If you don't vaccinate your children, you are a horrible parent. Period

[rmt]

You repeat yourself and myself.

Nobody is going to test each individual component of a vaccine. It would be difficult to get them separately and even if tested separately, one never knows if the combination of components is what caused a reaction. He took the first dose of the DTap fine. Years later, it caused a reaction. Now, it could have been a slightly different one, maybe by a different drug company - who knows? It could be that he did have a lesser reaction or a reaction that affected him in other ways (he didn't speak until he was 4 years old) - each successive exposure seems to intensify the reaction. The point is that having had a reaction before, it's not worth the risk of another (maybe more severe one) compared to having chickenpox or measles.

[RandomGuy]

So two specialists said it was possible that your child could be vaccinated, with a modest modification of the regimen.

Despite what conservatives and libertarians seem to think, ethical choices do not happen in a vacuum. Your choices affect others.

Your choice to have an unvaccinated child running around means a couple of things ethically:

Your child is at risk of dying from something.
Your child is at risk of spreading something to someone else, who could end up dying.

You have made the choice with being comfortable with balancing the risk between allergic reaction and vaccinating.

Are you comfortable with possibly causing someone else's death?

RG, I think that you should reserve judgement until you have a child who has had a vaccine and goes into an anaphylactic reaction right in front of you - gasping for breath, breaking out in hives all over, curled up in a ball while the pediatrician frantically searches for needle and epinephrine. I hope you realize that your child could sit beside another child (from a foreign country) with any number of diseases in say DisneyWorld and be exposed to said disease compared to my child in a classroom in which all the other kids are supposed to be vaccinated. I say supposed to be vaccinated because guess what I learned at work last week - they let homeless and migrant kids (e.g. from Haiti when they had that earthquake) in without being vaccinated (and they can continue to be unvaccinated their entire tenure [there's no checking]) - of course, better they're in school than on the streets - regardless of what disease they could possibly pass on to the other students. So who knows who your kid is sitting next to.

My main concern is for my child - and his possibility of dying from anaphylaxis is greater than from chickenpox or measles.

You didn't answer my question.

You did say that your primary concern was that of your child, so the lack of an answer to me means you don't want to come out and admit it.

Yes, you are comfortable with possibly causing the death of another human being, to save your child from what amounts to some discomfort, if the experts who say that is it possible to vaccinate your child safely are to be believed.

My actual view:

I understand, really I do. It is a hard call to make, and I have certainly had some scares with a kid with life-threatening allergies.

I just think it would be better, were you to be honest about the ethical implications of your decision.

Make the call you want to, just don't delude yourself about reality, however uncomfortable.

[rmt]

You didn't answer my question.

You did say that your primary concern was that of your child, so the lack of an answer to me means you don't want to come out and admit it.

Yes, you are comfortable with possibly causing the death of another human being, to save your child from what amounts to some discomfort, if the experts who say that is it possible to vaccinate your child safely are to be believed.

My actual view:

I understand, really I do. It is a hard call to make, and I have certainly had some scares with a kid with life-threatening allergies.

I just think it would be better, were you to be honest about the ethical implications of your decision.

Make the call you want to, just don't delude yourself about reality, however uncomfortable.

Am I supposed to risk my child's life on your assumption that all it's gonna cause my child is SOME DISCOMFORT? The reason the other two want to slowly put it in over hours is to be able to stop immediately if there is a reaction - hoping that because they are putting it in a little at a time, what they last put in was not enough to kill him.

I notice you say nothing about the homeless and migrant children who probably would have no reaction to vaccines sitting in classrooms unvaccinated and possibly as you think causing the death of another human being. Or ANYONE from a foreign country who has not been vaccinated sitting next to you at DisneyWorld or some movie theatre, or train? Where's the outrage there? But I'm to risk my child's life (who has had a do ented reaction to a vaccine) to appease people like you. RG, if I was into swearing, I'd be doing it now - I don't think I've ever been this upset on this board. This reminds me of the pontification you liberals were doing to us deplorables last year.

[Pavlov]

rmt's actions look to be in the CDC guidelines, so I can't really fault that. I'm not sure that should swear the kid of every vaccination forever though. That's why I wondered if there were ways of finding out what components were causing the reaction.

[pgardn]

rmt should be glad that other people can vaccinate their children safely.

The heard immunity is a blessing for her.
Has this been stated anywhere in this long thread?

[DMC]

So two specialists said it was possible that your child could be vaccinated, with a modest modification of the regimen.

Despite what conservatives and libertarians seem to think, ethical choices do not happen in a vacuum. Your choices affect others.

Your choice to have an unvaccinated child running around means a couple of things ethically:

Your child is at risk of dying from something.
Your child is at risk of spreading something to someone else, who could end up dying.

You have made the choice with being comfortable with balancing the risk between allergic reaction and vaccinating.

Are you comfortable with possibly causing someone else's death?

Let me get this straight: there are no ethical choices made in space.

Close?

[SnakeBoy]

rmt should be glad that other people can vaccinate their children safely.

The heard immunity is a blessing for her.
Has this been stated anywhere in this long thread?

You should explain the concept to RandomGuy. He seems to think one child with a medical exemption is a threat to all of society.

[RandomGuy]

You should explain the concept to RandomGuy. He seems to think one child with a medical exemption is a threat to all of society.

Nope. Yet another in a long line of dishonest strawmen arguments.

Someday you might actually get around to being honest when talking about politics or addressing liberals, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Do you think being dishonest about what others think means your own beliefs are more valid? Weird.

[Spurtacular]

Stronly considered that as well. I might be able to convince my brother to go along with it, without drippy wife knowing.

Stay out of people's family affairs, got.

[RandomGuy]

Stay out of people's family affairs, got.

You do realize I am talking about my nephews, right?

[Spurtacular]

You do realize I am talking about my nephews, right?

I do. It's still goty to backseat parent kids that aren't yours. Have your own kids if you want to be a parent.

[Winehole23]

The World Health Organization says the number of measles cases in Europe jumped sharply during the first six months of 2018 and at least 37 people have died.

The U.N. agency’s European office said Monday more than 41,000 measles cases were reported in the region during the first half of the year — more than in all 12-month periods so far this decade.


The previous highest annual total was 23,927 cases in 2017. A year earlier, only 5,273 cases were reported.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4397490/measles-europe/

[RandomGuy]

[/FONT][/COLOR]https://globalnews.ca/news/4397490/measles-europe/[/FONT][/COLOR]

It will start taking out those with no vaccinations and vulnerabilities. I guess we as a species will be better off overall by removing both gullible people and their children who happen to also be people for whom the disease is more deadly. Sad, but that is the reality.

[rmt]

It will start taking out those with no vaccinations and vulnerabilities. I guess we as a species will be better off overall by removing both gullible people and their children who happen to also be people for whom the disease is more deadly. Sad, but that is the reality.

I will refrain from commenting on your comments on vaccinations. I will instead vent about the $2 convenience fee on $15 science fee - talk about ripoff - the school is probably getting a cut of this - just sent off an earful to the Principal and Assistant Principal.

[Spurtacular]

The thread that RandomGuy was considering ing over someone else's kids.

[RandomGuy]

I will refrain from commenting on your comments on vaccinations. I will instead vent about the $2 convenience fee on $15 science fee - talk about ripoff - the school is probably getting a cut of this - just sent off an earful to the Principal and Assistant Principal.

The school has to pay for supplies and so forth, as well as have a nurse on staff. They aren't out to make big bucks here.

Your concern is ill-founded and almost certainly an overreaction.

[RandomGuy]

I do. It's still goty to backseat parent kids that aren't yours. Have your own kids if you want to be a parent.

At some point, if someone is harming their kids, then you take those kids away.

Just like the morons who think prayer will make infections go away, and have two of their kids die.

[rmt]

The school has to pay for supplies and so forth, as well as have a nurse on staff. They aren't out to make big bucks here.

Your concern is ill-founded and almost certainly an overreaction.

AP calls me today and says of course, I can pay by cash or check (even though ds said they told kids to pay online). She also said other parents complained.

I have no objection to a $15 science fee, but I am NOT paying a $2 convenience fee to do it online.

[Spurtacular]

At some point, if someone is harming their kids, then you take those kids away.

Just like the morons who think prayer will make infections go away, and have two of their kids die.

Have your own kids if you want to be a parent.

[RandomGuy]

RG, I think that you should reserve judgement until you have a child who has had a vaccine and goes into an anaphylactic reaction right in front of you - gasping for breath, breaking out in hives all over, curled up in a ball while the pediatrician frantically searches for needle and epinephrine. I hope you realize that your child could sit beside another child (from a foreign country) with any number of diseases in say DisneyWorld and be exposed to said disease compared to my child in a classroom in which all the other kids are supposed to be vaccinated. I say supposed to be vaccinated because guess what I learned at work last week - they let homeless and migrant kids (e.g. from Haiti when they had that earthquake) in without being vaccinated (and they can continue to be unvaccinated their entire tenure [there's no checking]) - of course, better they're in school than on the streets - regardless of what disease they could possibly pass on to the other students. So who knows who your kid is sitting next to.

My main concern is for my child - and his possibility of dying from anaphylaxis is greater than from chickenpox or measles.

No, it isn't, and provably so.

Best anti-vaxxers can get is deaths on the on per millions from vaccine reactions at the MOST charitable reading for their case from available data. Measles kills on the order of one per thousands, three orders of magnitudes worse.

[RandomGuy]

[/FONT][/COLOR]https://globalnews.ca/news/4397490/measles-europe/[/FONT][/COLOR]

... and the recent outbreaks.

Facebook has started cracking down on anti-vax woo groups.

I joined one just to see what it was like, and it was pretty much what one would expect.

I have a friend, who I try to patiently walk through the bull with, but she just can't or won't see the forest for the trees.

I can say that there is some concerning science about aluminum conjunctivants, but what is there is vastly overblown by vaccine opponents.

[boutons_deux]

Arizona House Panel Votes to Expand Vaccine Exemptions Amid Ongoing Measles Outbreak


https://gizmodo.com/arizona-house-pa...+%28Gizmodo%29

[Pavlov]

Arizona House Panel Votes to Expand Vaccine Exemptions Amid Ongoing Measles Outbreak


https://gizmodo.com/arizona-house-pa...+%28Gizmodo%29

Have they tried thoughts and prayers?

[Spurtacular]

Did you kidnap your brother's kids yet?

[RandomGuy]

RG, I think that you should reserve judgement until you have a child who has had a vaccine and goes into an anaphylactic reaction right in front of you - gasping for breath, breaking out in hives all over, curled up in a ball while the pediatrician frantically searches for needle and epinephrine. I hope you realize that your child could sit beside another child (from a foreign country) with any number of diseases in say DisneyWorld and be exposed to said disease compared to my child in a classroom in which all the other kids are supposed to be vaccinated. I say supposed to be vaccinated because guess what I learned at work last week - they let homeless and migrant kids (e.g. from Haiti when they had that earthquake) in without being vaccinated (and they can continue to be unvaccinated their entire tenure [there's no checking]) - of course, better they're in school than on the streets - regardless of what disease they could possibly pass on to the other students. So who knows who your kid is sitting next to.

My main concern is for my child - and his possibility of dying from anaphylaxis is greater than from chickenpox or measles.

Unfortunately they have discovered that measles... is a bit deadlier than the anti-vax propaganda that you use to "inform" your decisions wants you to believe.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25954009

Immunosuppression after measles is known to predispose people to opportunistic infections for a period of several weeks to months. Using population-level data, we show that measles has a more prolonged effect on host resistance, extending over 2 to 3 years. We find that nonmeasles infectious disease mortality in high-income countries is tightly coupled to measles incidence at this lag, in both the pre- and post-vaccine eras. We conclude that long-term immunologic sequelae of measles drive interannual fluctuations in nonmeasles deaths. This is consistent with recent experimental work that attributes the immunosuppressive effects of measles to depletion of B and T lymphocytes. Our data provide an explanation for the long-term benefits of measles vaccination in preventing all-cause infectious disease. By preventing measles-associated immune memory loss, vaccination protects polymicrobial herd immunity.