Tony Parker Vs Manu Ginobili...

[Diego20]

Exactly. Not for people who try to compare bench players going against second units like Ginobili to starters. Or even worse, bench role players like Mills who play restricted minutes.

Ok so, Lebron James should play in the second unit for the CAVS, he would probably average 50 points per game, good idea. Kawhi should play in the secound unit too, he would average 50 points per game.

[Snaq O'Meal]

Exactly. Not for people who try to compare bench players going against second units like Ginobili to starters. Or even worse, bench role players like Mills who play restricted minutes.

How do you explain those negative DBPM and BPM numbers?

2016 nba playoffs	PER	TS%	TOV%	WS/48	OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
manu	16.0	.586	10.9	.191	4.2	1.2	5.4	0.4
tony	14.3	.499	14.7	.079	0.7	-1.5	-0.9	0.1

Also, while you keep belittling our bench players despite their effectiveness in closing out playoff games against starters, ever thought of reading up on statistics and the significance of sample sizes before you involve Boban again in these discussions? You are in danger of looking as stupid as one of those three sexual Laker fans who infest another subforum downstairs.

[SASdynasty!]

How do you explain those negative DBPM and BPM numbers?

2016 nba playoffs	PER	TS%	TOV%	WS/48	OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
manu	16.0	.586	10.9	.191	4.2	1.2	5.4	0.4
tony	14.3	.499	14.7	.079	0.7	-1.5	-0.9	0.1

Also, while you keep belittling our bench players despite their effectiveness in closing out playoff games against starters, ever thought of reading up on statistics and the significance of sample sizes before you involve Boban again in these discussions? You are in danger of looking as stupid as one of those three sexual Laker fans who infest another subforum downstairs.

You've identified the problem and yet still try to argue it. The reason I don't compare advanced stats between starters and bench players or role players is that it doesn't translate. I keep bringing up Boban to prove that point. Guess what? Boban had a higher BPM in the playoffs than Manu. I'm not the one trying to make sense of it because it's not comparable. Obviously Manu was better but since they play on different units with different minutes, it isn't comparable. There will always be a place for raw production because points are what win games. If you want to pull a few of the dozens of potential advanced stats to prove your point, be my guest. But the fact is, I could pull a few others and prove mine.

I'm not sure how to make this any clearer so I'll try one more time:

I don't compare Parker & Manu's advanced stats for the same reason I don't compare Manu and Boban's. If you can't understand the analogy, I'm not sure I can help you.

[gambit1990]

I don't compare Parker & Manu's advanced stats for the same reason I don't compare Manu and Boban's. If you can't understand the analogy, I'm not sure I can help you.

You guys forgot someone that makes all these guys look like scrubs:

Boban: .336

Advanced stats, lol.

you just compared them dumbass.

[ElNono]

you just compared them dumbass.

Yeah, not to mention that Boban is a huge outlier due to sample size, whereas that's nowhere near the case for TP and Manu...

Then again, that should be pretty obvious for anybody that knows the bare minimum about statistics.

[diego]

manu as a starter:

16.5pts 4.2 reb 4.3 ast 2.2 TO 1.6 stl .59TS 115 Ortg

manu as a sub:

12.5pts, 3.4 reb, 3.8 ast 2.0 TO 1.25 stl .58TS 110 Ortg


tony as a starter:

16.6pts 2.9 reb 5.9 ast 2.4 TO .9 stl .55TS 109 Ortg

tony as a sub:

11pts 2.2 reb 4.2 ast 1.9 TO .5 stl .52TS 105 Ortg

please explain to me why despite the clear advantage of going against reserves both tony and manu play worse as subs?

bonus:
tony as a sub in the playoffs age 27 (2010):

17.6 pts, 3.4reb, 5.5 ast, 2 TO, .75stl, .49FG

manu as a starter in the playoffs age 27 (2005):

21.1 pts, 5.7reb, 4.7 ast, 2.9 TO, 1.6 stl, .51FG

[SASdynasty!]

you just compared them dumbass.

I was being sarcastic to show that comparing players in different roles is dumb. How many times am I going to have to explain this?

[gambit1990]

I was being sarcastic to show that comparing players in different roles is dumb. How many times am I going to have to explain this?

whenever someone shows you parker's advanced stats in the playoffs... your only defense has been "boban". and now you're saying that you were being sarcastic

you're always saying parker is better than manu... and then when i show you manu's advanced stats in the playoffs you say, "comparing players in different roles is dumb"

[SASdynasty!]

whenever someone shows you parker's advanced stats in the playoffs... your only defense has been "boban". and now you're saying that you were being sarcastic

you're always saying parker is better than manu... and then when i show you manu's advanced stats in the playoffs you say, "comparing players in different roles is dumb"

Brother, you honestly can't be serious. There's no way you still can't understand the rhetoric.

1. Premise: Comparing advanced stats of players with different roles & minutes is not good because the results are sporadic.
2. Actuality: You and others constantly post advanced stats of Manu and Parker (different minutes, starter vs bench)
3. Therefore: I reject the comparison on the basis that premise (1) is met under the proposed condition (2).
4. Response: So, to prove that comparing advanced stats of different role players is dumb, I use Boban as an example because his advanced stats are better than anyone on the team while being one of the worst players.

[gambit1990]

Comparing advanced stats of players with different roles & minutes is not good because the results are sporadic.

"because the results are sporadic" spoken like a true kobe fan tbh.

and if it's "not good" to compare "players with different roles & minutes"... then why are you always comparing tony and manu?

[SASdynasty!]

"because the results are sporadic" spoken like a true kobe fan tbh.

and if it's "not good" to compare "players with different roles & minutes"... then why are you always comparing tony and manu?

I compare their production when threads like this are made to show the exact points I'm making here. There are very few if any cases in NBA history where a FMVP who has had much more production than a bench player on his team is said to be worse, even though he scores more, assists more, and shoots better from the field. That starter has also been an All-Star 3 times as much as the bench player and has led the team in scoring and assists for multiple championships and multiple playoff runs to the Finals, where the bench player has never done either even once.

So when the only argument is a random conglomeration of advanced stats for your position, you have to ask yourself, "Is this player really better?" ...especially considering I can take players who sit on the end of the bench and use the SAME EXACT "advanced" stats to "prove" that he's better than anyone on the team apparently (that being Boban).

[diego]

I compare their production when threads like this are made to show the exact points I'm making here. There are very few if any cases in NBA history where a FMVP who has had much more production than a bench player on his team is said to be worse, even though he scores more, assists more, and shoots better from the field. That starter has also been an All-Star 3 times as much as the bench player and has led the team in scoring and assists for multiple championships and multiple playoff runs to the Finals, where the bench player has never done either even once.

So when the only argument is a random conglomeration of advanced stats for your position, you have to ask yourself, "Is this player really better?" ...especially considering I can take players who sit on the end of the bench and use the SAME EXACT "advanced" stats to "prove" that he's better than anyone on the team apparently (that being Boban).

Of course he scores and assists more, he shoots more and plays more minutes. He does not shoot better, and FYI, basketball is more than just offense points and assists.

Comparing with boban who has played all of one playoffs as a 12th man to a hof player who has played more playoff minutes than all but 30 players in history shows how salty you are

And you still haven't explained, if bench players are so bad, why are tonys reserve stats substantially worse than his starter stats? Shouldn't his starter quality be outshining all the scrubs and his stats much better?

[diego]

Also, as far as leading scoring and assists for playoff finals runs / championships, Manu in 05 came 2nd to Duncan and Parker in points and assists, but let it be said, he scored 47 more points in that run than Parkers career highest playoff run, despite taking less shots per 36 than Parker in ANY of his playoff runs including last year, and he had a whopping 3 assists less than Parker with a better ast /to ratio (2013 was the only finals run season Parker had a better ast/to ratio). 05 manu trumps any Parker playoff run by a long, long shot.

[SASdynasty!]

Also, as far as leading scoring and assists for playoff finals runs / championships, Manu in 05 came 2nd to Duncan and Parker in points and assists, but let it be said, he scored 47 more points in that run than Parkers career highest playoff run, despite taking less shots per 36 than Parker in ANY of his playoff runs including last year, and he had a whopping 3 assists less than Parker with a better ast /to ratio (2013 was the only finals run season Parker had a better ast/to ratio). 05 manu trumps any Parker playoff run by a long, long shot.

Parker's '07 run was better than Manu's in '05. The only reason Manu had a few more total points was because Tony took care of the Cavs in 4 (a Cavs team that beat the Billups/Rip/Wallace/Prince/Webber Pistons). You shouldn't get extra credit for losing more Finals games. Parker's Finals were much better than Manu's, and Parker was actually the best player in the series. Manu wasn't even the best player on the team in those Finals.

[dabom]

Dat Boobie...

[diego]

Parker's '07 run was better than Manu's in '05. The only reason Manu had a few more total points was because Tony took care of the Cavs in 4 (a Cavs team that beat the Billups/Rip/Wallace/Prince/Webber Pistons). You shouldn't get extra credit for losing more Finals games. Parker's Finals were much better than Manu's, and Parker was actually the best player in the series. Manu wasn't even the best player on the team in those Finals.

which is it, finals series or playoff run? tim duncan was the best player of the 07 team (lead in points and rebounds, despite parker leading in attempts as usual), manu just got closer in 05 than tony in 07, and he did it for more than 1 series
the 05 spurs played 3 more games than in 07, yet manu scored 64 more points on 64 less attempts than tony in 07. But if there were 3 more games, tony could have put up another 80 shots to tie it up!
and even though 04 pistons>05 pistons>>>>>>>07 pistons (name dropping broken webber as if he was an upgrade over ben wallace, ), lets assume they are the same team the cavs beat. The cavs team that beat the pistons, is not the cavs team the spurs faced. Hughes played 44 minutes in 2 games (he averaged 37 mpg in the RS, same in PO until the finals), bumping boobie (went from 16.4mpg in the first 3 rounds, to 34.8 in the finals), damon jones and the corpse of eric snow to play a lot more minutes than in the previous rounds, Z also played a lot less but i think that was more foul trouble than injury... the cavs scored 80 in the finals, a full 10ppg less than they did against the pistons, in fact the spurs and the pistons offense vs the cavs was practically the same (86.0ppg on 42% for detroit, 86.5ppg 44% for sa)... yet according to you the reason we won was because parker scored a lot vs a 20 year old rook starting for the very first time in the playoffs best player in the series

[Diego20]

which is it, finals series or playoff run? tim duncan was the best player of the 07 team (lead in points and rebounds, despite parker leading in attempts as usual), manu just got closer in 05 than tony in 07, and he did it for more than 1 series
the 05 spurs played 3 more games than in 07, yet manu scored 64 more points on 64 less attempts than tony in 07. But if there were 3 more games, tony could have put up another 80 shots to tie it up!
and even though 04 pistons>05 pistons>>>>>>>07 pistons (name dropping broken webber as if he was an upgrade over ben wallace, ), lets assume they are the same team the cavs beat. The cavs team that beat the pistons, is not the cavs team the spurs faced. Hughes played 44 minutes in 2 games (he averaged 37 mpg in the RS, same in PO until the finals), bumping boobie (went from 16.4mpg in the first 3 rounds, to 34.8 in the finals), damon jones and the corpse of eric snow to play a lot more minutes than in the previous rounds, Z also played a lot less but i think that was more foul trouble than injury... the cavs scored 80 in the finals, a full 10ppg less than they did against the pistons, in fact the spurs and the pistons offense vs the cavs was practically the same (86.0ppg on 42% for detroit, 86.5ppg 44% for sa)... yet according to you the reason we won was because parker scored a lot vs a 20 year old rook starting for the very first time in the playoffs best player in the series

BOOOOOOOM

[SASdynasty!]

which is it, finals series or playoff run? tim duncan was the best player of the 07 team (lead in points and rebounds, despite parker leading in attempts as usual), manu just got closer in 05 than tony in 07, and he did it for more than 1 series
the 05 spurs played 3 more games than in 07, yet manu scored 64 more points on 64 less attempts than tony in 07. But if there were 3 more games, tony could have put up another 80 shots to tie it up!
and even though 04 pistons>05 pistons>>>>>>>07 pistons (name dropping broken webber as if he was an upgrade over ben wallace, ), lets assume they are the same team the cavs beat. The cavs team that beat the pistons, is not the cavs team the spurs faced. Hughes played 44 minutes in 2 games (he averaged 37 mpg in the RS, same in PO until the finals), bumping boobie (went from 16.4mpg in the first 3 rounds, to 34.8 in the finals), damon jones and the corpse of eric snow to play a lot more minutes than in the previous rounds, Z also played a lot less but i think that was more foul trouble than injury... the cavs scored 80 in the finals, a full 10ppg less than they did against the pistons, in fact the spurs and the pistons offense vs the cavs was practically the same (86.0ppg on 42% for detroit, 86.5ppg 44% for sa)... yet according to you the reason we won was because parker scored a lot vs a 20 year old rook starting for the very first time in the playoffs best player in the series

Parker was guarded by Hughes, Gibson, & James. They eventually pulled James off because he didn't have the speed to keep up with Parker. And yes Parker was definitely the best player in the series. He was also the best player in the entire 2014 run. Manu was never even the best player on his team for an individual Finals or an entire championship run. Sorry you have to make excuses for why Parker was one of only 2 opponents to ever outplay Lebron in a playoff series, kinda sad really, but at least the excuses prove an admission.

[gambit1990]

manu could play one more year. tony? not so much.

[Play Boban]

manu could play one more year. tony? not so much.

And Manu is five years younger.

[gambit1990]

the 05 spurs played 3 more games than in 07, yet manu scored 64 more points on 64 less attempts than tony in 07.

and against the pistons no less... the reigning champs and a defensive juggernaut.

[SpurPadre]

and against the pistons no less... the reigning champs and a defensive juggernaut.

Manu was THE REAL FINALS MVP in '05 and I'll always believe that tbh.

[diego]

Parker was guarded by Hughes, Gibson, & James. They eventually pulled James off because he didn't have the speed to keep up with Parker. And yes Parker was definitely the best player in the series. He was also the best player in the entire 2014 run. Manu was never even the best player on his team for an individual Finals or an entire championship run. Sorry you have to make excuses for why Parker was one of only 2 opponents to ever outplay Lebron in a playoff series, kinda sad really, but at least the excuses prove an admission.

boobie played more than double his minutes because of hughes' injury. lebrons statline and cir stances are easily more impressive than parkers. not even close to being the best in the series. parkers best playoffs came in 2012-14. in 2007 he got matched up with a rookie and abused him.

[Play Boban]

Manu was THE REAL FINALS MVP in '05 and I'll always believe that tbh.

Truth bomb. Timmy just got it because of reputation. He was 10/27 on field goals in game 7 ffs...

[diego]

boobie played more than double his minutes because of hughes' injury. lebrons statline and cir stances are easily more impressive than parkers. not even close to being the best in the series. parkers best playoffs came in 2012-14. in 2007 he got matched up with a rookie and abused him.

had a bit of spare time so I decided to look at boobie's playoff career a bit...

2007, rookie year:
16.5 regular season mpg
11.8 first round
11.1 second round
24.9 conference finals (hughes injured game 3; game 1 minutes larry hughes 44:38, gibson 5:13; game 6 larry hughes 28:29, boobie 29:02)
34.8 finals (larry hughes played 21.9 mpg in games 1 and 2)

2008:
30.4 rs
29.6 first round
21.4 second round

2009:
23.9 rs
5.1 first round
10.4 second round
11.7 conference finals

2010
19.1 rs
2.1 first round
6.2 first round

that finals was the only time he started and played big minutes in his entire career

that finals timmy had 18.3, 11.5, 3.8, 1.3stl 2.3blk
tony had 24.5, 5, 3.3 .8stl 3 t/o per game on boobie and injured hughes
manu 17.8, 5.8, 2.5, 1.3 stl 2.25 t/o per game

and lebron had 22, 7, 6.8 ast, 1stl, .5blk, 5.75 t/o per game on bowen and duncan

best player in the series