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I thought we were only supposed to give ourselves over to Christ. What gives??????
Read the rest of the quote dumbass.
Read the rest of the quote dumbass.
I did, the rest of the quote doesn't change the meaning, IMO, and please don't call me names.
The quote says she'll just give us over to Jesus, why is that hard to understand?
Maybe because I'm dumb, I don't know. My understanding is that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. The way that quote reads, I have to go through Mary to get to Jesus??
The way that quotes reads is that Mary is there to greet us, make us feel comfortable, then she'll let us see Jesus.
Eitherway, Jesus never hinted to such a detour.
It will always be about two opposing views-
To some: if it's not in the Bible, it can not be valid.
To others: if it's not in opposition to the Bible, it can be valid.
Some get it, some don't. You can explain it till you're blue in the face and they still won't get it.
I don't know Joe. Throughout this thread smeagol and Ploto insisted that Catholics don't pray to Mary. I said that I know several Catholics that pray to Mary and they said they aren't praying to Mary but just asking her to pray for them, that praying to her is wrong - a sin. And then you said:
So, is Joe doing something wrong according to the Catholic faith?
I think we better hope God isn't a God of technicalities.
True, and I'm getting blue in the face (and so is H)
These exercises in debate are good to hone one's apologetic skills. One should take ownership of one's faith and know how to defend it.
I hear this all the time...Catholics pray to idols, Saints, etc...but I don't see it that way. I pray for the Virgin Mary's guidance and protection since she is the Mother of Jesus and when she appeared to Juan Diego she told him directly that we are all her children and that is what I believe.
I don't think I am and I've never been told differently by any Priest or Bishop I've ever spoken to. But I do carry a picture of La Virgen de Guadalupe everywhere I go because I feel at ease.
True, and I'm getting blue in the face (and so is H
My tonal mood varies from blue to purple and occasionally green (if something outright makes me sick to the stomach)...
I really think it has to do with the meaning of the word Pray. I don't think that Catholics "pray" to her in the way the word might be taken literally. That is why I don't word it that way because I don't want to be misunderstood. At least to me- it is not the same thing as when I pray to God. I don't believe she has the Power of God- I don't worship her or ask for her forgiveness. I do believe, though, that she has a unique role in salvation history and that she is the Mother of the Savior. When Jesus said at the cross- Behold, your Mother- the Church believes that she was given as the Mother to us all. Eve was our natural Mother, but in becoming Jesus' brethren, Mary is our spiritual mother.
We have not even delved into the apearances of Mary, but a lot of what Protestants see that bothers them is related- I think -to people's response to those appearances and to the belief that Mary came to deliver a message to their people.
I also never mentioned before about Mary's perpetual virginity- I was taught that in early Church writings those siblings are attributed as Jospeh's children from a previous marriage, but I don't have the motivation right now to look that up.
I also think that alot of people have been bothered by the notion that a statue is an idol- but it's not. The person is not praying TO the statue and expecting the statue of its own power to perform some miraculous thing. If physical items remind us or deepen our ability to focus, then they aren't being used as idols. Many religions have prayer beeds or prayer ropes.
The main thing to me is this- if it all leads TO Christ then why the big uproar. I know you will say- but you can go directly to him without any "aid"-but can't you also have means to help you get there. Can't music help- or incense.
I guess my question really is- if it works for millions of people for thousands of years and can inspire someone like Mother Teresa to do what she did- why do people of other Chrisitan denominations need to spend so much time trying to knock it down. Is it perfect- of course not- but last time I checked, your religion wasn't perfect either with perfect leaders who never sin.
I am honest about my faith- and am willing to look at it with a sincere eye as to its strengths and weaknesses. But people from outside who often really only have half-truths and spew forth propaganda are not serving a useful purpose to the discourse. Agian, I ask, why do some Protestants seem to care so much about what the Catholics are doing? No offense, but I don't really care how you worship at your Church. If it works for you and brings about the desired result, then I am fine with it and see no need to attack it.
Well, mine works for me- and I don't want this to sound wrong- but if my faith can get me thorugh the past couple of years then there obviously is something amazingy right about it- if it can lead me to be able to forgive someone for what he did- then it must be doing something right.
That's fine and all... no one is asking you to denounce your faith.
With regards to the bolded part.... ahhhh therein lies the difference. It is your ins ution which claims that protestants have fallen out of GOD's grace simply because they don't partake of the RCC's sacraments. So while you may not care how we worship... and that is your GOD-given perogative. It is not you or any other prac ioner that has raised the 'ire' of protestant believers; it is the arrogance of an ins ution that has always attempted to claim that our connection to GOD is not authentic.
So while I may be buddies with Catholics (and I have several Catholic friends) that doesn't mean that I accept the teachings of their ins ution. Nor does it imply that I have to 'convert' them...
I guess I'll join the fun here and throw in my two cents.
The Virgin Mary is quite significant and blessed for the obvious reason that she gave birth to the Son of God, the Saviour of Mankind. For me, her significance begins and ends there.
I can't imagine anyone reading the Bible independently, without the instruction or indoctrination of someone else, and have them come to the conclusion that Mary's significance goes beyond her being called "Blessed" and "honored" for birthing our Saviour Jesus Christ. It's just not there.
Like many of us her I've read the Bible through several times, and the Gospels dozens of times, and have found nothing that would suggest otherwise.
Hardly any mention of her. No healing, no raising of the dead or being raised from the dead, no magnificent sermons or instruction on how to live, pray, etc. No claims of being the only mediator between man and God.
The Scriptures attention to, and focus on the life of Mary, beyond her being the mother of Christ, is more or less a blank slate.
It pretty much ends with Christ telling John that she is his mother and telling Mary that John is her son (and one of many that witnessed Christ the Resurrected). Quite touching, but I believe it to be definitive that she went out in a rather incon uous manner.
Therein again lies the problem with this entire discussion-- Catholics do not believe this.No healing, no raising of the dead.. no claims of being the only mediator between man and God.
And for the record- I may be Roman Catholic- but I have read the Bible cover to cover many more times that just about anyone in this thread can claim- if for no other reason than my age, my compulsiveness, and the years I have been doing it. I have taken courses in scripture from theologians with a lot more training than anyone in this thread.
I do not believe the Catholic Church teaches that Protestants have fallen out of God's grace. I would say that the Church teaches that you are not in full Union.
Similarly, some Protestants- including prominent leaders- have said that Catholics are not Christians because of the sacramental nature of their worship- which by the way should include the Orthodox churches, as well, but somehow they don't seem to care about them.
Being called blasphemous for my faith comes awfully close.
Let's cut to the chase.
Hector, are your beliefs 100% correct, and thusly, Catholic beliefs less than 100% correct?
$20 says you can't reply with two or three letters.
The result of the Reformation is 20,000 groups of Christians claiming they preach the truth. Maybe this is what God wanted. I doubt it, though.
I think what God wants is for disputable matters not to create division.
For many, religion is emotional, more than spiritual.
Is that a problem?
Is that THE problem?
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