to start a franchise with a player who’s pouting almost broke the franchise apart?
And why aren’t people basing conclusions on their observations not “great arguments”? Is that your opinion?

you asked if it was my opinion or facts. Duncan and Hakeem have similar stats but Duncan has the hardware.
If you have a better formula other than "pouting", then great, put it out there.

I already did, and posted it twice. But then your top-notch reading ability got in the way.

I'm the one waiting for the legitimate reason why Hakeem might be the better defender. Why are you copying and pasting my posts?

It’s pretty cut-and-dry. Why might you even consider it?
Outside of your comprehension ability, you seem to have difficulty grasping the argument that you are being inconsistent in your approach.

For now it is. I'm still waiting for a legi mate reason.
But feel free to keep breaking down my posts instead of giving reasons why Hakeem was better.

Why is the onus on me to prove Hakeem was the better defender? In fact, I am not really that interested in showing it. You are en led to your opinions.
Besides, you still failed to come up with any criteria that would make convincing possible. You have stated that DPoY awards are the only thing that separates the two. 4>2, what is there to convince? But then at the same time, you said there might be a possibility that Hakeem would be better.
Unless you can come up with a situation where 2>4, I don’t see how you are contradicting yourself in the same thread.

The article said Wallace played against all different positions. It's what called "quoting a source."

Of course here's a quote from his coach:

I am sure quotes from his own coach is not biased at all.

In a court of law, it would be admitted as evidence, even if you still don't get it.

You are a lawyer? Are we in a court of law now?
Here is a quote from a CBS blogger, Brandon Smith:

http://the-big-b.blogs.cbssports.com...eem%20Olajuwon
The Dream" was so good on offense that it made you forget how great his defense was. He was such a good offensive player that people tend to forget the best part of his game was his defense. He was the most athletic center in NBA history and used this too his advantage; most notably being one of only 4 players to record a quadruple-double. He is the 7th all time leader in steals, the highest of any center in history. His defense contributed to two les for the Rockets. He won the DPOY twice, made 5 NBA All Defensive First teams, and is the only player in history to make the Top 10 in blocks, steals, rebounds, and scoring.

Or All Sports:

http://www.allsports.com/players/hakeem-olajuwon/
Within a few years, Olajuwon became the face of the franchise and became of the league's premier rebounders and shot blockers, as well as a center nimble enough to defend guards on the perimeter, dribble like a point guard and execute his “Dream Shake" series of spins and fakes in the paint

the point was to say that Wallace focused strictly on defense while Hakeem had to focus on his all around game.

And this added to the conversation about their defensive abilities in what manner?

Do I need to explain another time? do i need to type slower for you?

Yes, please do.

Right and that's all they've been basing it on.

I've been basing it on the hardware.

Pretty tough to argue against hardware, but for some reason, you guys keep trying.

Why is it that hard? People getting hardware within different years are judged differently. The compe ion is different, and the game certainly is different. Rules changed, defenses change, offenses change, and quite a bit is different between this era and the last.

you as in you all. I said I'll be glad to change my mind if there is a legitimate reason.

still waiting.

and I'm sure I won't get it.

in the end, stats+hardware+opinion = Duncan>Hakeem.

/thread

Why do you have to + opinion? Since when has that came in? Why is your opinion more convincing than other people’s opinion?
And why are you expecting me to have a response to a question I have no inclination of answering? You have already made your case that Duncan>Hakeem, others have made their case that Hakeem>Duncan, your refusal to accept their arguments doesn’t make those arguments pointless.

My mistake.

I meant top 5 just 6 times.....not top ten.

Duncan has been top ten every year and has failed to make the top 5 just twice.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/mvp.html

So what is there to argue? You have already set up your own criteria of judging their relative worth and place in history.

[mavs>spurs2]

You're trying too hard to hold a serious conversation with a moron, you're a good poster but it's just not possible. He will bring you down to his level where he can try to beat you

[Bob Lanier]

Is Blake the reincarnation of whottt?

[sook]

Is Blake the reincarnation of whottt?

lol whottt ACTUALLY uses common sense. Saying wallace is a better defender only shows therefore lack of

Most blocked shots in NBA history? Most steals ever for a center? Quadrupole double? How the is this guy a better defender than wallace? That was the ultimate suicidal statement.

[Double-Up]

Wow I wonder if Hakeem could do better with the Spurs current supporting cast than Duncan is? No knock on Tim...but I think he could.

[La Peace]

I'd take Hakeem.

[Larry Joe Bird]

1. McHale
2. Duncan
3. Olajuwon

[Laker_1995]

Duncan greatest PF of all time and top ten player of all time. Absolutely love this . Seen him play at staples years back. Came so damn close to an autograph lmao

[LkrFan]

I saw this thread posted before in the Spurs section but wanted to get the opinion of other fanbases. So which would you pick to be your franchise player? Please don't let this become another off topic bashing thread.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tim_duncan/career_stats.html

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/hakeem_olajuwon/index.html

Dream >>> and it ain't even close. And I don't wanna hear about les. Give Dream Pop for 20 years then come and talk to me.

[LkrFan]

1. McHale
2. Duncan
3. Olajuwon

[LkrFan]

Top 5 big men of all-time

1) KAJ
2) Dream
3) Shaq
4) Wilt
5) Russell

Jim somewhere after that. I just can't get that 2004 Olympic stain out if my mind. No other HOF big man has any Bronze Medals in their trophy case.

Edit: David Robinson has one from 1988. Never mind

The best two players in Spurs history have Bronze Medals

[LkrFan]

If I recall correctly, Dream has a Gold Medal from 1996. Dream >>> Jim

[LkrFan]

I mean, Jim has been NBA ref-protected his whole NBA career. Them FIBA refs didn't play that shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!!

[LkrFan]

Jim a system playa like Kawhi

[LkrFan]

How could a then 2x champ win Bronze? Damn