Duncan>Hakeem.

[smrattler]

This thread is 17 pages long and ALL OVER THE PLACE.... Iverson, Maxwell, Shaq, Sam Bowie, Shakira... all kinds of names popping up here.

[kingmalaki]

Really? According to "experts" on the topic, Hakeem is not even in the top 3 of best CENTERS of all-time. In fact, he gets 0 first place votes, and only ONE second place vote, by scoop jackson, so that should tell you something. Whereas Duncan is the best player of all-time at his position. Better luck next time.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...reatestCenters

According to THE PEOPLE WHO PLAYED WITH BOTH PLAYERS. How much more of an expert opinion can you get than Horry’s, who played with Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq?

Hmm, so you don’t think these “experts” would say Hakeem was better than all of the top PF’s as well? He beat two of the top 5 on his way to both of his championships. How is this point relevant since Duncan is clearly not a center? Is your argument now that he would rank above their top 3 (Wilt, Russell, Kareem)?

Really? So his PERs aren't better than Hakeem's? I thought they were...

Did you not read the other posts on how flawed the PER rankings are, especially when you are comparing players/teams from two different era’s? So does this mean Dirk > Duncan since he has higher PER ratings?

[ambchang]

According to THE PEOPLE WHO PLAYED WITH BOTH PLAYERS. How much more of an expert opinion can you get than Horry’s, who played with Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq?

People always brings this argument up as some kind of be all and end all argument, but there are three flaws:
1) Horry and Elie won first championship with Hakeem. The first one is always sweeter, just ask Jordan.
2) Horry was a 2nd year player. His first exposure to a great player was to Hakeem.
3) Player have preferences in style, just like you and me. If I played with John Stockton and get the ball 20 times from him a game, vs. playing with Isiah Thomas and getting the ball 3 times a game, I may either say Stockton > Thomas because I like to shoot, or I may say Thomas > Stockton because he can take over games, it really depends on the style.

Hmm, so you don’t think these “experts” would say Hakeem was better than all of the top PF’s as well? He beat two of the top 5 on his way to both of his championships. How is this point relevant since Duncan is clearly not a center? Is your argument now that he would rank above their top 3 (Wilt, Russell, Kareem)?

Did you not read the other posts on how flawed the PER rankings are, especially when you are comparing players/teams from two different era’s? So does this mean Dirk > Duncan since he has higher PER ratings?

I have to agree that it makes little sense to say greatest PF > 4th greatest center, this is definitely comparing apples and oranges. However, if I was to build a team from scratch, and if I were to pick between Duncan and Hakeem, I would pick Duncan 8 times out of 10.

[kingmalaki]

People always brings this argument up as some kind of be all and end all argument, but there are three flaws:
1) Horry and Elie won first championship with Hakeem. The first one is always sweeter, just ask Jordan.
2) Horry was a 2nd year player. His first exposure to a great player was to Hakeem.
3) Player have preferences in style, just like you and me. If I played with John Stockton and get the ball 20 times from him a game, vs. playing with Isiah Thomas and getting the ball 3 times a game, I may either say Stockton > Thomas because I like to shoot, or I may say Thomas > Stockton because he can take over games, it really depends on the style.

For these to be flaws in the argument you would have to KNOW that these are the reasons behind why they made their statements. Do you know either personally or are these just your assumptions. If you don't know either personally, then you are giving some pretty flawed reasons to try and justify why these teammates said Hakeem was better (not a better teammate, but [/B]BETTER[/B]). The bottom line is both of these players said Hakeem was better, and that opinion is worth more than fans on a message board who aren't pro athletes and never played with the two being discussed.

I have to agree that it makes little sense to say greatest PF > 4th greatest center, this is definitely comparing apples and oranges. However, if I was to build a team from scratch, and if I were to pick between Duncan and Hakeem, I would pick Duncan 8 times out of 10.

That's what I would expect to hear. I, as a Rockets fan, would pick Hakeem. Again, it seems like most neutral fans and the teammates willing to comment are pro Hakeem as well.

[TheAuthority]

Like I said, this is all going to be moot when Duncan retires with 6 or 7 rings. Again, then there will be no question who the better player was.

[kingmalaki]

Like I said, this is all going to be moot when Duncan retires with 6 or 7 rings. Again, then there will be no question who the better player was.

I doubt it. He has more rings than both Hakeem and Bird now, and I don't see anyone saying he is better (outside of SA). It seems most pundits realize that it's easier to win les now than it was in the 80's (when you had the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons and Sixers) and the 90's (Bulls). I still give him props for winning them but no one even mentions the Spurs teams in the same breath as any of those teams (not that they mention Hakeem's Rockets either)....basically I'm saying he does not have 4, 6 or 7 les in those eras.

[Demo Dick Marcinko]

I doubt it. He has more rings than both Hakeem and Bird now, and I don't see anyone saying he is better (outside of SA). It seems most pundits realize that it's easier to win les now than it was in the 80's (when you had the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons and Sixers) and the 90's (Bulls). I still give him props for winning them but no one even mentions the Spurs teams in the same breath as any of those teams (not that they mention Hakeem's Rockets either)....basically I'm saying he does not have 4, 6 or 7 les in those eras.

That's your semi-educated opinion. I'd expect no less from a rockets homer, no crime in that. And outside of Horry and Elie and some casual fans, who has ever stated that Hakeem was unequivocably better then Duncan head to head? Not dismissing what two players stated. But it would be wise not to base your opinion that Hakeem > Duncan based on their opinion solely.

Since we can't compare players who played in different eras head to head, here are some interesting factoids:

Hakeems careers stats were marginally better then Tims.
Tims PER rankings were marginally better then Hakeems.
((twisting and convoluting stats to suit one's arguement is probably the 2nd greatest trick ever pulled))

It is a well known consensus that Tim is arguably the greatest PF to ever play.
According to BSPN experts Hakeem is the 5th best center of all time.
((Both of the two prior statements are just opinions from the so-called experts, and opinions are just like a holes, everybody has one))

4 (and counting) is greater then 2.
((Pre-emptive strike; the naysayers are going to point out that these 4 les were not won during the NBA's glory days of the Celtics, Lakers and Bulls. I don't care if these 4 and counting les were won during the Ottoman Empire, with Duncan as the one constant it's still pretty freakin' impressive.))



It would have been more difficult for the rest of the league to win les in the 90's had Jordan not decided to take his two year hiatus. If he hadn't taken leave, it's possible, no actually probable that Hakeem would have had zero les. And if you'd ask the rest of the league since 1999, I bet outside of the Spurs, Lakers, Detroit and Miami the rest of the league would say it has been tough enough to win a le; pay particular attention to what Dallas and Phoenix are saying. It just so happens that the CBA has helped with parity and leveled the playing field, but just the same it's just remarkeable that the Spurs have been so dominant during that time frame.

Some of you guys are going through a great deal of trouble to pimp Hakeem over Tim. You're preaching to the choir or worse pissing into the wind. IMO it's too close to call.

[TheAuthority]

I doubt it. He has more rings than both Hakeem and Bird now, and I don't see anyone saying he is better (outside of SA). It seems most pundits realize that it's easier to win les now than it was in the 80's (when you had the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons and Sixers) and the 90's (Bulls). I still give him props for winning them but no one even mentions the Spurs teams in the same breath as any of those teams (not that they mention Hakeem's Rockets either)....basically I'm saying he does not have 4, 6 or 7 les in those eras.

Actually, all you hear about is the Spurs are the next dynasty of the NBA. Guess who the cornerstone of that dynasty is? Tim. Also, they don't compare Duncan and Hakeem because they play different positions. Most people say Shaq is better than Hakeem, and in the same breath, they say Duncan is the best player post-Jordan, so you can connect your own dots with that one.

[Ignignokt]

bobby joe and Malaqueen have been collectively told to stand in a corner to squat and pee while recieving bukkake


-- the CBF.

[kingmalaki]

Actually, all you hear about is the Spurs are the next dynasty of the NBA. Guess who the cornerstone of that dynasty is? Tim. Also, they don't compare Duncan and Hakeem because they play different positions. Most people say Shaq is better than Hakeem, and in the same breath, they say Duncan is the best player post-Jordan, so you can connect your own dots with that one.

The Spurs are the next dynasty., although I hear plenty hate and refuse to call them that (due to no repeat). I rarely hear anyone say that this dynasty was as good as the ones from the 80's and 90's. Those teams just had more talent on them (more diluted league now).

I do not hear most say Shaq > Hakeem. It depends on who you ask.

I rarely hear anyone say Duncan > Shaq, especially since Shaq's teams beat Tim's 3 of 4 times. I realize Shaq having Kobe made a huge difference, but at the end of the day I rarely hear anyone say Tim > Shaq.

Nice post Demo Marcinko.

[kobyz]

Shaq's teams beat Tim's 3 of 5 time and one time it was because of illegal fisher shot.
and remember that shaq play with kobe.

[Brutalis]

The Lakers on everyone, that's why now nobody..now.. gives a except Laker fans, I knew this would happen as did many people.

You trade Duncan for DRob in 94' and sadly to say it's a better outcome for Spur fans and not so anymore for Rocket fans. The world today know Duncan is one of those.. forever type players. ask even true Laker fans, they have been through several. And about Duncan on some of those deep 90s squads. TD makes people around him a winner from just being one. He wants to win and that's the whole jist of it all no drama or glitz, glamor. He just takes his pay, says no more than he can do, and gets the most important goals done. Hakeem could not have stopped and younger quicker version of himself.

This whole thread is tiresome and old.

[TheAuthority]

The Spurs are the next dynasty., although I hear plenty hate and refuse to call them that (due to no repeat). I rarely hear anyone say that this dynasty was as good as the ones from the 80's and 90's. Those teams just had more talent on them (more diluted league now).

I do not hear most say Shaq > Hakeem. It depends on who you ask.

I rarely hear anyone say Duncan > Shaq, especially since Shaq's teams beat Tim's 3 of 4 times. I realize Shaq having Kobe made a huge difference, but at the end of the day I rarely hear anyone say Tim > Shaq.

Nice post Demo Marcinko.

It depends on who you ask? They asked a panel of ESPN's experts and they said Shaq was the better player. It wasn't particularly close, either.

You rarely hear anyone say Duncan > Shaq? Maybe you were living under a rock during the NBA finals when everyone on the broadcast and everyone on the cooler-talk type shows was saying Duncan is the best player of the post-Jordan era.

[kingmalaki]

It depends on who you ask? They asked a panel of ESPN's experts and they said Shaq was the better player. It wasn't particularly close, either.

You rarely hear anyone say Duncan > Shaq? Maybe you were living under a rock during the NBA finals when everyone on the broadcast and everyone on the cooler-talk type shows was saying Duncan is the best player of the post-Jordan era.

Please find me some quotes with respected folks saying Duncan > Shaq.....

I don't put too much stock into what folks on the broadcasts say. their job is to sell what you are viewing at the time. I remember when Shaq and Kobe first won they had a series long special about "the coronation" and how that LA team was one of the best ever. I heard plenty of these same broadcast folks saying what SA accomplished is not dynasty material since there was no repeat. I guess you believe that too??

[ambchang]

For these to be flaws in the argument you would have to KNOW that these are the reasons behind why they made their statements. Do you know either personally or are these just your assumptions. If you don't know either personally, then you are giving some pretty flawed reasons to try and justify why these teammates said Hakeem was better (not a better teammate, but [/B]BETTER[/B]). The bottom line is both of these players said Hakeem was better, and that opinion is worth more than fans on a message board who aren't pro athletes and never played with the two being discussed.

I could easily argue that for these to be arguments at all you would need to know the reasons behind their opinions. There could be many reasons Horry and Elie would say Hakeem was the best, and the least of which was that Horry said it after 2005, playing one year with Duncan, and Elie played only 2 years with Duncan, vs. 5 of his prime years with Hakeem.

[kingmalaki]

I could easily argue that for these to be arguments at all you would need to know the reasons behind their opinions. There could be many reasons Horry and Elie would say Hakeem was the best, and the least of which was that Horry said it after 2005, playing one year with Duncan, and Elie played only 2 years with Duncan, vs. 5 of his prime years with Hakeem.

We can argue anything we want, but how much sense does the argument really make is the question. We can argue anyone's reason for their opinion using your logic...I could pull any reason out of my butt on why I think someone said something. "The sky is blue...well you only think it's blue because such and such". That still doesn't change his conclusion that the sky is blue.

No one knows their reason for saying why (at least none of us). All we know is that they picked Hakeem. At the end of they day his opinion is still that Hakeem was better. You are just trying to look for a way to discredit their opinions....

And by the way, Horry played the majority of his career in LA...with Shaq (7 seasons). He won more les there as well and arguably had more big-time moments in his career there. He also picked Hakeem > Shaq, while in LA. He said the same after he left LA (prior to playing with Duncan). He said the same after playing and winning les with Duncan. Hmm, maybe he just really does think Hakeem is the best....

I respect your opinion that you think Duncan is better. You are a Spurs fan and I'm not suprised. Just note that most neutral fans seem to think otherwise, and so do the only players on record who played with both. And considering one of those dudes played with both of them and Shaq...and still picked Hakeem...I put more stock in his opinion than yours or mine. And honsetly I'm sure you would too if he said Duncan was the best....

[WHOTTABITCH]

We can argue anything we want, but how much sense does the argument really make is the question. We can argue anyone's reason for their opinion using your logic...I could pull any reason out of my butt on why I think someone said something. "The sky is blue...well you only think it's blue because such and such". That still doesn't change his conclusion that the sky is blue.

No one knows their reason for saying why (at least none of us). All we know is that they picked Hakeem. At the end of they day his opinion is still that Hakeem was better. You are just trying to look for a way to discredit their opinions....

And by the way, Horry played the majority of his career in LA...with Shaq (7 seasons). He won more les there as well and arguably had more big-time moments in his career there. He also picked Hakeem > Shaq, while in LA. He said the same after he left LA (prior to playing with Duncan). He said the same after playing and winning les with Duncan. Hmm, maybe he just really does think Hakeem is the best....

I respect your opinion that you think Duncan is better. You are a Spurs fan and I'm not suprised. Just note that most neutral fans seem to think otherwise, and so do the only players on record who played with both. And considering one of those dudes played with both of them and Shaq...and still picked Hakeem...I put more stock in his opinion than yours or mine. And honsetly I'm sure you would too if he said Duncan was the best....

What makes a neutral fan neutral? Just because he says so?

We're going by an internet sports site with little traffic to gauge sports demographics?

Well paint me placenta red, give me a scola strapon, and call me a rocketfan.

[mavs>spurs2]

The Lakers on everyone, that's why now nobody..now.. gives a except Laker fans, I knew this would happen as did many people.

You trade Duncan for DRob in 94' and sadly to say it's a better outcome for Spur fans and not so anymore for Rocket fans. The world today know Duncan is one of those.. forever type players. ask even true Laker fans, they have been through several. And about Duncan on some of those deep 90s squads. TD makes people around him a winner from just being one. He wants to win and that's the whole jist of it all no drama or glitz, glamor. He just takes his pay, says no more than he can do, and gets the most important goals done. Hakeem could not have stopped and younger quicker version of himself.

This whole thread is tiresome and old.

Hakeem was probably the quickest big man ever, he was light years ahead of Duncan in that category.

Hakeem could have at least slowed Duncan down a little, he's a much better defender than Duncan has ever gone up against. And I can't see Duncan stopping Hakeem at the other end since he can't even stop Amare or Dirk, and they are a joke compared to Hakeem.

[kingmalaki]

What makes a neutral fan neutral? Just because he says so?

We're going by an internet sports site with little traffic to gauge sports demographics?

Well paint me placenta red, give me a scola strapon, and call me a rocketfan.

Neutral = I'm not biased by my love for the Spurs or Rockets. We are on a web forum. Unless you have some access to some coaches or more players opinions (besides Horry and Elie) then what else do you have to go on?

[ambchang]

And by the way, Horry played the majority of his career in LA...with Shaq (7 seasons). He won more les there as well and arguably had more big-time moments in his career there. He also picked Hakeem > Shaq, while in LA. He said the same after he left LA (prior to playing with Duncan). He said the same after playing and winning les with Duncan. Hmm, maybe he just really does think Hakeem is the best....

I respect your opinion that you think Duncan is better. You are a Spurs fan and I'm not suprised. Just note that most neutral fans seem to think otherwise, and so do the only players on record who played with both. And considering one of those dudes played with both of them and Shaq...and still picked Hakeem...I put more stock in his opinion than yours or mine. And honsetly I'm sure you would too if he said Duncan was the best....

I have no problems having Hakeem > Shaq, it's perfectly fine by me, but if my memory serves right, Horry mentioned that Hakeem is best of the 3 after winning the championship in 05. He was asked again in 06, and he said Duncan is closing in, so you can take your pick at what that means.
I actually wouldn't put more stock in the opinions of the players than some hardcore fans, and I do mean that. Having in the job in the NBA does not translate to high basketball knowledge (although I am aware that both Horry and Elie are excellent basketball minds), his opinion puts as much weight as some posters here in Spurstalk to me.

[ambchang]

Neutral = I'm not biased by my love for the Spurs or Rockets. We are on a web forum. Unless you have some access to some coaches or more players opinions (besides Horry and Elie) then what else do you have to go on?

And why are you dismissing Barkley's comments? He played with Hakeem, but not with Duncan.

[mavs>spurs2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd24uS_c9mg



Guy was a 1 of a kind badass

[kingmalaki]

And why are you dismissing Barkley's comments? He played with Hakeem, but not with Duncan.

When did Barkley get asked the question who was better between the two and then said Duncan? If you are speaking of the talk surrounding the recent le wins then I don't put much stock into what the commentators say at that time. Last year they said Wade was the best in the league. Before that the LA team was the best ever, etc.

Additionally, I have heard Barkley say Duncan was the best PF...or actually not the best but better than him. he also speaks very highly of McHale. I have never heard him say he is better than those top centers (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Dream, Shaq).

[mavs>spurs2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

another favorite

[mavs>spurs2]

I've yet to see Duncan, or anyone else for that matter, be able to dominate the game at both ends of the floor at the level Hakeem did. Well at least not since Chamberlain, but that was a totally different era. That's why IMO he is second to only Jordan all time.