Smith played for 6 teams in his 10 year career. After he was separated from Hakeem in Houston at the age of only 30, he only lasted one more year in the NBA, bouncing from team to team before figuring out he wasn't wanted. He never played in the NBA again. What does that tell you about teh value of his playing with Hakeem? How many guards at age 30 are deemed useless by the NBA?
Maxwell was so highly regarded that he was sold by the Spurs for $50,000 cash to Houston.
As for Drexler, his shooting %'s his last 3 year in Portland:
43%
43%
42%
Then after the 95 trade the rest of that season paired with Hakeem he shot 51% from the field and 49% in the playoffs after shooting in the low 40's his 2 previous postseasons with Portland.
I'd call that making your teammates a uva lot better. How often do you see a guy's efficiency make a huge jump like that in the latter end of their career? You mention his PPG staying the same from Portland to Houston? Well, uh, when your #'s dont decline despite going from the clearcut #1 option to the #2 option behind a 28 ppg scorer I'd say your level of play is clearly increasing.
Also, trying to prorate a guy's minutes who gets 10-15 mins a game like Horry does to 40 minutes is ridiculous. There's going to be a dropoff in productivity when you play longer minutes. If you just prorate a reserve's minutes to 40 mpg guys like Reggie Evans and Dikembe Mutombo become amongts the top rebounding guys in the league when this wouldnt happen if they logged that many minutes.
Again, you conveniently ignore Horry's FG% from the analysis. He shot a much, much higher % from the field paired with Hakeem, due to getting easier looks at the basket from collapsing double and triple teams.
Your Robinson comments are also pointless. Did Robinson make his teammates better? Yes, he did. Did he do so to the extent of a Hakeem or Duncan? freaking no. A dominant postplayer opens the game up for teammates in a much greater fashion than a face up big man like KG or Robinson. Guys like DRob/KG dont have the skill sets to be great postseason players and the proof was in the pudding. Look at how their 2 #'s dropped off so dramatically in postseason play.
Kenny Smith's career was already on free fall while he was with Houston. And there are plenty of guards who are deemed useless at age 30. Norm Nixon was essentially out of the league by 30, ditto Johnny Dawkins.
Vinny Del Negro's career was similar, only he lasted a few more years because he left SA later than Smith left Houston.
And this still doesn't change the fact that he averaged 17 while he was young and with the Kings.
Because the Spurs had Willie Anderson, Sean Elliott, Rod Strickland/Maurice Cheeks, and Maxwell is crazy? There was never any doubt about his talent, he's like Artest in that way, just not as extreme.
And then the next few years he shot 43, 44 and 42. Was that because of Hakeem too?
And let's see, if you have a big man givingyou open looks, wouldn't you shoot much much better from 3s? Then why did Drexler shot the same that year before and afterhis trade from Portland? Perhaps another way to look at it was because he had Smith and Maxwell spreading the floor for to open up the driving lanes for him, when Drexler, throughout his career, was known as a penetrating guard, huh?
Why was the ridiculous? We all know Horry wouldn'thave the same level of production with long minutes strictly because of stamina, not because of skills. While he was 25 years old, stamina wouldn't be a problem, right? Same with Mutombo, he WAS a top rebounding guy before, and now, he could still do it if his body can hold up.
And of course he shot better when he was with Houston, because he was driving more, and when he got old, he could no longer do it. Want proof? Out of 11.7 FGA in his rookie year, 0.8 of them were 3 pters. His last year in Houston, out of 11.1 FGA, 5.9 were 3 pters, and his FG% went from 47.4 to 41.0. When he was in LA, about 40% of his shots were 3pters, while in SA, the number increased to about 50%.
Like how Hakeem spread the floor for Drexler to drive? And how Elliott's 3pt% always hovers around 35 to 40%, except when he was in Detroit, where he shot 30%? And how the Rifleman still had career highs in 3pt% during the tail end of his career? I wonder why ..... maybe because in the postseason, other teams figured, hey, these other guys can't shoot from the outside, just pack the lane, and see how they react.
It worked in every single season against the Spurs, except Robinson's rookie year because he actually had decent teammates that year. It worked against Houston too, until Smith and Maxwell made teams pay.
Yeah, Maxwell really made teams pay with his sub 40% shooting and low 30% from 3.
Maxwell is the one who opened up the floor for Drexler in 95, not Hakeem.
Oh whoops, Maxwell quit on the team that year and wasn't even on the squad.
Where do you come up with this erroneous nonsense?
Explain to me how the Drexler's FG% went up 7-8 points in 1995 after the trade. I don't want to hear what happened in 96, 97, and 98 when Drexler was in his mid 30's and his knees were breaking down.
Robinson has no reason to be in discussion. He was a clearly inferior player to Hakeem in every aspect of the game and inferior to Duncan as well...
Good NBA players don't get sold for $50,000 cash regardless of whatever ridiculous spin you are trying to put on it.
What's utterly ridiculous and incomprehensible is Spur fan saying Houston 3 point shooters got free not because of Hakeem because of the awesome creating skills of a spot up shooting PG like Smith and Vernon Maxwell.
But then the Spurs outside shooting success is all because of Duncan, nevermind that Parker and Ginobili are INFINITELY better penetrating and creating guards than a spot up 3 pt shooter like Smith and a jacker like Maxwell.
Just ridiculous.
Hakeem was a better overall player than Duncan in the primes of their respective careers. Hakeem redefined the center position because of his quickness, footwork and athleticism. I also read somewhere that Michael Jordan would've taken Hakeem as his fantasy center on his team, over Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, etc. because he was so well rounded.
Damn, that settles it. The opinion of spurstalk posters>former nba players with championship experience.
This comparison of TD and Hakeem is apples to oranges.
If Hakeem played PF like TD, then it is a legitimate comparison to make.
Maxwell didn't quit on the team, he was suspended and then was replaced by Drexler at the starting lineup very late in the season. He played till late March and was an integral part of the team, including the games he played with Drexler. And Allen Iverson shot a dismal % from the field and 3, I am sure he has been utterly useless for the 6ers all these years.
Drexler's % went up for half a season, and then dipped the following 3, despite playing all 3.5 of them with Hakeem, so you can conclusively say that Hakeem made Drexler MUCH better. Perhaps because role players, like Kenny Smith starts to suck eggs in 95-96, and left Houston after that, or maybe Maxwell was off the team and that didn't open up the lanes like the 94-95 season? Ever thought that Drexler benefited as being in a perfect situation with the right team? No question the whole team revolves around Hakeem, but ever thought how the role players made Hakeem better and more effective as well? How else can you explain Hakeem's 3 best scoring seasons (92-93, 93-94 and 94-95), coincided with Kenny Smith's three best 3p % seasons? Or Maxwell's three best seasons?
And why was Robinson clearly inferior? Before his injury, in 96, he had better statistics than Hakeem did, his team had a better overall record than Hakeem's team despite way inferior supporting casts, he never had a decent coach outside of Larry Brown. Why? They even had similar numbers head to head.
And why can't good role players be sold for $50,000? Rick Barry was traded for a pick and cash, Dr. J himself was sold for $3mil in cash, Chamberlain was traded for 3 nobodies, I am sure you can judge a player by who he was traded for.
What is so ridiculous about that? All the plaers benefitted from the system. The Rockets plan was simple, have Hakeem in the middle, and the 3 point shooters bomb away. The Spurs had the exact game plan with Duncan instead from 99 to 04, and it was proven that without 3 pt shooters, the Spurs don't win. The same was true for Hakeem and the Rockets.
The only difference is that Hakeem's scoring averaged fluctuated greatly depending on the accuracy of the shooters, Duncan's apparently had little correlation.
It is obvious that Drexler wouldn't have the driving lanes by having Hakeem in the middle and no 3 pt shooters to open up the lanes, which is exactly what happened to the Spurs in 04 vs. the Lakers. Did Duncan open up the driving lanes for Parker? How is that even possible? Only Hakeem homers would attribute every little bit of success to Rockets and its players to Hakeem.
You need to check your facts.
Maxwell did quit on the team in the playoffs. That is a fact.
Comparing Maxwell to Iverson in anyway, shape, or form is a joke.
Robinson was clearly inferior to Hakeem; it doesnt even warrant a discussion. Keep living in denial. He did not have better stats than Hakeem. In fact his playoff stats were dramatically inferior to Hakeem, which is what you'd expect from a guy who's game didnt translate to the postseason, like DRob.
DRob was a guy who was killed by Malone and Hakeem in the playoffs in the 90's everytime he faced them. He came up small when the Spurs needed him the most. Great players step up their play in the clutch and postseason. Shaq did, Duncan did, Hakeem did, etc, etc. Robinson most assuredly did not.
Still have yet to hear an explanation for why this great role player Kenny Smith couldn't even stick with an NBA team once Hakeem wasn't there to cover up his weaknesses. At age 31, he was out of the league. The answer is that he sucked.
You need to go back and look at the stats, Hakeem's so called 3 point shooters sucked ass. Drexler shot a massive 33% in 95-96. Maxwell shot 32% in 94-95, Horry shot 36-37% which isn't much better, Sam Cassel 33-34%, Elie 32% in 95-96, etc. The only one that ever shot a respectable percentage was Kenny Smith in 94-95, he shot 42.9%. And like Bobbyjoe pointed out, what happened to him after Hakeem?
rofl What are you, like 14 years old? Honestly. Watch the NBA much?
#1) He doesn't guard them because he doesn't need to. This should be obvious to anyone. Why on earth would you want to risk him getting in early foul trouble? He will usually switch off to the best low post player in the 4th quarter, when the game is on the line, and it matters. This is common of the Spurs to coast until the 4th quarter and then try to take over the game. It's actually came back to bite them on many occasion, for which I blame Popovich, but that's a completely different issue.
#2) They aren't. Look at PER. PER is the be all and end all in basketball these days as far as stats go, if you're going purely on stats alone.
#3) Because that was a different point in their careers, for both players. Elie played with Duncan when he was essentially a rookie. Horry played with Hakeem for his dominant 2-YEAR stretch and not much else. Plus, no offense to Horry, but you can tell he isn't the smartest guy. I mean, the guy clearly has the IQ of a rock. Any time you hear him talk it's "errrr gaa eh shucks!" he's never articulate in anything he says, nor is he ever intelligent.
Arguments about the teemates is not worth nothing caouse you can use it for both sides of the arguing sides.
Just a one thought.
He only had 5 perimeter players playing heavy minutes shoot over 30%? That really really suck ass.
Guess how many the Spurs had in 94-95? They had 4, and one of them was David Robinson himself. Elliott shot 40.8%, Del Negro 40.7%, then Person was at 38.7, and finally Robinson was at 30%. So if the Rockets shooter sucked ass, what does that have to say about Robinson’s supporting cast?
Let’s also look at the sharpshooting Spurs in 03. Bowen was at 44.1% (making a whopping 1.2 a game), Ginobili at 34.5, Parker at 33.7, and Jackson at 32.0.
So what happened to Jaren Jackson after he left the Spurs? What happened to Johnson before he joined the Spurs? Oh yes, he was playing as a third string guard with the Rockets and got cut! Guess Hakeem couldn’t make him better like Robinson could.
Comparing Maxwell to Iverson in anyway, shape, or form is a joke.
Maxwell was suspended for 10 games after going in the stands to punch out a fan who said nasty thing about his daughter. He came back, and never got back in the lineup. This still doesn’t change the fact that he played more than 60 games in 95 and helped Clyde Drexler in the role.
And why is comparing Maxwell to Iverson a joke. You brought up Maxwell’s crappy FG% and 3p% as proof that he doesn’t help the Rockets, Iverson was just as bad, so why is he not a detriment to the 6ers? What about Marbury? , Horry wasn’t shooting that well for the Spurs the last couple of seasons.
And why was Robinson “clearly inferior”?
You noted that Duncan < Hakeem despite having 2 more rings because he got inferior stats, after people brought up PER, you proceed to say that PERs are useless and the level of compe ion is different. So I am bringing in David Robinson, and the following are the stats between the two centers from 90 to 96:
Robinson Hakeem
90 24.3/12/3.9 25.5/14.7/4.8 (Hakeem)
91 25.6/13/3.9 23/14.9/4.3 (Robinson)
92 23.2/12.2/4.5 22.9/12.8/4.6 (Robinson)
93 23.4/11.7/3.2 26.4/13.2/4.2 (Hakeem)
94 29.8/10.7/3.3 26.7/11.7/3.6 (Robinson)
95 27.6/10.8/3.2 28.1/10.9/3.4 (Hakeem)
96 25.0/12.2/3.3 27.7/11.2/3.0 (Tie)
So these are the stats from the same era, against the same compe ion. Why was Robinson clearly inferior? During the same period, Hakeem was All-NBA twice, Robinson 4 times. So why was Robinson clearly inferior?
Oh yes, he sucked so much that he was drafted 6th overall, and then averaged 17 ppg for the Kings before he joined the Rockets. Yeah, that really sucked.
You want to talk about Jaren Jackson? The hero in the 99 playoffs?
Hmmm, because Robinson sucked eggs in the playoffs and Hakeem didnt? Robinson's Playoff PER was dramatically lower than Olajuwons.
Nice comparison to Jaren Jackson who was Duncan's teammate for a year or 2 whereas Kenny Smith was Hakeem's starting PG the majority of his career, for about 7 years. Brilliant.
Seriously, what's your obsession with comparing Robrinson to Hakeem? That's just a joke.
Do you ever even listen to how ridiculous you sound? Your orgiinal argument was that Maxwell "opened up the floor for Hakeem with his accurate shooting". When this nonsense was debunked because it was shown that Maxwell'ls ability to shoot from the perimiter was clearly poor by league standards, you go on some useless tirade about how Iverson didn't shoot well either?
WTF does that have to with your original erroneous statement that "Maxwell opened up the floor for Hakeem?
Uh, newsflash, teams are more worried about a 7 foot center who shoots 53% from the field and dominates people night in and night out than a 30% 3 point streak shooter who was consistently a sub 40% shooter from the field every single year.
Is your strategy just to try to divert when your arguments are just shot down?
Do you still maintain that a 30% 3 point shooter "opened up the inside" for Hakeem?
I guess Sam Bowie didnt suck because he was drafted 2nd. Neither did Darko. Draft position is all that matters in determining quality of a player?
With all the drivel you've posted, there's still not one solid reasonable explanation for why a gem like Kenny Smith was kicked out of the NBA at age 31, once he wasn't on Olajuwon's team anymore. Why did 30 NBA GM's disagree with you so much about his value that he wasn't even worth a roster spot? Were they not privy to the most important note concerning his career, that he was drafted 6th overall?!?!
Great players in the past always matched up with the best big man on the opposing team. Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, etc always went head to head. Duncan doesn't for fear of foul trouble, in other words he has trouble guarding them and can't stay out of foul trouble. Duncan is not a great 1on1 defender, Spur fans especially should know this. He is a great team defender, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Efficiency_Rating
"Bear in mind that this rating is not the final, once-and-for-all answer for a player's accomplishments during the season."
Hakeems stat's during his best 10-12 years were better than anything Duncan has put up in any of his prime years. It's not objective or debatable. Look it up, Hakeem had more ppg, rpg, spg, fg%, ft%, bpg, just about every stat imaginable.
at your Horry comments. The guy is one of the smartest basketball players in the league, that's how he made it so far in this league without much athleticism.
It illustrates that Duncan made journeyman like Jaren Jackson better as much as Olajuwon makes Kenny Smith. You make it should like Smith would only have succeeded with Olajuwon, when I can pull out a guy like Jaren Jackson, who has never amounted to anything before, and had never amounted to anything since playing with Duncan.
It’s to show your inconsistency in comparing players. So Hakeem > Duncan because of stats, and we can disregard the rings, while Robinson < Hakeem despite similar stats?
I am also interested in seeing how you would rank SHaq in all of this.
I do not recall saying that I said Maxwell’s shooting was accurate, and I said he opened up the floor for Drexler, not Hakeem. So let me get this straight, Drexler is known for driving into the lane, and you are contending that Hakeem opened up the floor for him by clogging the lane and not being a particularly stellar passer? Ever occurred to you that the reason Drexler had room to drive was because defenders were out defending Horry, Smith and Maxwell, thus opening up the floor for Drexler to drive and not jumping in to cut him off? This was exactly how the Lakers shut off Parker in 04. Did Duncan’s work in the middle open up the lanes for Parker? Of course not, I am not going to pretend he did.
YOU were the one who somehow concluded I said Maxwell’s shooting was accurate, and said how his terrible FG% and 3P% did not help the Rockets.
Let’s see, expected value of 53% 2 pt shooting = 1.15, expected value of 33% 3 pt shooting = 1 pt, doesn’t seem to be that much of a difference. And yes, Hakeem opened up the floor for Maxwell, no question about it.
Read what I wrote, he opened up the floor for Drexler to drive. And what is wrong with a 30% shooter opening up the floor? The man averages more than 2 3PM a games, that’s somewhere around 6 to 9 points a game. Are you saying teams are not going to guard that?
Did Sam Bowie average 17ppg for any seasons? I wasn't aware of that. Was he all-rookie 1st team?
And why do I have to explain why teams didn't sign Smith? He was finished, that's all.
My, this thread is still alive? I don’t think anyone will change anyone else’s minds, but I do have the following questions for some posters.
Are the Spurs a better defensive team than the 90’s Bulls, Rockets or Knicks? Also, how was Duncan the defensive anchor when Robinson was on the team? He was clearly the one checking top pivots while Bowen checked top perimeter players. If Duncan is the anchor when his coaches use others to protect him from difficult assignments (i.e. Shaq, Dirk, Amare, etc), then what is Hakeem, when he was clearly the one taking on those assignments?
And I don’t undervalue the Spurs. I just recognize that their teams have less talent in comparison to the championship teams of the 90’s and definitely to the ones of the 80’s. They are a great team relative to their era…which is all they need to be.
These kind of comments make me laugh. So Hakeem benefited from MJ being gone, yet all of Duncan’s les came when MJ was either retired or near the age of 40? This is why I think it makes no sense to mention the 4 rings to 2 unless you bring up the era that they were won in. It is not like you are comparing a player who has won to one who hasn’t. It is quite arguable that Hakeem won his les in a tougher era, and against better compe ion. Even using your argument, Hakeem still had to go through Stockton & Malone, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, KJ & Barkley when MJ was missing. Yet you will honestly say he had an easier time winning les, especially at his position (where he had to play both sides of the court)?
So far all the people saying Duncan is a better teammate and gets folks involved more than Hakeem, are you basically saying Horry and Elie (who played with both) are full of crap? Both have stated Hakeem was the best, and Horry also played with Shaq. So you, the fan, are right basically…and the only dudes to go through 82 games and a postseason with both is off his rocker? Please don’t give me the “they were at different stages of their careers argument”, unless you can tie in how that impacts their ability to say which player was better.
Are ya serious? First off, the Houston market is bigger than the SA one, but it really isn’t that big. It’s so “large” that when the Rockets won their first le SI didn’t even put out a championship edition (until the entire city threatened to cancel subscriptions) and just had a blurb on the cover, next to soccer of all things. Robinson got way more media love than Dream in their day, mainly because Dream just wasn’t that marketable (foreigner with a heavy accent not located in a media market).
Amen. This point is not even really debatable. Actually, besides the 2004 season, has Duncan ever gone through another quality big? He won one series against Shaq and lost what, 3? Hakeem beat Kareem, Ewing, Robinson and Shaq. Yes, I know Duncan didn’t have the chance to really play against these studs, but how can you consider les and not include the teams and players faced in your analysis? Clearly Duncan has a losing record (when it matters) against the one quality big that he faced (isn’t he 0-2 against Malone as well, or 1-2). Hakeem usually came out on top against HOF bigs.
Um, Hakeem played the majority of his career with players like this, in a tougher era. So it’s ok to blame Duncan’s poor playoff games on teammates but Hakeem is worse for not leading these same kinda dudes to more les? Make up your mind now. This is exactly why you have to consider how much playing with scrubs impacts your team success. I guess Duncan only made the teammates better when his teammates were quality players?
Yes, that looks way tougher than facing Shaq (and holding him on the other end), Robinson/Rodman, Ewing/Mason/Oakley, Kareem, Barkley, Malone, etc…
However, the only two teammates to play with both clearly state Hakeem is better. So do you want to go by what teammates say or don’t you?
Again, no one is going to change their minds in this debate. Pro Hakeem folks will continue to argue with the numbers and the aspects on each players games (again, Dream was just as fundamentally sound, just with added athleticism). Duncan folks will continue to argue the team success, even though few care to discuss the differences in eras, rules, position compe ion, etc. I find it funny that folks discount Duncan’s help after he just won another le with a ho-hum Finals showing where another player got the MVP.
But let the record show that most neutral fan sites are pro Hakeem, and the only two dudes to play with both are also pro Hakeem. That alone seals the argument in my book, unless someone can tell me why our opinions matter more than two dudes who played 82 games and postseasons with both players. The only place Duncan seems to be winning this argument is on Spurs boards. That’s cool though…on the Rockets boards we still argue that Hakeem > MJ, lol…….
Really? According to "experts" on the topic, Hakeem is not even in the top 3 of best CENTERS of all-time. In fact, he gets 0 first place votes, and only ONE second place vote, by scoop jackson, so that should tell you something. Whereas Duncan is the best player of all-time at his position. Better luck next time.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...reatestCenters
Wait... wait. So Shaq guarded Duncan the majority of the time when they played? ROFL Hilarious! Shaq never guarded Duncan, he would have gotten torched. And Duncan doesn't have trouble guarding them at all, in fact, he does it when it matters most... in the 4th quarter. Duncan is a great 1 on 1 defender in the low post, of course he can't guard perimeter players, he is a big man.
Really? So his PERs aren't better than Hakeem's? I thought they were...Hakeems stat's during his best 10-12 years were better than anything Duncan has put up in any of his prime years. It's not objective or debatable. Look it up, Hakeem had more ppg, rpg, spg, fg%, ft%, bpg, just about every stat imaginable.
ROFL WITHOUT MUCH ATHLETICISM? Dude, don't you have some homework to do? Seriously, you are a rookie. Apparently you've never seen Horry block players like Allen Iverson on a fast break layup off the glass at 36 years old. Apparently you never saw Horry in Houston jump 3 feet in the air on his jump shot. Wait, of course you didn't, back in that day you were still playing with Legos. Seriously, give up.
I stand by what I said, Duncan is a much better team defender than a 1on1 defender. He doesn't have the quickness to matchup with guys like Dirk and Amare and that's why Horry or someone else gets the job.
Robert Horry was never a player known for his athleticism. He's known for being a smart basketball player who also happens to be very clutch. You saying he is so stupid is what makes me think you're the one still playing with legos. What I don't understand is how you could be so dead wrong about one of the players on your very own team. You must be a bandwagon fan or really stupid.
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