The Parisian Patisserie of Victor Wembanyama

[The Truth #6]

Clearly he wants to be a one-on-one player, but has problems dribbling against small forwards understandably, and doesn't have enough strength to abuse typical post-players down low. So he's going to need to rely on a team game with movement I imagine. Oddly, he played best along Sidy and Mamu who do just that.

[spurraider21]

Absolutely. Five-ten-fifteen years ago Pop was an amazing coach as you could see from the growth by Kawhi and Danny Green, then Dejounte and Derrick White. Now just wish he had retired last April so the Spurs could have brought Bud in to the job he was being groomed for before Phoenix offered him their HC job.

wasnt just those guys either. there'd be games where pop would rest everybody from the big 3, and they'd still go out there and sometimes beat some of the best teams in the league because the entire roster functioned as a well-oiled machine. this one particularly comes to mind



https://www.basketball-reference.com...312190GSW.html

and not necessarily full games either. countless times the starters would come out flat and pop would do his hockey shift subs and bring in 5 reserves and they'd bring us back

[spursparker9]

Wemby is definitely sicked. Not sure if he would play in the next game against Chet and OKC

[spurraider21]

yeah that seems to be the story

[skin27]

It's frustrating to watch the careless turnovers and the bad shot selection, especially those bombs early in the clock. Almost all of those errors are unforced. It doesn't make sense to me that a guy who seems to have a high basketball IQ and sees the floor and passes as well as he can, can also be so braindead. I mean, this isn't exactly Pop taking the reins off of Manu. This is just Vic doing stupid .

It's frustrating to watch Vic get put in a straightjacket by a guy who is a foot shorter than him. And let's face it, they aren't doing him any favors with the actions they are running. Hey Vic, here's the ball 30 feet from the basket, go do something. Mix in a cross screen or a back pick maybe to free him up?

I thought that Chris Paul would clean some of this stuff up, but I'm not seeing much evidence of that. Granted... it's early in the season / he's sick /out of shape/ small sample size/ whatever, but if Wemby doesn't start taking better care of the ball this team isn't going to sniff the post season.

Wemby has a low basketball IQ. He is talented but low BBIQ

[Chinook]

It seems you want Victor be like any other center or like something we know (KD, Jokic, Dirk...), newsflash he is not... if he does not try and settle for the easiest when he will figure out what he can really be ? Prospect here is not being a top 5 center in history, prospect or ambition is to have a shot at being the best ever. Maybe he can do that emulating other players or find his own way, creates his own hookshot. Then on your it would be interesting if this creates favorable situations I don't get it, last night he had 5 assists.

Dude had a 14 20 5 4 night while being sick, give the kid a break and enjoy the process

This is caustic thinking. Wemby's not Lamar Jackson where he's an unconventional talent folks try to shoehorn into playing a certain way instead of letting him marry his talents to the position. He's a runningback who jumps into front of the QB to take the snap and then throws an interception.

The problem is not his numbers. It's how he plays on the court. That's not the result of him being sick. It's not really the result of him being unique. It's a result of the mentality he seems to bring to the court. He's not playing all that differently than he has since he was in France. That didn't change. What changed is the excuses for it are starting to look thin. Yes, he can play better, but A) It's concerning that he's only regressed in that area since last season and B) It's weird that we ever had to ask this. What does Wemby do well on offense? By that I don't mean what does he show a lot of potential for. I mean what is he able to do reliably on that end? I can't name a single thing. For a guy who wants the ball so much, that's concerning.

EDIT to expand on the runningback metaphor. It's not about him being lesser of a star than a QB. It's understanding that his role depends on others to do their jobs and for him to do his. Wemby shouldn't measure himself against perimeter stars. I don't care if that's how he sees himself. It's not where he is right now. He can be a center who does more, but he has to be an actual center to do that, and that doesn't seem to be his main focus. He seems to have gone into the off-season training as if he were a wing. That's wrong-headed in a similar way as Sochan playing PG last year. If Pop is behind it, it's more reason to let him go. If Wemby is behind it, someone needs to get through to him.

[Chinook]

And no, Wemby is a GOAT level talent. We all know this. But he's less than the sum of his parts now. He will undoubtedly have great games and bring his impact stats up to be elite. The talent is that superlative. But his maturation isn't guaranteed. Wanting to be great and focusing on winning a le isn't what gets you there. That's fluff. It's being willing to work on yourself and take a hard look at your areas of improvement. Focusing on building upper body muscle feels like one of the least important things to do coming off last season. It's a guard/driving thing that doesn't align with the actual areas of weakness.

[Pauleta14]

criticism are a bit harsh for the first 3 games of the season. Victor and Spurs are rightfully so aiming at developing a 3 pts shooting, he won't do that if he does not shoot. When you are 7'4 all you shoot seems open tbh.. he will learn. KD and Lebron started shooting below 30% in their first year, the 5 first games of Lebron year 2 he shot 23% from 3. The aim should be a 4 to 5 3 pts per game at around 35%. In his first 3 games he had 6 apg which is too much but also linked to the lack of the team 3 pts option, the return of Vassell will solve that issue. Vassell with CP3 and Victor passing should thrive in that regard.

For the rest, against Houston Victor was clearly under the weather. I saw his post game, he was coughing and sneezing.

Relax with the "horrible to see", the "he wants highlights reels" and all dat , I know it's spurstalk but come on

I'm fine with the 3s, he needs them to have long career and to be able to make defenses doubt.

I'm more concerned by him wandering too often not knowing what to do or not seing any plays they'd have been working on. It still looks free flowing

[Brazil]

The problem is not his numbers. It's how he plays on the court. That's not the result of him being sick. It's not really the result of him being unique. It's a result of the mentality he seems to bring to the court. He's not playing all that differently than he has since he was in France. That didn't change. What changed is the excuses for it are starting to look thin. Yes, he can play better, but A) It's concerning that he's only regressed in that area since last season and B) It's weird that we ever had to ask this. What does Wemby do well on offense? By that I don't mean what does he show a lot of potential for. I mean what is he able to do reliably on that end? I can't name a single thing. For a guy who wants the ball so much, that's concerning.

If you don't think he is not playing that different compared to when he was playing in France, you did not pay a lot of attention. He played already quite differently between first and second half of the year for the Spurs in particular his passing and playmaking, it was night and day and it is true on both end of the floor.

Victor went in less than 2 years from playing a new team in France (Asvel to Mets) to playing with Sochan as a PG to playing with Tre to playing in the Olympics to playing with CP3 and Barnes while being 20 y/o and a freak of nature. Also teams are now aware of his strenghts and weaknesses and defend much better on him. You talk about his offensive game and not being able to detect what he does well, like really ? His passing skills are already very good, his court vision is good, he is capable of creating his own shot, his handles are pretty awesome for a guy of his size... we about his 3 pts, he shot quite good in his first year for a non guard. Is there any room for progress ? of course, he cannot post up for , his shot selection could be better, he takes some bad decision, forces passes and is TO prone... I know it sounds crazy but he is not a finished product... shocking

We have already had a debate in this forum about the method Victor is using, he is working on everything at the same time on defense and offense which is quite different from the method of adding stuff little by little while focusing almost exclusively on what a player is good at the beginning. There is good and bad for both. Jokic developped a 3 pts shooting in year 3 which is also the case for instance for KD who was not shooting a lot of 3s in his first two years but for all the KD and Jokic you have your 3&D guys who never developped ball handling, the Tony who never developped a 3 pts shooting etc... You know who else worked on everything since day 1 ? Lebron. Lebron who in year 1 had terrible 3 pts shooting (worst than Victor), was turning the ball over etc...

This is the way he chose to develop his game, it can be frustrating to watch but it what it is, his usage will continue off the chart, he will make some boneheads play, try difficult passes and shoot from the logo.. a balance will be found eventually in year 2 maybe in year 3

At the end, it is three games with almost no pre season games and one of which sick.

you can call that excuses if you want, I call that looking at the big picture
He is doing all of that while being today arguably a top 5 defender in the league...

[spurraider21]

i disagree that he cant post up. no, he's not going to do the traditional post game where he sticks his ass out and backs his defender out of bounds like shaq would do. but we've seen plenty of finesse post players as well.

ive said it before, but KP was the most efficient post-up player in the league last year, and its not because of his overwhelming power and dominant low post footwork (yes, he is stronger than Vic is, and is a better shooter). most of what he did was take advantage of size mismatches and get himself in position to just rise up for easy middies. you dont need to jack up a contested 21 footer, you can just work a little bit off the dribble to get into that 14-15 foot range and pull up from there. the below is just one game where he did this quite a few times when the mavs threw wings like josh green and derrick jones jr at him. this is how wemby could be taking advantage of Brooks.



to be fair, the team could also run actions to get wemby the ball in the midpost, where he can use his length and long strides to just work around brooks and get clean looks. this happened late in the game when vic caught the ball on the left side, took one dribble, and then rose up for a free throw line jumper that he buried. getting him better starting position than just having him catch the ball at the top of the key would help. but its also in bent on him to take advantage of the height disparity

[Brazil]

i disagree that he cant post up. no, he's not going to do the traditional post game where he sticks his ass out and backs his defender out of bounds like shaq would do. but we've seen plenty of finesse post players as well.

ive said it before, but KP was the most efficient post-up player in the league last year, and its not because of his overwhelming power and dominant low post footwork (yes, he is stronger than Vic is, and is a better shooter). most of what he did was take advantage of size mismatches and get himself in position to just rise up for easy middies. you dont need to jack up a contested 21 footer, you can just work a little bit off the dribble to get into that 14-15 foot range and pull up from there. the below is just one game where he did this quite a few times when the mavs threw wings like josh green and derrick jones jr at him. this is how wemby could be taking advantage of Brooks.



to be fair, the team could also run actions to get wemby the ball in the midpost, where he can use his length and long strides to just work around brooks and get clean looks. this happened late in the game when vic caught the ball on the left side, took one dribble, and then rose up for a free throw line jumper that he buried. getting him better starting position than just having him catch the ball at the top of the key would help. but its also in bent on him to take advantage of the height disparity

I agree fully and was talking about backing down defender near the rim especifically or bullying a smaller defender. Porzingis is also smarter protecting the ball, he doesn't try fancy handling just good awareness to let ball not being at reach.

I like the Porzingis parallel tbh... at 20 y/o despite his size his shot selection was not particulary good and efficiency was also lackluster... but as he had less tool than Victor it became easier for him to focus on his fundations, by year 2 he was pretty much a finished product who cleaned up his game getting more efficient with the experience. Victor feels he can be elite at everything (curry range, kyrie handles, tim defense, david explosion....) who are we to tell him otherwise ? he'll have to figure out his limitations and deal with it.

[ambchang]

It seems you want Victor be like any other center or like something we know (KD, Jokic, Dirk...), newsflash he is not... if he does not try and settle for the easiest when he will figure out what he can really be ? Prospect here is not being a top 5 center in history, prospect or ambition is to have a shot at being the best ever. Maybe he can do that emulating other players or find his own way, creates his own hookshot. Then on your it would be interesting if this creates favorable situations I don't get it, last night he had 5 assists.

Dude had a 14 20 5 4 night while being sick, give the kid a break and enjoy the process

Not getting the logic. If he wants to do that, do it in practice, not in a game.

You know what the best ever do? They do things that are the easiest for them and dominate at those things. Hakeem doesn’t do threes, Shaq doesnt do shake and bake from 20 feet, Duncan doesn't do fadeway off balanced shots from 20 feet. The best ever does a few things incredibly well that the defence cannot do anything about it.

People know Kareem will throw a hook from the right post, they know duncan will do a bank shot from 18 on the left corner, they know Hakeem will do his dream shake in the low post, they know Shaq will back them in the paint and score within 3 feet, but they can’t do anything about it.

Wemby can do that, once he reigns back his shot selection and take good shots, he will dominate. There already things you can’t do anything to stop him, wemby at the high post will be lethal. I still want him to model his game after Garnett, but expanded. He will be absolutely unstoppable. Who will block an 18 footer from wemby? Who can stop his drives with those long strides? He makes life difficult for himself and easier for defence, once he figures those parts our (or pop drills it in his head), then the cheat code is unlocked.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't need Wemby to be Shaq or Hakeem or play like them. Really the only gripe I have are the 35+ ft pull up 3s with lots of time on the shot clock. I just don't see how that's ever a good shot. Literally the only thing I am annoyed with from Wemby.

[tbdog]

Wemby iso near the end was also bad. Get him the ball at the top of the key rather than iso a legit swing forward from the 3pt line.

[Limguogolo]

It seems you want Victor be like any other center or like something we know (KD, Jokic, Dirk...), newsflash he is not... if he does not try and settle for the easiest when he will figure out what he can really be ? Prospect here is not being a top 5 center in history, prospect or ambition is to have a shot at being the best ever. Maybe he can do that emulating other players or find his own way, creates his own hookshot. Then on your it would be interesting if this creates favorable situations I don't get it, last night he had 5 assists.

Dude had a 14 20 5 4 night while being sick, give the kid a break and enjoy the process

Newsflash: in no world does a player as good as he is have fun shooting from the logo when he has plenty of time to advance to the basket.

Victor will never learn to be that player because that player has no reason to exist except in the Chinese ldeague.

These are the kind of shots you take when you're pushed back by the defense late in a possession. It’s always an admission of failure. Here, Victor isn't even pushed by the defense, he does it because it's a major admission of helplessness. It's fun, a crazy horse with no spurs.

Playing well also means playing with your head. And there are times for everything, even for a big guy who can dribble and needs to experiment. You experience useful situations, you don't experience stupid actions. Intelligence is knowing how to make things simple, not complicated. Because newsflash: people who make life difficult never win anything.

[Brazil]

Not getting the logic. If he wants to do that, do it in practice, not in a game.

You know what the best ever do? They do things that are the easiest for them and dominate at those things. Hakeem doesn’t do threes, Shaq doesnt do shake and bake from 20 feet, Duncan doesn't do fadeway off balanced shots from 20 feet. The best ever does a few things incredibly well that the defence cannot do anything about it.

People know Kareem will throw a hook from the right post, they know duncan will do a bank shot from 18 on the left corner, they know Hakeem will do his dream shake in the low post, they know Shaq will back them in the paint and score within 3 feet, but they can’t do anything about it.

Wemby can do that, once he reigns back his shot selection and take good shots, he will dominate. There already things you can’t do anything to stop him, wemby at the high post will be lethal. I still want him to model his game after Garnett, but expanded. He will be absolutely unstoppable. Who will block an 18 footer from wemby? Who can stop his drives with those long strides? He makes life difficult for himself and easier for defence, once he figures those parts our (or pop drills it in his head), then the cheat code is unlocked.

In practice ? in practice there are dudes who look like the reincarnation of MJ, nothing replaces the compe ion.

Curry did not do the easiest, he started shooting 3s from the logo in transition instead of settling for corner 3s the easiest of the 3, the hookshot was certainly not the easiest shot (proof is nobody is using it anymore), Magic sent blind passes instead of regular passes... Lebron decided he can also play all position including PG and add a 3 pts shot certainly not the easiest for him. Victor is figuring it out, one thing is for sure he does not want to be a traditional dominant big doing the easiest ala Shaq, he wants it all.. time will tell if he will be successful or not. I believe in the near future he will be smart enough to know what he can and cannot do, for now he believes he can do it all working hard.

I also cringe looking at his long 3s out of rythm with plenty of time on the shot clock but I do understand where he is coming from. I just trust the process, he is a smart kid

[Brazil]

Because newsflash: people who make life difficult never win anything.

not sure what's your point here, make life difficult for yourself, pushing the boundaries is actually the receipt of winning in sport, business everything. Mistakes are integral part of the process, you totally learn from stupid actions. I'm sure you did a lot of stupid stuff in your life and you learned from it.

[ambchang]

In practice ? in practice there are dudes who look like the reincarnation of MJ, nothing replaces the compe ion.

Curry did not do the easiest, he started shooting 3s from the logo in transition instead of settling for corner 3s the easiest of the 3, the hookshot was certainly not the easiest shot (proof is nobody is using it anymore), Magic sent blind passes instead of regular passes... Lebron decided he can also play all position including PG and add a 3 pts shot certainly not the easiest for him. Victor is figuring it out, one thing is for sure he does not want to be a traditional dominant big doing the easiest ala Shaq, he wants it all.. time will tell if he will be successful or not. I believe in the near future he will be smart enough to know what he can and cannot do, for now he believes he can do it all working hard.

I also cringe looking at his long 3s out of rythm with plenty of time on the shot clock but I do understand where he is coming from. I just trust the process, he is a smart kid

I think we just agree to disagree. As you noted those greats do one great thing nobody else is doing, not everything. Wemby is doing everything now and he isn’t good at any of them. Focus on one or two things you want to be great at at a time, lebron worked on his threes, magic his no looks, steph his step back threes, Kareem his skyhook, hakeem his shakes, duncan his banks, Dirk his one foot fades, jordan his turnaround fades, but they did these in practice first until it’s a proficient and consistent move before busting them out in games. Wemby is just doing whatever comes to his mind at the moment (at least it looks like that to me). He shouldn’t be pushed to do hard things, he should impose his will on the defence.

[Spurs Homer]

I look at wemby shooting 3's this way:

Hmmm wemby taking a shot from anywhere on the court -

versus

branham, zollins,wesley, et al

shooting bricks?

Wemby can take every shot as far as im concerned.

[ambchang]

I look at wemby shooting 3's this way:

Hmmm wemby taking a shot from anywhere on the court -

versus

branham, zollins,wesley, et al

shooting bricks?

Wemby can take every shot as far as im concerned.

I’d rather the entire team brick shots than one person brick shots and the rest of the guys just stand around. It does impact the defence when players don’t get the ball, and the offence becomes to stationary that the opposition won’t even have to try. They’d at least have to run around when the ball is being passed around.

[RC_Drunkford]

He needs to work on his midrange game and a hook shot. If that is established he can then simply pump fake and if the defender bites, it‘s a dunk. If he got a hook shot (and I‘m not talking about the sky-hook) nobody can get that and the counter move is the step through which he used in Game 2 against the Rockets. This is how he will be able to get a bunch of easy buckets inside

[rankingtear]

Clearly he wants to be a one-on-one player, but has problems dribbling against small forwards understandably, and doesn't have enough strength to abuse typical post-players down low. So he's going to need to rely on a team game with movement I imagine. Oddly, he played best along Sidy and Mamu who do just that.

Pretty much sums it up. The closest thing to that is UTA with Markannen, it is not a coincidence he is the only player they legitimately went after.

[tim_duncan_fan]

I look at wemby shooting 3's this way:

Hmmm wemby taking a shot from anywhere on the court -

versus

branham, zollins,wesley, et al

shooting bricks?

Wemby can take every shot as far as im concerned.

Yeah, this would be destructive in the longterm and most nights not productive in the short.

Right now, Victor needs to not have a green light. He very clearly needs a set of actions, a set of moves and reads he is supposed to progress through to try to get as-low-effort-as-possible buckets.

Even when he has a night where he is just jacking shots up and they are going in, it's still counterproductive if he is not getting those shots in a constructive way.


These losses are actually badly needed because they are, at least in significant part, due to Vic just doing what he wants to do instead of doing things well. Maybe the coaching staff is allowing him to see that he needs coaching. Sometimes with teenagers, you have to let a hard head create a soft ass.

[Brazil]

I think we just agree to disagree. As you noted those greats do one great thing nobody else is doing, not everything. Wemby is doing everything now and he isn’t good at any of them. Focus on one or two things you want to be great at at a time, lebron worked on his threes, magic his no looks, steph his step back threes, Kareem his skyhook, hakeem his shakes, duncan his banks, Dirk his one foot fades, jordan his turnaround fades, but they did these in practice first until it’s a proficient and consistent move before busting them out in games. Wemby is just doing whatever comes to his mind at the moment (at least it looks like that to me). He shouldn’t be pushed to do hard things, he should impose his will on the defence.

we agree to disagree indeed but we are not far off tbh... It seems Victor with FO blessing made a choice to work on everything at the same time rather than adding piece by piece on more robust go to stuff he is good at, both have their pros and cons, the Kaizen approach is less nerve wrecking for fans but I trust he knows what it is best for him and for the Spurs on the long term.

[Pauleta14]

His shot is fine, it's technically perfect even

The issue always comes from how well he can set his feet and shoot in a flow.

That's why he's so good at step backs shots compared to catch and shoot who takes away the ryhthm/"flow"

If you add his weak core/legs, it adds even more difficulties when he's guarded closely like vs Rockettes.

Good for him most teams don't have this strategy nor a Brooks