Temple of Austin Daye

[ceperez]

I'm saying that his length will compensate for his lack of foot speed.

[Mel_13]

I'm saying that his length will compensate for his lack of foot speed.

Perhaps it will in the future, but it hasn't to this point in his 5 year NBA career.

[ceperez]

Now, I am not saying the lane agility test is worthless...it's not. All measureables are useful in adding to the pot when making a soupy conclusion, but people put far too much emphasis on a number here and there. You can't throw all of "Lane Agility Test" and "3/4 time" into the pot and call it a soup. It takes far more ingredients. Again, it's an unfair weighting of the cons uent attributes that make a player. It is how one team trades for value over another. One team may see how certain disadvantages are not as relevant as have been deemed by the masses, and discover novel or not-so-novel ways to utilize a player that has been discarded. Good thing RC and Pop were not weighing Kawhi's lane agility time too heavily during the draft. And, good thing maybe other front offices were? Heck, Kawhi's time isn't even fast for guys his same height, but we're comparing Daye to shorter dudes, despite a probable positive correlation (I didn't not calculate "r", just assumed it from looking at trends and seeming common sense, forgive me.) between height and lane agility time. Someone with a lot of time would crunch those numbers, find some standard deviations, breakdowns within position, medians, means, etc. Not me. Not for free.

Miles Plumlee 10.64 3.36 Look at this speedy mother!
Kawhi 11.45 3.15
Danny 11.30 3.30
Bonner 11.52 3.32
Channing Frye 11.60 3.38 $6.4 million a year
Demarcus Cousins 10.64 3.55
DeAndre Jordan 12.30 3.27 $10 million a year, defensive, quick, athletic FREAK as per DraftExpress
Kevin Durant 12.33 3.45 $16.5 million a year, arguably best player in the NBA
Austin 12.11 3.55 $900k 12/13th man prospect, currently, traded for Nando DeColo (scoring 2 points in Toronto, since)

How much would you have to give up to go get Channing Frye, would he even come, and what improvement over Daye would he be? I am not saying he will be, but I would not be surprised to see Daye be better in several categories, for half the price or less after a season with The Spurs.

BONNER DESTROYS DURANT (And Channing Frye, et. al.)!
GREEN MORE HALF-COURT DEFENSIVE POTENTIAL THAN KAWHI!

Holy ! The little sarcastic meme going around SpursTalk, where people pretend that anyone said that Daye was better than Kevin Durant, and either argue against that straw man, or make hackneyed jokes about it being true...well it is true! At least in the half-court (lane agility)! Wow, just wow. Sign him up for $16.5 million Oh, wait?

He must have better defensive upside than Durant in all aspects of defense that the lane agility measurable definitively determines!

The truth about that lane agility number? The percentage differences between all of those players listed is very small, less than 10% difference across all of them. None of them are elite. They all have relatively pedestrian lane agility times. A truly elite time in the lane agility test seems to be in the low 8's to 9-10, for example. What is the percentage difference between someone in the low 8's and our lock down defenders times, Kawhi and Danny? HUGE percent difference. So, looking at that lane agility time - and attempting to measure their defensive prowess based heavily upon it would be silliness.

Yet, we are (and I use the royal we), attempting to use these negligible differences between Bonner, Kawhi, Green, and Daye to make a DRAMMATIC conclusion that there is no way he will be able to play any defense whatsoever. It's a foundation on sandy ground.

Again, on a time of 11.25-12.25, a .5 second difference here and there, or .7, or .8...not a huge difference there...

Kawhi, our lock down defender? 11.45 - 8.5 (an elite time in that drill) = 2.95 seconds. Wow, Kawhi is one slow mother! Except, wait. He's a badass.

The take-away? Although that lane agility number is not exactly a statistic, putting a whole lot of faith in it telling you whether or not a player is going to be a good defender is dangerous.

There is a lot bigger percentage difference in the 3/4 time, and maybe a better argument against Daye, there, but it's not conclusive, either. 3.55 is not the slowest speed out there, even among starters in the NBA, much less role-playing bench guys.

It's difficult to compare across positions, but that is Pop's job, to find situations where his weaknesses are minimized and his strengths are maximized. When Daye plays, it is not fair to say he is "slow for his position" while omitting the information "he is tall for his position", etc. When he leaves the bench, he doesn't leave those positive aspects of his being on the pine. He takes them with him, into the game. I watched a smaller guy blow by him, one-on-one...and then get his shot swatted back from the side as he went around. Without sounding as if I am trying to attibute super-powers to him, or something, it even seemed as if Daye hedged/baited the smaller player to try to go around him...with the desired result.

Athletic ability is just a component of defense. Bruce Bowen was no athletic freak.

When Daye made that sweet steal and pass to Joseph at the basket, he still had a 12.11 and 3.55, but he was situationally aware.

By the way, isn't it sad that on that little wrap-around ball fake and pass to CoJo (who then passed to Duncan), he didn't record an assist OR a basket. More intangible stuff that he brings to the table. That didn't show up in the box score, but sure displayed some basketball savvy and skill.

Gotta run, late! Take care, and forgive all the typos- and what-not!

+1

[Chinook]

Perhaps it will in the future, but it hasn't to this point in his 5 year NBA career.

I'm still having a hard time getting past him listing Duncan, Splitter, Baynes and Bonner as guards.

[ceperez]

Perhaps it will in the future, but it hasn't to this point in his 5 year NBA career.

That's because he hasn't played for the Spurs.

Look at all the players that didn't do squat in other teams:

Boris Diaw - Got paid a lot but stunk with the Bobcats.
Green - 2nd rounder, D-league player
Marco - Don't recall how many teams he played for before becoming a Spur.
Mills - Never drafted, never left the bench in Portland.
Baynes - Never drafted, played in odd leagues all over the world.

----

Neal - Undrafted, never played in NBA until he got into the Spurs.


Daye by contrast is a #15 first round draft pick. He's got better pedigree than all the other second round picks and d-leaguers that Spurs have ever had!

[littlecoyotecoin]

86 dropping truff bombs.

It is not a truth bomb to argue against a straw man. It is the opposite of truth. It is fallacy. No one is saying "significant minutes" against the NBA's "quickest small forwards", necessarily. This is not an "expectation" as 86 stated. No one is saying that.

Only statements being made are that his numbers don't preclude him from securing at least a 12/13 position on a deep bench, and possibly making a contribution. Nor do those numbers preclude him from having an even higher ceiling. But, no one is EXPECTING that higher ceiling.

Detractors keep having to move the goal posts on the argument because the kid keeps doing well any time he gets the chance. 86 also makes the third straw man argument that he has "weaknesses", when no one said he didn't. So, claiming that he does, as if everyone else is claiming he doesn't, is disingenuous.

My whole post pointed to the fact that his times WERE weak...compared to elite times in those categories...along with weak times for lots of other players that have also found success... Some, tremendous success...despite the "weak" times.

[RD2191]

86 not dropping truff bombs.

[Mel_13]

That's because he hasn't played for the Spurs.

1. Your examples are rife with errors. You can look them up if you like, I don't have the time or interest to point out how absurd some of those comparisons are.

2. Being traded to or signed by the Spurs is not a guarantee of future success. Marcus Haislip, for example, was the #2 overall pick in the draft and was an absolute failure with the Spurs. There are many other examples.

I root for every player that wears a Spurs uni, and I'm generally a sucker for these sorts of rags to riches stories. I hope Daye is a success here and is able to make a contribution to the team in future, but there are reasons why a #15 pick overall is on his 4th team in 5 years. Just as there were reasons why Haislip was playing in Europe. Perhaps Pop will find a way to maximize Daye's positives while minimizing his negatives. I'd love to see it happen, but that story is yet to be written.

[ABC]

Yet, we are (and I use the royal we), attempting to use these negligible differences between Bonner, Kawhi, Green, and Daye to make a DRAMMATIC conclusion that there is no way he will be able to play any defense whatsoever. It's a foundation on sandy ground.

Thanks for looking up the various test numbers. Useful perspective. However, I don't think anyone said "there is no way he will be able to play any defense whatsoever." To try to summarize several posters, people said he looked slow on one on one defense against the Sixers and then used the lane agility test to backup the observation. You can take away the test score if you want, but he still got beat badly one on one. I'm looking forward to watching him some more to see if his other attributes can offset any deficiencies.

[kjhip1]

1. Your examples are rife with errors. You can look them up if you like, I don't have the time or interest to point out how absurd some of those comparisons are.

2. Being traded to or signed by the Spurs is not a guarantee of future success. Marcus Haislip, for example, was the #2 overall pick in the draft and was an absolute failure with the Spurs. There are many other examples.

I root for every player that wears a Spurs uni, and I'm generally a sucker for these sorts of rags to riches stories. I hope Daye is a success here and is able to make a contribution to the team in future, but there are reasons why a #15 pick overall is on his 4th team in 5 years. Just as there were reasons why Haislip was playing in Europe. Perhaps Pop will find a way to maximize Daye's positives while minimizing his negatives. I'd love to see it happen, but that story is yet to be written.

Haislip was the 13th pick but still he was a high pick that didn't pan out. I think Daye has the opportunity to be a good role player. Good find by Spurs even if they were not expecting much.

[coachmac87]

Mel 13 are you re ed?

[littlecoyotecoin]

Thanks for looking up the various test numbers. Useful perspective. However, I don't think anyone said "there is no way he will be able to play any defense whatsoever." To try to summarize several posters, people said he looked slow on one on one defense against the Sixers and then used the lane agility test to backup the observation. You can take away the test score if you want, but he still got beat badly one on one. I'm looking forward to watching him some more to see if his other attributes can offset any deficiencies.

That is the ulative essence of the detractors, I agree. Those are my summarizing words. It was not a direct quote. I did not have time to go back and read it all a second time after Daye's threads exploded after the Sixers game...one quote was "completely immobile on defense" or something to that effect. There are many others. The sentiment was/is (by some people) that he is incapable of being an adequate defender in the NBA. Those numbers were used as evidence that he would be inadequate.

[Mel_13]

Haislip was the 13th pick but still he was a high pick that didn't pan out. I think Daye has the opportunity to be a good role player. Good find by Spurs even if they were not expecting much.

You're right. Thanks. For some reason, I had him mixed up with Stromile Swift. Serves me right for relying on my memory rather than taking the 30 seconds to look it up.

I'm also hopeful about Daye. There is a reasonable case to be made that he can stick on the roster.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Notable criticisms of Daye's defense...

"He got blown by soooooooo easily on D."

"He is the turd in the punch bowl on D."

"It's not knowledge, it's lack of athleticism. Comparison combine numbers for three Spurs players: the first number (in seconds) is the lane agility test time, the second is the 3/4 court sprint...but he'll never even be an average defender."

"Physically, Daye is very limited as a defender."

"...but he isn't keeping anyone in front of them [SIC (him)], and he's too (to defend at the NBA level, at all, is the implication here) weak in the post."

"Daye either needs to get MUCH quicker AND faster (not happening)..."

"Young also posted him up. Several times. Easily."

"...won't play a lick of D."

"...there is no way he will be able to play any defense whatsoever."

That last statement was mine. I don't think it too unfairly represents the statements above it, and they were from just a couple of pages, previous to this one. There are plenty of other statements as harsh or more harsh than these on the game thread pages, etc. So, yeah, it was a summary I was going for...and I think a pretty fair synopsis of what the detractors are claiming. Glad you enjoyed the numbers. It was fun. Wish I had more time to delve into stuff like that.

[ABC]

That is the ulative essence of the detractors, I agree. Those are my summarizing words. It was not a direct quote. I did not have time to go back and read it all a second time after Daye's threads exploded after the Sixers game...one quote was "completely immobile on defense" or something to that effect. There are many others. The sentiment was/is (by some people) that he is incapable of being an adequate defender in the NBA. Those numbers were used as evidence that he would be inadequate.

Sounds about right and I get your point about the numbers not necessarily being a great indicator. I'm looking forward to tonight's game. Hopefully he'll get enough playing time for us to extend this thread out a few more pages

[littlecoyotecoin]

Mel 13 are you re ed?

I enjoy Mel's posts. If it's any consolation. But, then again, I may be re ed.

[Prime Time]

Austin Daye is a Best Case; Frye, Worst Case; Novak kind of player. And we got this in exchange for Nando freaking De Colo. Literally any production he gives is just icing on the cake, what's with all these expectations?

[littlecoyotecoin]

Yeah! That'll be fun! But, I was thinking what a couple have mentioned already. Pop might break him down. Erler, I think his name is, wrote an article regarding that on #ing the rock. Good read if you get a chance. I may miss most of the game but will be looking here along the way to see what I'm missing. Take care and enjoy the game.

[ABC]

^
Thanks! Daye has said all the right things so far. I'm not too worried about his at ude, tbh, although I wouldn't put it past Pop to test him the way Erler suggests. I thought the best part of the article was Erler's plea for a serving job at the end

[Chinook]

littlecoyotecoin is quickly becoming one of the most unsufferable non-trolls on this site. I didn't think there could be something worse than Patty homers. But Daye shills get the nod.

[littlecoyotecoin]

^
Thanks! Daye has said all the right things so far. I'm not too worried about his at ude, tbh, although I wouldn't put it past Pop to test him the way Erler suggests. I thought the best part of the article was Erler's plea for a serving job at the end

Yeah, heh heh. Stampler did the same thing, and I have a friend in the industry (high end restaurant) that was relating a story to me, so I passed it on to Stampler and all I got was crickets, so Erler's on his own!

Given what we've seen of Daye already, I hope he gets as much time as Ayers has to try to improve within our system. I think it could have been some bad fits, previously, and maybe a little bit of a poor work ethic or bad at ude...just reading between the lines. But, he's doing everything right, thus far, here, it seems. And, he knows his weight is an issue. He has a personal trainer. Maybe he has a dietician. He's got skills, maybe some good coaching will really put him over the edge...maybe stop watching weed movies, put down the ass-cake and hit the weight room. I don't want to, but he has some good reason to...tbh, one of the few interesting things to talk about when all we do is win win win...

What a horrible problem to have.

And while we've been going back and forth...a text comes in for potential free tickets! I can work late tomorrow? Instead of today, right?!

[littlecoyotecoin]

littlecoyotecoin is quickly becoming one of the most unsufferable non-trolls on this site. I didn't think there could be something worse than Patty homers. But Daye shills get the nod.

Excellent rebuttal. I will withdraw.

[Chinook]

Excellent rebuttal. I will withdraw.

You don't need to withdraw; you just need to stop spamming people with long shill posts which at best sum up to, "give him a chance", when no one is even arguing against giving him one.

[ceperez]

1. Your examples are rife with errors. You can look them up if you like, I don't have the time or interest to point out how absurd some of those comparisons are.

2. Being traded to or signed by the Spurs is not a guarantee of future success. Marcus Haislip, for example, was the #2 overall pick in the draft and was an absolute failure with the Spurs. There are many other examples.

I root for every player that wears a Spurs uni, and I'm generally a sucker for these sorts of rags to riches stories. I hope Daye is a success here and is able to make a contribution to the team in future, but there are reasons why a #15 pick overall is on his 4th team in 5 years. Just as there were reasons why Haislip was playing in Europe. Perhaps Pop will find a way to maximize Daye's positives while minimizing his negatives. I'd love to see it happen, but that story is yet to be written.

Which draft would that be?

[ceperez]

Austin Daye is a Best Case; Frye, Worst Case; Novak kind of player. And we got this in exchange for Nando freaking De Colo. Literally any production he gives is just icing on the cake, what's with all these expectations?

Yes, Novak kind of player that just happened to get himself 6 rebounds, 2 blocks and 2 steals. Yes, let's ignore those last 3 stats as an anomaly because he was playing against the Sixers.