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Back on topic (somewhat) Shawn Marion definitely does shrink in the playoffs. This is pretty much indisputable for anybody that actually watched most of the games. Not saying that he's a choker (although he definitely is a mental midget), but because of the nature of the more slowed down game, and the fact that teams typically use a premier perimeter defender on him limit all of his cleanup opportunites. And the dude can't create jack for himself.
It's rather comical of comparing franchise player like Dirk Nowitzki and a great role player like Shawn Marion. IMHO, Nowitzki is not an NBA playoff legend in the making, but the Mavs are still a team built around him. Can you say the same about Marion ?
I'd argue that much of Marion's Casper has been against the Spurs. He's had some very good averages vs. the rest of the playoff teams, but against the Spurs he's just completely taken out of his element.
I'd venture to say that vs. every team not the Spurs, he's close to 20-10 averages. Vs. the Spurs, probably like 10-14 ppg, 6-8 rpg if not worse.
Probably just because Shawn shys away from the more physical game (which is more prevelant in the playoffs and which doesn't exist in LA or one of the first round teams).
All coached by Phil Jackson, interestingly enough.
Maybe D'Antoni should stop ing at him and pay more attention to him.
You know what? You're a ing idiot for continually insisting that Shawn Marion is a role player. What the do you even mean? What the do you consider to be a "role player"? The guy starts, scores a ton of points, gets a ton of rebounds, gets a ton of steals, gets a bunch of blocks, plays D on the opponents' best offensive player, routinely leads the league in minutes ... etc. Role player? Seriously? You gonna keep pushing that bull line of argument? Who the else in the league, besides Garnett, puts up numbers like Marion ... and you call him a role player. !!!! I don't even know what else to say to you. . He's got to be the greatest ing bag role player of all time or something.
Marion is a role player because you can't run the offense through him and he can't create his own shot. This opposed to a franchise player who you can successfully build around.
Well kudos to you for identifying an obvious fact that has escaped everyone else on this biased forum. Y'all go on and on and on and on and on about how great the Spurs D is ... which I dispute ... but then all of you (you excluded JMarkJohns) want to talk about how much the Suns suck against the Spurs. Which is it? Are the Spurs so freaking awesome that they alone can cope with the Suns, or are the Suns just so damned weak? Pick one, I say. But y'all can't have both.
Personally, I think the Suns are such a good team that I realistically expect them to blow out every team they play every night. And a ing of a lot of the time, they do exactly that. Can you say that for the Spurs? Even when you play a team you think the Spurs should beat? No. You can't. The Spurs do blow out a few opponents, but you sure as don't actually expect it every night. Different story with the Suns. I just don't get how all of you Spurs fans have distorted the reality of Spurs-Suns 07 to make into some kind of domination (you excluded JMarkJohn, I know you have admitted that the series was very close in past posts). The Suns are good. They are probably the only team in the NBA who could possibly beat the Spurs in a playoffs series. Just admit it, and the the truth shall set you free.
2006-2007 Regular Season
Point differential:
Spurs +8.4
Suns +7.3
Games won by 10 points or more:
Spurs 35
Suns 32
Not content with being the Stupidest Person on SpursTalk, DannyB starts prepping for the World le . . .
DannyB is yet again owned by his own team knowledgeable fan, HILARIOUS !!
Memo to DannyB, Marion's this generation GREAT role player, but good luck finding other team franchise player to trade for him, LOL. One for one, pound for pound.
That's great. But I wasn't talking about last year. I'm done even thinking about last year. I'm talking about this year, and the way they played last night (115-83 win). Suck it.
Hmm, we already sent the Spurs fishing. You mangle statistics (Marion's steals per game, Suns point differential) you don't seem aware of recent history, can you possibly be more full of ? C'mon admit it, the Suns are a diversion during the Diamondbacks offseason.
LMAO.....the Mavs sent the Spurs fishing two years ago...what kind of team do they have NOW? A team that can't even make it out of the first round.
How many times did the Spurs keep the Suns below 100 points during their series last year.
One. The game Amare and Diaw were suspended.
The Spurs can't stop the Suns. Im pretty confident Amare and Diaw won't get suspended again and the Suns will come out on top.
As for the Mavericks, some things to watch out for this season:
1) For how long will Avery Johnson continue to over-manage (a la Popovic) and bring Jason Terry off the bench. This kind of thinking is exactly why the Mavs have gotten their asses handed to them the past two seasons by inferior teams.
2) Will Avery insist on putting Dampier back into the rotation even though he's a bum and has a negative effect on the teams output (see Warriors series)? Again, this is Avery over-managing. Playing 10 guys simply so he can say he played ten guys.
3) If the Mavs' position is cemented in the final week of the year, will Avery pull his starters like he did last year?
Last edited by da_suns_fan__; 11-07-2007 at 03:41 PM.
I dunno, eighty percent of the same roster. We've made it out of the first round 6 out of 8 times in the Dirk era. I'm not sweating it.LMAO.....the Mavs sent the Spurs fishing two years ago...what kind of team do they have NOW?
How many times did the Spurs beat the Suns during their series last year? 4 times. Take away the "tainted" G5, and it's still 3-2 Spurs. You guys were down 20 points in the 4th Quarter of G6. STFU about how "The Spurs can't stop the Suns. I'm pretty confident Amare and Diaw won't get suspended again," because it doesn't ing matter. Boris Diaw chipped in what, 1 point and 1 rebound in G6? Amare can't play on one side of the court and you have no interior defenders now.How many times did the Spurs keep the Suns below 100 points during their series last year.
We're 3-1 and Terry is averaging 23 ppg on 60% shooting. It doesn't matter if he starts the game on the bench, he will be on the floor in the 4th Q. Worry about your own coach and his propensity for playing his 6 guys way too much in the regular season.1) For how long will Avery Johnson continue to over-manage (a la Popovic) and bring Jason Terry off the bench. This kind of thinking is exactly why the Mavs have gotten their asses handed to them the past two seasons to inferior teams.
Dampier barely played against the Warriors because of a torn rotator cuff. If you bothered to watch those games, you'd know that. Mono will argue with me on this, but say what you want about his salary, but he improves our interior defense and rebounding, two things your team is in short supply of during the postseason. We don't beat San Antonio without Dirk, but we don't beat them without Dampier and Diop either. Diop doesn't have the conditioning or stamina to consistently play starter's minutes.2) Will Avery insist on putting Dampier back into the rotation even though he's a bum and has a negative effect on the teams output (see Warriors series)? Again, this is Avery over-managing. Playing 10 guys simply so he can say he played ten guys.
Worry about your team (there's ample issues there), and I'll worry about mine.
How exactly did I "mangle" Marion's SPG stat? I said he was averaging 2.7 --which he is-- and that he pretty much always gets at least 2 SPG every year. His career average is 1.9. And I never quoted any point differential stat. I did say something about the Spurs and Suns having 2 of the best point differentials in the league (along with the Mavs). You're a dumbass Findog.
But youve (I assume you mean the Mavs) made it out the first round only two of three times without Nash. The West is even better this year. If the Mavs go up against the Warriors or Lakers (two teams with superior coaching), its gonna be another short post-season again for the Mavs.
Too bad it takes four games to win a series...and I like how you "Take away" the Spurs' tainted win yet don't award it to the Suns. If you take it away from the Spurs, then you obvioulsy need to give it to the Suns. Thats a 3-3 tie going into a game seven in Phoenix. Judging how poorly the SPurs played their last two games there, its pretty obvious the Suns would've taken it.
We've talked about D'Antoni endlessly in this thread already.....are you too proud to admit that your coach over-manages? How many years in a row will he cost them a series before you'll admit that its a problem?
Well Mono obviously isn't too proud to recognize a bum when he sees one on his team.
I hope the Mavs do play Dampier...especially against the Suns. Amare OWNS Dampier.
You big wuss.
Yeah, Steve Nash is the missing key to us winning a le. Which is why Phoenix is working on a four-peat.But youve (I assume you mean the Mavs) made it out the first round only two of three times without Nash.
We'd make short work of the Lakers. We'll find out tomorrow if our offseason pickups make a difference against Golden State.The West is even better this year. If the Mavs go up against the Warriors or Lakers (two teams with superior coaching), its gonna be another short post-season again for the Mavs.
No, it doesn't work that way. There's no guarantee that the Suns win G5 with Donuts and Duh'mare. San Antonio handled them three times with those guys available. From watching that game, it's obvious that the suspensions gave Phoenix an emotional lift and lit a fire, and the Spurs didn't match Phoenix in intensity for the first 20 minutes of the game. Starting with 4 minutes to play in the first half, San Antonio outscored Phoenix by 17 points over the last 28 minutes of the game. Does Phoenix play the first quarter and a half with the same bug up their ass with their full complement of players? There's no justification whatsoever to move that victory from one column to the other. If we agree that the game is "tainted" because the Suns are an immature bunch of whiners that couldn't follow a rule that every player on every team is aware of, the best we can do is simply pretend it didn't take place. It's still 3-2 Spurs, they still own you on your own floor, and you still got physically owned and were down by 20 points in an elimination game. The Mavs lost Terry to a suspension and still overcame it to beat San Antonio. I agree having those guys available increases Phoenix's chances of winning that game and possibly the series, but it's far from a lock. It's just meaningless supposition. All you guys had to do was win a game on the Spurs floor, which you'd already done, and win another game on your floor, which you had already done. You had your chance to win that series and you couldn't do it. Get over it already.Too bad it takes four games to win a series...and I like how you "Take away" the Spurs' tainted win yet don't award it to the Suns. If you take it away from the Spurs, then you obvioulsy need to give it to the Suns.
No, it isn't. Aren't the Suns something like 6-15 against San Antonio during Nash: Part Deux? Haven't they been repeatedly owned in their own building in the playoffs against San Antonio? Why is Game 2 a more valid result than Game One? You're making suppositions. The best we can say is that even throwing out G5, we're left with a 3-2 Spurs lead, and Phoenix coming up woefully short in an elimination game. That doesn't inspire confidence that they would've won the series if Amare and Diaw stayed on the bench.Thats a 3-3 tie going into a game seven in Phoenix. Judging how poorly the SPurs played their last two games there, its pretty obvious the Suns would've taken it.
Oh wait, so Dirk is off the hook now for our postseason failures? Please pick a lane. If you read through my posting history, I've directed plenty of blame at Avery for being outcoached by Riley and Nellie.We've talked about D'Antoni endlessly in this thread already.....are you too proud to admit that your coach over-manages? How many years in a row will he cost them a series before you'll admit that its a problem?
He wouldn't for matchup reasons. Diop would probably see more burn because he can run the floor better against an up-tempo team. Dampier is useful against San Antonio (Duncan), Houston (Ming), Utah (Boozer), Denver (Camby, Martin). Pity for the Suns that they don't place as high an emphasis on having interior defenders.I hope the Mavs do play Dampier...especially against the Suns. Amare OWNS Dampier.
You worthless lump of smegma.You big wuss
Nash possesses the very traits the Mavericks lack: Heart, determination, leadership, backbone etc.
Not too sure about that....What makes you think the Mavs could handle Kobe any better than they handled Dwayne Wade?
So in this "hypothetical" series, the Spurs had three games at home and the Suns had two and the Spurs win 3 games to two (each team having one victory on the other's home floor).
Why do you think we play the regular season? To determine who makes the playoffs and who has homecourt advantage. You want us to determine who is the better team of the two by looking at five games where the Spurs had home court. But the Suns earned the right to home court during the regular season. This was taken away from them with those suspensions.
Also, the Suns were down by twenty and valiantly fought back to pull close in the final minutes (I think they got as close at 3). I don't expect them to win EVERY game...especially when the Spurs basically played a perfect game.
And I don't see how the Spurs owned the Suns on their home court. They barely eeked out a win in game 5 (without Amare and Diaw) and they got their asses handed to them in game two. The Suns even might have won game 1 had Nash's nose not gotten busted open. Kudos to Nash for attempting to stay in and even draining a three to tie the game with a bloody face (this is the qualities that the Mavs lack that I was talking about earlier). Just too many bad breaks for the Suns.
See above.
They both deserve some of the blame. Avery for putting his team in a bad situation (Don Nelson and the Warriors new at the start of game one that they were in the Mavericks' heads). Dirk for not having the ability to overcome a very average eigth seed. Regardless of coach, there's no excuse for such a lackluster performance.
Didn't Diop play more minutes against the Spurs last year than Dampier did. Im pretty sure (we've had this argument before). If Avery's smart, he'll keep Dampiers ass on the bench where it belongs. He doesn't HAVE to play him. I wonder if he's receiving pressure from Cuban. No doubt the little Napoleon is still trying to save face for choosing Dampier over Steve Nash.
Kudos for originality I guess.
Along with an inability to play on both ends of the floor. And you can question their collective character all you want, and you would be profoundly wrong except in the case of poise, but the fact of the matter is that the Mavericks are a better team now than they were with Nash, and there are tradeoffs to going in a different direction. They could've sorely used Nash's ability to penetrate and create offense for others against the Warriors, since Terry is a classic tweener and Harris is not yet Nash's equal when it comes to distributing the ball. But Nash wouldn't have guarded Baron Davis any better than Terry or Harris, and a healthy Dampier would've been useful to protect the rim since our guards couldn't stop dribble penetration.Nash possesses the very traits the Mavericks lack: Heart, determination, leadership, backbone etc.
Shaquille O'Neal. He's not nearly the same player that he once was, but as of 2006 when we played them, he still commands a double team and is an extensive part of game-planning and preparation. We handled the Heat pretty easily before that trade and in the games we've played them sans Shaq.Not too sure about that....What makes you think the Mavs could handle Kobe any better than they handled Dwayne Wade?
It wasn't a hypothetical series, your team lost. We're not talking about a sophisticated computer simulation or NBA Live 08.So in this "hypothetical" series, the Spurs had three games at home and the Suns had two and the Spurs win 3 games to two (each team having one victory on the other's home floor).
The Spurs have demonstrated repeatedly they have no problem winning a game in Phoenix. Championship teams don't need HCA to advance. It's always nice to have, but if you're a le team, you don't need it. The Spurs won the le in 2003 by clinching three straight series on the road. The Mavericks clinched a Finals berth by doing the same thing in 2006. The Heat in turn won the le in Dallas, not Miami. The Suns could've demonstrated they were a le team by winning Game Six in San Antonio. They couldn't do it. End of Discussion.Why do you think we play the regular season? To determine who makes the playoffs and who has homecourt advantage. You want us to determine who is the better team of the two by looking at five games where the Spurs had home court.
They put themselves in that position by losing their cool and not demonstrating poise. If they can't stay on the bench when it's a widely-known rule that every player and every coach is aware of, and when 8 of their teammates kept their asses glued to their seats, what does that say about their ability to handle the pressure of a Game 7? Amare and Boris are immature. If I'm a Suns fan, I hope they've learned from that experience. Maybe they have. But as of May 2006, they demonstrated that they couldn't overcome the Spurs experience and mettle.
They lost. They dug themselves a hole they couldn't dig out of. If they were a le team, they wouldn't have put themselves in that position to begin with.Also, the Suns were down by twenty and valiantly fought back to pull close in the final minutes (I think they got as close at 3). I don't expect them to win EVERY game...especially when the Spurs basically played a perfect game.
.I don't see how the Spurs owned the Suns on their home court
4-7 at home against the Spurs in the Nash Part Deux Era. 1-2 in the 07 semis.
.Kudos to Nash for attempting to stay in and even draining a three to tie the game with a bloody face (this is the qualities that the Mavs lack that I was talking about earlier)
You haven't watched too many Mavericks games. Just for contrast, when Jason Terry was suspended and the Mavericks were put in the position of having to win a game in San Antonio to avoid elimination, they didn't and whine. They kept their mouths shut, played their hearts out, overcame a backbreaking Manu three and ran past the Spurs in overtime. And if they had lost that game, they wouldn't put the blame on anybody but themselves or Terry in particular for letting San Antonio back into that series.
Just too many self-inflicted wounds for the Suns, along with a hefty dose of Tim Duncan.Just too many bad breaks for the Suns.
Dallas would not have beaten Phoenix or San Antonio had they advanced last year, so it's all a moot point. They weren't playing their best ball of the season and peaked way too early. There is a school of thought among many that Dallas should've tanked in the last week of the season against the Clippers to draw them for the playoffs instead of a very good Warrior team that had a talent infusion with a mid-season trade. They would've beaten the Clippers but a lack of perimeter defense and Dampier's injury would've doomed them just the same against SAS/PHX as it did Golden State. We weren't winning a le last year, and I think in the long run, the Golden State series exposed some previously hidden flaws that wouldn't have been illuminated otherwise. A loss to San Antonio would've just been blamed on having only one quality interior defender (Diop) instead of two (Dampier). I like the Trenton Hassell pickup, we needed a big, physical defender since both Harris and Terry gave up a lot of size and length to Davis and Richardson.They both deserve some of the blame. Avery for putting his team in a bad situation (Don Nelson and the Warriors new at the start of game one that they were in the Mavericks' heads).
Yes, we did have this argument before, and you lost it:Didn't Diop play more minutes against the Spurs last year than Dampier did. Im pretty sure (we've had this argument before).
http://www.nba.com/playoffs2006/series_sasdal.html
Dampier played way more minutes than Diop.
It was a tradeoff. It goes to show you how overrated Nash is that we lost him, replaced him with an interior defender that isn't exactly a 20-10 guy and got better, and went much further than we ever did with him. If I'm playing the Spurs in May, I'd rather have Erick Dampier and Jason Terry than Steve Nash and Shawn Bradley. We used Nash's salary slot to sign Dampier. It's not like we could have both.If Avery's smart, he'll keep Dampiers ass on the bench where it belongs. He doesn't HAVE to play him. I wonder if he's receiving pressure from Cuban. No doubt the little Napoleon is still trying to save face for choosing Dampier over Steve Nash.
Grant Hill is about to play 40 minutes tonight. does Dumbtoni not realize this is the same Grant Hill with ankles more fragile than Dirk. He wont be around for the playoffs if he keeps this up
Aha..yes, now I remember....I actually won that argument. Diop played more minutes LAST YEAR against the Spurs than Dampier (not two years ago...you always want to pretend last year was 2006...I would too after the egg the Mavs laid). Cant deny that FACT, can you?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/player...r=2007&sType=2
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/player...r=2007&sType=2
Obviously, Avery realized how worthless he is.
You don't have to defend every guy on your team, FinDog. Its okay to admit when the Mavs ed up.
Last night? Who's talking about last night?I'm talking about this year, and the way they played last night. Suck it.
96-105.
Sometimes you must even amaze yourself.
Oh yeah, a random regular season game is more important and relevant than a playoff series for determining how Avery is gonna distribute minutes for the bigs against the Spurs. No context for foul trouble, nagging injuries, or if the team has played the 2nd night of a back to back and he wants to limit minutes.
Just for the record, here is the 2006-07 regular season distribution of minutes:
Game 1 @ Dallas: Diop 26, Dampier 22
Game 2 @ SA: Dampier 25, Diop 22
Game 3 @ SA: Diop 22, Dampier 12 ( started but was in foul trouble with 5 PF)
Game 4 @ Dal: Diop 34, Dampier DNP due to injury
Your argument is flawed and stupid, but what else is new? You have to actually watch the games and know what's going on. All things being equal, Dampier gets more minutes against San Antonio than Diop, especially in the playoffs. You're not an authority on the Suns, much less the Mavericks, so stop pretending that you are.
I know you're a Suns fan and you can't grasp the distinction between playoffs and regular season, but in the playoffs, you have to beat the same team four times in a best of seven series, so you develop a game plan and a strategy based on matchups. I'm sorry if you feel like this is patronizing you, but it really needs to be stated for your benefit. God, everytime I think you've hit rock bottom for self-ownage, the floor opens up even further.
You can't even win on a peripheral point, I see you failed to even try to refute the main arguments. Good job da_smegma_fan
Last edited by Findog; 11-07-2007 at 11:00 PM.
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