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  1. #401
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    Ofc that's the whole point. Spurs don't need a primary ball handler with Wemby in (that's one of the reasons some fans didn't want Tre) or another "postionless" guy like Sochan. And not like Castle is Kyrie, Stockton or prime CP3 either. He's not elite enough at playmaking if he doesn't fix his shooting issues. Again, it's not about being OK or good, but great. This is the freaking NBA.

    Everybody said we needed shooting on this team before the draft and everyone said players in this draft were all coming issues. Then spurs draft Castle and some fans are like "Who cares if he can't shoot in today's NBA! Look, our baby can handle the ball and cut in summer league vs. scrubs! Future HOFer! Gonna be great to see him do his show and make a brick contest with Sochan while opponents will triple team Wemby!"

    The NBA is filled with guys who can handle the ball. Shooting is what will make the difference for Castle. It's OK to do your thing in summer league where defenses are garbage and there's no scouting report, but Castle won't have all these lines and space if he can't shoot in the NBA. People will just clog the paint and dare him to shoot.
    Stop ing embarrassing yourself already, please.
    I'll have to block you, no other way around it.
    There's nothing I hate more on the internet than people who spew nonsense, get proven wrong with actual data and videos, act like nothing happened and come back with the same nonsense a few days later, acting like nothing happened.
    Your post is so horrible I don't even know where to begin with.
    Stop quoting me on this topic since you're acting like an idiot when it comes to Castle. Better be prepared for a wall of your posts being pasted after every game this season, so the entire forum can see how lost you were on this.

  2. #402
    Costly Mistakes JPB's Avatar
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    Stop ing embarrassing yourself already, please.
    I'll have to block you, no other way around it.
    There's nothing I hate more on the internet than people who spew nonsense, get proven wrong with actual data and videos, act like nothing happened and come back with the same nonsense a few days later, acting like nothing happened.
    Your post is so horrible I don't even know where to begin with.
    Stop quoting me on this topic since you're acting like an idiot when it comes to Castle. Better be prepared for a wall of your posts being pasted after every game this season, so the entire forum can see how lost you were on this.
    then block me, mate... Don't know why you got so emotional about Castle. But before, go read what people were saying about Sochan when we drafted him if you wanna see people embarassing themselves.

    Cliff Notes: "Who cares if sochan can't shoot", this isn't the point.. look at his versatility and playmaking abilities." (reminds you of something?). There were even people hating on me and asking to stop embarassing myself when I said it was craziness to put him at the point...

    Yes, ST experts liked it at first, to tell how deluded and hopeful we sometimes are about our players... Now, ST is all about: 'Sochan is explandable, dude can't shoot for his life. Good at several things, not great at anything".

    So yes, defining a role and developing a shoot are important for Castle. I mean ofc, it is, Uh? Did some of you you totally lose your mind or is it some honeymoon thing where the other one is just so ideal and perfect... before only time will tell you who they really are?

    Now you can block me.

    Crazy how some of you guys went totally histerical after 2 summer league games and can't stand a bit of contradiction about Castle. It's like you want so much him to become that star that you'll hate on anybody trying to bring some moderation, sense and distance after two freaking summer league games where many guys who never lookd like MJ out there.
    Last edited by JPB; 07-24-2024 at 09:51 AM.

  3. #403
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    then block me, mate...
    I completely stopped replying to your nonsense about Castle in which you provide zero arguments and you keep quoting me on the matter with nothing but whataboutisms and projections based on nothing but your subjective opinions.

    but before, go read what people were saying about Sochan when we drafted him if you wanna see people embarassing themselves.
    Two different players playing two different positions with two different skillsets.

    Cliff Notes: "Who cares if sochan can't shoot", this isn't the point.. look at his versatility and playmaking abilities. (reminds you something?). There were even people hating on me and asking to stop embarassing myself when I said it was craziness to put him at the point...
    Sochan's only improvement over two seasons was his FT shooting. His other stats, both box score and advanced, are almost identical.
    Idk who was hating on you back then, right now I'm hating on you because you provide no actual arguments whatsoever, how many times do I have to repeat it to you?
    You can compare Castle to Sochan, I can compare him to Dejounte who had a way worse starting position than Castle in every single aspect of the game. And it wouldn't matter. Different players.

    Crazy how some of you guys went totally histerical after 2 summer league games and can't stand a bit of contradiction about Castle. It's like you want so much Castle to become that star that you hate on anybody trying to bring some moderation, sense and distance after two freaking summer league games where many guys who never made the NBA killed it.
    Stop strawmanning me now. I'm not going histerical if I say his ballhandling, passing, playmaking decisions are way better than advertised by most draft analysts and scouts because a lot of them had him as a wing and not a point guard.

    For dozenth time, I'm all for moderation, sense and distance if you provide some actual arguments why you don't think Castle will be a primary playmaker, then we can talk.
    Comparing him to Sochan isn't it.
    Summer league stats also aren't it. It's about eye test. Nothing he did happened because of his physical talents. He didn't blow by unathletic g-league scrubs, he got to the rim methodically and his passing decisions were excellent.

    Playmaking is the most difficult thing to improve. As they say, you're either born with it or you aren't. Castle showed us every single type of pass.
    From simple dump offs, to lobs, to cross court passes, to full sprint, one-handed passes, to passes that weren't the obvious decision to make.
    Yeah, it will be harder in the NBA, but passing IQ translates.
    Then when I linked a couple in-depth 30min videos, you obviously didn't watch them or reply.

    You also said he was never a point guard and that's just not true. He was a point guard throughout his development up until UConn.

    Then in your previous post you say Spurs don't need a primary ballhandler with Wemby while we're watching these Olympics preparation games and Wemby having to do everything by himself, which is obviously suboptimal.
    I guess when you say primary ballhandler you refer to heliocentric playmakers.

    Everybody said we needed shooting on this team
    And which shooters were available at #4?
    Risacher and Sheppard were gone, PATFO would never pick Dillingham because of his size.
    Others will be lucky if they become average shooters. I guess there was Carrington at #14, but he's a way inferior prospect and we got our share of shooting guards.

    We got our shooting in CP3 and Barnes.

    The NBA is filled with guys who can handle the ball.
    Again, for dozeth time, how many lead guards who are all-defense level are there in the league?
    Jrue, Derrick, SGA, Suggs, Edwards, Smart.
    That's it.
    And out of those 6, I'd say only first 3 are good enough to be actual point guards, other three don't have enough passing ability for it.

    Shooting is what will make the difference for Castle.
    And noone said it won't. Or that he'll magically become a good shooter during the summer. It will be a long process.

    It's just you instantly ting on everything we say because Castle is a bad shooter. We're all high on him because very few of us thought his playmaking skills will be so advanced right away.
    Is he ready to be the point guard in the NBA right away? Probably not. But unlike his shooting, it won't be a long process.
    Is he guaranteed to be Jrue/Jimmy two-way star hybrid? Obviously not. And he probably won't be. But you can't deny his slow and methodical penetration isn't similar to theirs. And then when someone says it's reminiscent of Jimmy, you jump in with no context and act as if someone said Castle is the next Jimmy.

    We all have our favorites and the players we dislike, but I'm not going to accept you quoting me with just whataboutisms without any arguments other than strawmans and Sochan comparisons.
    When I on Jeremy, I provide context because he's a horrible offensive player at any range, not just behind the 3pt line.

    And anyone who thinks Castle's playmaking is similar to Jeremy's is either blind or just trying to trigger people for the sake of it.

  4. #404
    Veteran SpursFan86's Avatar
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    I think it’s fairly simple tbh…

    Scenario 1: Castle hardly improves his shooting at all and is a total non-threat from the perimeter.
    Result: He tops out as a solid glue guy. Would essentially guarantee that either he or Sochan are bench players because having both of them in the starting lineup is almost certainly not optimal.

    Scenario 2: Castle becomes at least an average shooter. Let’s call it 35% from 3 on moderate volume. Teams aren’t going to be terrified of him shooting but they at least won’t totally ignore the possibility of him taking jumpers.
    Result: He’s a quality starter-level player. Probably not a top 3 option offensively, but he’d at least be a positive impact guy offensively…add in (presumably) elite defense and you have a great piece for a contender.

    Scenario 3: Castle becomes a good shooter. Shooting >=37% from 3 on solid volume even with teams putting in effort to not leave him open.
    Result: He’s likely all-star caliber in this scenario. Maybe not in terms of actually making the game but in terms of his overall impact I think he’d definitely be an all-star level player. High positive impact on both sides of the ball who can be put into pretty much any lineup without any concerns of poor fit.

    Obviously this is a bit of simplification but for the most part your outlook on Castle depends on the probabilities you assign to these 3 scenarios. I think anyone who isn’t biased would agree that scenarios 1 and 2 are the most likely. But is it 40/40/20? Is it 70/25/5? The answer is going to tell you how high you are on Castle.

    I think acting like he’s a no-brainer slam dunk in scenario 1 is a little silly, but so is acting like he’s out of the league in 3 years in that scenario. Depending on salaries it could mean keeping both him and Sochan is untenable.

  5. #405
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    I think it’s fairly simple tbh…

    Scenario 1: Castle hardly improves his shooting at all and is a total non-threat from the perimeter.
    Result: He tops out as a solid glue guy. Would essentially guarantee that either he or Sochan are bench players because having both of them in the starting lineup is almost certainly not optimal.

    Scenario 2: Castle becomes at least an average shooter. Let’s call it 35% from 3 on moderate volume. Teams aren’t going to be terrified of him shooting but they at least won’t totally ignore the possibility of him taking jumpers.
    Result: He’s a quality starter-level player. Probably not a top 3 option offensively, but he’d at least be a positive impact guy offensively…add in (presumably) elite defense and you have a great piece for a contender.

    Scenario 3: Castle becomes a good shooter. Shooting >=37% from 3 on solid volume even with teams putting in effort to not leave him open.
    Result: He’s likely all-star caliber in this scenario. Maybe not in terms of actually making the game but in terms of his overall impact I think he’d definitely be an all-star level player. High positive impact on both sides of the ball who can be put into pretty much any lineup without any concerns of poor fit.

    Obviously this is a bit of simplification but for the most part your outlook on Castle depends on the probabilities you assign to these 3 scenarios. I think anyone who isn’t biased would agree that scenarios 1 and 2 are the most likely. But is it 40/40/20? Is it 70/25/5? The answer is going to tell you how high you are on Castle.

    I think acting like he’s a no-brainer slam dunk in scenario 1 is a little silly, but so is acting like he’s out of the league in 3 years in that scenario. Depending on salaries it could mean keeping both him and Sochan is untenable.
    Based on his shooting form and his calm demeanor, Scenario 3 has over 50% chance of happening. Scenario 2 has 33%.

  6. #406
    Believe. LeBowen's Avatar
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    Castle has to develop a respectable shot, but his shot won't determine if he's an all-star.

    Since you're mentioning percentages, up until this season Fox was a career 32% 3pt shooter.
    Jrue was at 33% in his three peak seasons with Pelicans. Why Pelicans? Because he was the undisputed primary ballhandler with them, unlike Bucks or Celtics.
    Averaged 20/7 with elite defense. That should be Castle's target.
    Jimmy is a career 32% 3pt shooter and was seen as one of the best playoff performers in the league.

    If Castle can become one of the best point of attack defenders in the league and a good playmaker (let's say 6 to 8 assists with low turnovers), he'll be a high end starter even with low 30s from 3pt.
    If he learns how to use his size well, he'll be a huge mismatch because noone on our starting lineup will be under 6'6 and that's just a nightmare for every team with traditional size point guard.

  7. #407
    Veteran rjv's Avatar
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    i guess "let's see what happens" isn't a very exciting position to take.

  8. #408
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    Ofc that's the whole point. Spurs don't need a primary ball handler with Wemby in (that's one of the reasons some fans didn't want Tre) or another "postionless" guy like Sochan. And not like Castle is Kyrie, Stockton or prime CP3 either. He's not elite enough at playmaking if he doesn't fix his shooting issues. Again, it's not about being OK or good, but great. This is the freaking NBA.

    Everybody said we needed shooting on this team before the draft and everyone said players in this draft were all coming issues. Then spurs draft Castle and some fans are like "Who cares if he can't shoot in today's NBA! Look, our baby can handle the ball and cut in summer league vs. scrubs! Future HOFer! Gonna be great to see him do his show and make a brick contest with Sochan while opponents will triple team Wemby!"

    The NBA is filled with guys who can handle the ball. Shooting is what will make the difference for Castle. It's OK to do your thing in summer league where defenses are garbage and there's no scouting report, but Castle won't have all these lines and space if he can't shoot in the NBA. People will just clog the paint and dare him to shoot.
    Hmmm……. A lot of text. It takes more than shooting to be a quality nba player; castle has many talents including the most important basketball iq. Shooting may be a glaring weakness now but give it some time before writing him off.

  9. #409
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    Hmmm……. A lot of text. It takes more than shooting to be a quality nba player; castle has many talents including the most important basketball iq. Shooting may be a glaring weakness now but give it some time before writing him off.
    agree. He's only 19. Can't say he won't improve shooting. What is impressive is his strength, athletic ability, patience in the pain, and court vision.. shooting is way easier to improve than those

  10. #410
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    Castle has to develop a respectable shot, but his shot won't determine if he's an all-star.

    Since you're mentioning percentages, up until this season Fox was a career 32% 3pt shooter.
    Jrue was at 33% in his three peak seasons with Pelicans. Why Pelicans? Because he was the undisputed primary ballhandler with them, unlike Bucks or Celtics.
    Averaged 20/7 with elite defense. That should be Castle's target.
    Jimmy is a career 32% 3pt shooter and was seen as one of the best playoff performers in the league.

    If Castle can become one of the best point of attack defenders in the league and a good playmaker (let's say 6 to 8 assists with low turnovers), he'll be a high end starter even with low 30s from 3pt.
    If he learns how to use his size well, he'll be a huge mismatch because noone on our starting lineup will be under 6'6 and that's just a nightmare for every team with traditional size point guard.
    Right on. There's a template for this player already and not to get too ahead of ourselves, but Castle is bigger than Holiday and had more success in his college season and is more of a playmaker than Butler. Whatever the results are, these are the players to tab.

    Castle's route to NBA success doesn't really depend on his jumper. His steps to success are already present, only relying on improvement and adapting. Too many of us are obsessed with shooting and the short term, as if getting a single-skill shooter in will fix everything next year. It won't.

    Castle's success, if he hits, will be lasting and long-term, and that's independent of how well he shoots. He already gets huge amounts of space in basic pick-and-rolls. Even if he just develops a midrange - which I think is highly likely, as it looks very good - then he's a lot of trouble. Playing next to Wembanyama, who is also a developing long range threat, it's a lot for a defense to handle.

    Castle is going to find the floor, a lot, simply with the package he already has. If he becomes any level of threat to be accounted for from deep, there's a major threat. There continues to be a misperception of him as a wing, when he's going to be part of the top of the key playmaking process.

  11. #411
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    Right on. There's a template for this player already and not to get too ahead of ourselves, but Castle is bigger than Holiday and had more success in his college season and is more of a playmaker than Butler. Whatever the results are, these are the players to tab.

    Castle's route to NBA success doesn't really depend on his jumper. His steps to success are already present, only relying on improvement and adapting. Too many of us are obsessed with shooting and the short term, as if getting a single-skill shooter in will fix everything next year. It won't.

    Castle's success, if he hits, will be lasting and long-term, and that's independent of how well he shoots. He already gets huge amounts of space in basic pick-and-rolls. Even if he just develops a midrange - which I think is highly likely, as it looks very good - then he's a lot of trouble. Playing next to Wembanyama, who is also a developing long range threat, it's a lot for a defense to handle.

    Castle is going to find the floor, a lot, simply with the package he already has. If he becomes any level of threat to be accounted for from deep, there's a major threat. There continues to be a misperception of him as a wing, when he's going to be part of the top of the key playmaking process.

    I don't get this. Not only has he said he wants to play PG, but he will need to shoot better and his size will be little advantage (maybe a disadvantage) as a wing. As said earlier, if he can run the point and even shoot 30% from 3, he will be a match up nightmare. It would be a disappointment if he is used primarily as a wing.

  12. #412
    Remember Cherokee Parks The Truth #6's Avatar
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    i guess "let's see what happens" isn't a very exciting position to take.
    Lol. True.

  13. #413
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    Castle has to develop a respectable shot, but his shot won't determine if he's an all-star.

    Since you're mentioning percentages, up until this season Fox was a career 32% 3pt shooter.
    Jrue was at 33% in his three peak seasons with Pelicans. Why Pelicans? Because he was the undisputed primary ballhandler with them, unlike Bucks or Celtics.
    Averaged 20/7 with elite defense. That should be Castle's target.
    Jimmy is a career 32% 3pt shooter and was seen as one of the best playoff performers in the league.

    If Castle can become one of the best point of attack defenders in the league and a good playmaker (let's say 6 to 8 assists with low turnovers), he'll be a high end starter even with low 30s from 3pt.
    If he learns how to use his size well, he'll be a huge mismatch because noone on our starting lineup will be under 6'6 and that's just a nightmare for every team with traditional size point guard.
    Maybe so, but more importantly, his shot will determine whether he can be a key cog on a championship contender or an attractive enough piece to be in (headline?) a package for one.

    I don't get this. Not only has he said he wants to play PG, but he will need to shoot better and his size will be little advantage (maybe a disadvantage) as a wing. As said earlier, if he can run the point and even shoot 30% from 3, he will be a match up nightmare. It would be a disappointment if he is used primarily as a wing.
    Who cares what he wants? Most want to play the glamor role and he's not a good enough prospect for them to concern themselves with that.

    So long as Paul and Jones stay relatively healthy, he's going to be primarily playing off ball next season.

  14. #414
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    i guess "let's see what happens" isn't a very exciting position to take.
    j


    Pretty much every draft pick not named Wemby...

  15. #415
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    Dude isn’t going to be a good defender next year. It’s gonna take 4 years for Castle to be considered an above average point guard. If at all. I’m not at all high on this pick.

  16. #416
    Veteran exstatic's Avatar
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    Dude isn’t going to be a good defender next year. It’s gonna take 4 years for Castle to be considered an above average point guard. If at all. I’m not at all high on this pick.
    That makes me feel so much better. Your takes are usually knee jerk and pessimistic. I would have worried if you liked him.

  17. #417
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    That makes me feel so much better. Your takes are usually knee jerk and pessimistic. I would have worried if you liked him.
    And also right. I’m only pessimistic bc what I said 5 years ago has turned out to be true. I would’ve loved to have been wrong that we would still be a bad franchise in 2024. That we are a badly run organization from ownership, management, coaching, and majority of players (Wemby aside).

    I also did proclaim before the draft that we were going to get the #1 pick and get Wemby so I’m not all pessimistic

    To me, point guard defense is overrated. People on here are acting like he’s going to be some savior on the defensive end. Like Castle will just come in and play all nba defense. I mean look who he’s constantly being compared to, top tier defenders. I just don’t think he will be that. I don’t think he will be a bad defender just not all world and certainly not enough for it to excuse his lack of a jumper.

  18. #418
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  19. #419
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    And also right. I’m only pessimistic bc what I said 5 years ago has turned out to be true. I would’ve loved to have been wrong that we would still be a bad franchise in 2024. That we are a badly run organization from ownership, management, coaching, and majority of players (Wemby aside).

    I also did proclaim before the draft that we were going to get the #1 pick and get Wemby so I’m not all pessimistic

    To me, point guard defense is overrated. People on here are acting like he’s going to be some savior on the defensive end. Like Castle will just come in and play all nba defense. I mean look who he’s constantly being compared to, top tier defenders. I just don’t think he will be that. I don’t think he will be a bad defender just not all world and certainly not enough for it to excuse his lack of a jumper.
    The thing is, it doesn't even matter if he is an elite POA defender, because in the "target" ball era it's all about your weakest link (aka small/weak guard and/or slow footed big).

    Building a core without one usually results in a trade off of spacing and/or shot creation.

    Only the Celtics and Thunder have been able to pull off the best of both worlds, but it took a lot of fortune to do so.

  20. #420
    Costly Mistakes JPB's Avatar
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    I completely stopped replying to your nonsense about Castle in which you provide zero arguments and you keep quoting me on the matter with nothing but whataboutisms and projections based on nothing but your subjective opinions.

    the (simple) argument is overraction and lack of distance about our prospects.
    You, about sochan in 2022 (Spoiler: this is "embarassing"):

    What do you define as star? An all-star? Sure.
    First or 1A/1B option on a legit contender? We'll see. Not the Spurs way, anyway.

    His defense is just ridiculous for a rookie. If nothing goes wrong, he'll easily be the best defender in the league in 3 to 5 years.

    I don't really watch college or bother with all the potential picks we don't get, so his playmaking really surprised me. If he's this good so early on, he can become a legit secondary ballhandler.
    I don't think he'll ever run the point, but I'd like to be surprised.

    Call me biased, but after watching all these kids so far, if I had to do a redraft I'd even take him as the first pick.
    It's way easier to turn an elite defender into a star on offense than the other way around. Nephew and Jimmy being the best examples.
    How many elite scorers developed into elite defenders later on?
    That's what I mean about distance, moderation and not overacting but waiting and seeing how our prospects actually develop.

    I sure hope Castle becomes a legit contributor but I need way much more than 2 summer league games to say so and tag him as future star despite his current poor shooting and lack of defined position just because WE drafted him.
    Last edited by JPB; 07-25-2024 at 01:03 PM.

  21. #421
    Believe. LeBowen's Avatar
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    the (simple) argument is overraction and lack of distance about our prospects.
    You, about sochan in 2022 (Spoiler: this is "embarassing"):



    That's what I mean about distance, moderation and not overacting but waiting and seeing how our prospects actually develop.

    I sure hope Castle becomes a legit contributor but I need way much more than 2 summer league games to say so and tag him as future star despite his current poor shooting and lack of defined position just because WE drafted him.
    Go yourself, I already told you.
    Spineless pussy who ghosts a dozen attempts of an argumented discussion and pulls out a bad take from two years ago.

    When I get the time, I'm going to find every single of your horrible takes and just keep pasting them wherever you post.
    Just because you're a coward who ghosts and changes subjects.

  22. #422
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    I now pronounce you an old married couple congrats!


  23. #423
    Starter off the bench Uriel's Avatar
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    I think it’s fairly simple tbh…

    Scenario 1: Castle hardly improves his shooting at all and is a total non-threat from the perimeter.
    Result: He tops out as a solid glue guy. Would essentially guarantee that either he or Sochan are bench players because having both of them in the starting lineup is almost certainly not optimal.

    Scenario 2: Castle becomes at least an average shooter. Let’s call it 35% from 3 on moderate volume. Teams aren’t going to be terrified of him shooting but they at least won’t totally ignore the possibility of him taking jumpers.
    Result: He’s a quality starter-level player. Probably not a top 3 option offensively, but he’d at least be a positive impact guy offensively…add in (presumably) elite defense and you have a great piece for a contender.

    Scenario 3: Castle becomes a good shooter. Shooting >=37% from 3 on solid volume even with teams putting in effort to not leave him open.
    Result: He’s likely all-star caliber in this scenario. Maybe not in terms of actually making the game but in terms of his overall impact I think he’d definitely be an all-star level player. High positive impact on both sides of the ball who can be put into pretty much any lineup without any concerns of poor fit.

    Obviously this is a bit of simplification but for the most part your outlook on Castle depends on the probabilities you assign to these 3 scenarios. I think anyone who isn’t biased would agree that scenarios 1 and 2 are the most likely. But is it 40/40/20? Is it 70/25/5? The answer is going to tell you how high you are on Castle.

    I think acting like he’s a no-brainer slam dunk in scenario 1 is a little silly, but so is acting like he’s out of the league in 3 years in that scenario. Depending on salaries it could mean keeping both him and Sochan is untenable.
    I think Scenario 2 is by far the most likely. I’d even say it’s a 20-60-20 split for each of the three scenarios.

    Keep in mind that Castle’s shooting form looks good and he is renowned for his work ethic.

  24. #424
    Veteran scott's Avatar
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    I'm excited to see what Castle offers and I'm glad we picked him at 4... but I also think we're delusional to not acknowledge their is a non-zero probability that he's a complete bust (this is true among everyone drafted this year).

  25. #425
    Body Of Work Mr. Body's Avatar
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    I would be completely stunned if Castle is a bust.

    There's not another player in this draft that I'm convinced will carve out at least a solid long-term role in this league.

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