IN THEIR PRIME, which big man was the best?

[bobbyjoe]

To strengthen Whott's points, look at Shaq when his teammates cannot convert (Games 1 and 2), and look at Nowitzki when his teammates are. You think Dirk is as dominant as Duncan, Shaq, and Hakeem in their primes? no, it's just that it's easier scoring 35 points when you are not getting doubled.

Shaq is well past his prime. He's 34 years old!!! He's at the stage DRob was at in the late 90's now where he's just a great role player, not the beast of years past.

I agree that Dirk has no business in this discussion.

[DirkAB]

Feel free to look up olajuwon's year by year or shaq's, or whatever. Up until Robinson suffered a devastating back injury and voluntarily gave up being the #1 guy, his numbers went up in the playoffs quite well.

Well now that we've established that Robinson's stats took a nosedive at playoff time during his prime, let's look at what Shaq did during his prime come playoff time. Regular season/playoffs

00: 29.7/30.7 ppg 13.6/15.4 rpg 3.8/3.1 apg 3.0/2.4 bpg .5/.6 spg
01: 28.7/30.4 ppg 12.7/15.4 rpg 3.7/3.2 apg 2.8/2.4 bpg .6/.4 spg
02: 27.2/28.5 ppg 10.7/12.6 rpg 3.0/2.8 apg 2.0/2.5 bpg .6/.5 spg

Shaq's FG% stayed fairly even, but dipped a little each year, but nothing like the dive that Robinson's FG% took. It went from 57.4% to 57% in '00, from 57.2% to 56% in '01, and 57.9% to 53% in '02.

I'm sure I'll post Hakeems later.

[DirkAB]

At the top of the list. It's just assumed that no one touches Wilt. Not really much of a debate...

I honestly think that there is a debate, but no real way to compare. I'd rank them like this:

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem
6. Duncan
7. Robinson

It is almost like the top three are set in stone, but not necessarily in that order.

[whottt]

Please...

Don't act like Hakeem never shot sub 50% for a series...he did.
Don't act like Duncan hasn't...in fact he won a le shooting 46% from the field last year.

[whottt]

Here's some facts for the JV team here...

#1. David Robinson, not Shaq, Not Wilt, Not Hakeem, not Kareem, not Duncan...has the highest single season FG% mark for a post season series. It came in his second year in the league. His next best post season was his first year in the league.

So he became a choker? He became soft?

Bull . The decline in his FG% coincides with the departure of Strickland, the injury of Willie Anderson, and the arrival of AJ and Vinny.


#2. David Robinson is only the second man in NBA history to lead an entire post season in boards and blocks, the other being Kareem...not Shaq, not Duncan, not Hakeem.


Thanks for proving my double team points...Drob was doubled more than any of these guys, he had the tiest guards of any of these guys.

Period.

ing AJ wasn't even kept by the Rockets...they didn't even make the playoffs when he was there...do you guys get it?




Yes, as he has been this entire argument, whottt is once again right...

Quite simply, as long as AJ was on the court, you could double team Robinson, and pretty much Vinny too, the others you had to be selective about it and usually could only do it in the fourth...

Go take a closer at their passing stats and you'll see that David Robinson's best years for assists in the playoffs, were his worst FG% totals, he was trying to pass the ball he just didn't have anyone to pass it too.





A quick check of bears me out.


And if you doubt me...then go find another PG that any guys played with, that only made 1 3 pointer in his playoff career(and it wasn't any better from closer in).



David Robinson did not just become a choker after 2 phonomenal playoffs...

In his first 2 years, he had Willie and Rod...the best guard rotation he ever had...

In all those other years he had AJ and Vinny...you weren't going to beat anyone with those guys shooting J's...and other teams knew this, as a result, David Robinson was doubled and tripled for virtually the entire game, and was still forced to try and win it in the fourth.

Teams could do this...and they did it.

This did not happen to Hakeem...Hakeem would usually only get doubled in the 4th...and in those years the Rockets won les, Hakeem's teamates would destroy any team that doubled him...And Shaq's up until this playoff, have always done a good job of this too.

[NorCal510]

The DIESEL

[whottt]

If you guys still want to debate this...go take a look at Shaq's career...his worst post seasons are the ones where he had no All NBA Guard(which wasn't often)...but even then he had guys that would be all NBA guards on his team.



Earlier in this discussion...I wasn't interested in Drob being rated #1...


Until you tools started trying to claim that he had equal talent around him as Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan...ya'll are wrong, he didn't.


Go take a look at Wilt's and Kareem's post season numbers and see if you can find the seasons where Wilt had no All Star Guards, and Kareem wasn't playing with a guy who either was or would be, the NBA's all time leading passer, at some point in their careers....


Then if you still don't get it...go find another guy on the original list that had a PG that only made 1 playoff 3 pointer in a 20 year career(and if you say he had a shot from any closer, I will know you are lying about watching him play)...then go learn what shots are given to players when a bigman is double teamed...

[DirkAB]

More and more insignificant facts, from the insignificant fact machine called Whottt. Where did all them minor accomplishments get him? So keep on trying to explain away why he wasn't a postseason performer, but I think I'm going to have stick to reality, the guy wasn't a leader or a great playoff player like Shaq and Hakeem. So spin on.

[whottt]

AJ is just as good as Kobe Bryant

I did this instead of re quoting your stupid little diatribe on FG% from some earlier posts...seeing as how now that point has now been stuck up your ass, you consider it an insiginifigant, thus, your own argument is insignifigant...I agree it's insignifigant..It's singnifigant only when you are capable of pulling your head out of your ass and realizing that teamates play a signifigant role, and Drob's guards wer the worst. IF you don't realisze that...it's just a dumbass in way over his head.

[DirkAB]

If you guys still want to debate this...go take a look at Shaq's career...his worst post seasons are the ones where he had no All NBA Guard(which wasn't often)...but even then he had guys that would be all NBA guards on his team.



Earlier in this discussion...I wasn't interested in Drob being rated #1...


Until you tools started trying to claim that he had equal talent around him as Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan...ya'll are wrong, he didn't.


Go take a look at Wilt's and Kareem's post season numbers and see if you can find the seasons where Wilt had no All Star Guards, and Kareem wasn't playing with a guy who either was or would be, the NBA's all time leading passer, at some point in their careers....


Then if you still don't get it...go find another guy on the original list that had a PG that only made 1 playoff 3 pointer in a 20 year career(and if you say he had a shot from any closer, I will know you are lying about watching him play)...then go learn what shots are given to players when a bigman is double teamed...

Nobody has ever contended in this thread that Robinson had equal talent around him, at least not that I've seen, and if there has been then it has been a very small minority. But there have been a few people, including myself, that realize his supporting cast wasn't the bunch of bums that you want us to believe that they were, he had some talent around him and there is no way to argue that he didn't. Besides how does that change your opinion? You change your opinion to spite what others believe? That biggest bunch of backtracking bull I've ever heard.

Your true feelings came out when you were pushed, you think that Robinson is better than Shaq and Hakeem in their primes. They came out because, and you even admitted that you are the "ultimate Robinson homer." Your opinion and insignificant facts mean .

[DirkAB]

I did this instead of re quoting your stupid little diatribe on FG% from some earlier posts...seeing as how now that point has now been stuck up your ass, you consider it an insiginifigant, thus, your own argument is insignifigant...I agree it's insignifigant..It's singnifigant only when you are capable of pulling your head out of your ass and realizing that teamates play a signifigant role, and Drob's guards wer the worst. IF you don't realisze that...it's just a dumbass in way over his head.

Seriously, WTF are you talking about? You know that pretty much resigned to the fact that you've been arguing the wrong side, when you resort to making up ridiculous quotes. Are you just hoping that others will believe that I actually said that? Weak.

Here's one for you.

I love it when DRob nuts in my mouth, I live for it!

Actually might be true.

[whottt]

Nobody has ever contended in this thread that Robinson had equal talent around him, at least not that I've seen, and if there has been then it has been a very small minority. But there have been a few people, including myself, that realize his supporting cast wasn't the bunch of bums that you want us to believe that they were, he had some talent around him and there is no way to argue that he didn't.

His guards were bums...complete and total bums, they were cut by mutiple teams in their careers, including some of these other C's teams...they never did anything of note on the court outside of playing with David Robinson, and when David Robinson was subtracted from them...it lead to the worst record in Spurs history and Tim Duncan, the worst negative turnaround in NBA history.

Drob almost always had a good PF, and Elliott was pretty good, but he never had the players that could punish teams when he was doubled...except very early in his career.

And it's just that simple.


All those guys had guards, even back up guards, that had some big scoring games int he playoffs...We just watched Wade drop 41 on the Mavs...

The AJ and Vinny tandem never even had a 30 point game....

When Hakeem was winning les, his back up guards did that for him.

[whottt]

Penny Hardaway was ALL NBA 1st team 3 years in a row.
Dwayne Wade has made at least 2 ALL NBA teams.
Kobe.

Sam Casell did end up being All NBA at some point in his career, and it wasn't even his best season...although, it was Garnette's.

Clyde Drexler was one of the NBA's fifty greatest and was considered Jodan's closest peer for much of his career.


AJ?

Vinny?

Cut and waived and passed around the NBA like 2 dollar s....they didn't even sniff an all rookie team.

That's the difference between Drob and the others.


Karreem?

Yeah...Oscar and Magic...that had nothing to do with all the les he won, now did it?

[DirkAB]

^^^^^^^^So ing what? That doesn't change the fact that Robinson was never able to lead a team to a le. So let's take a page out of your playbook, Robinson would have been as good, actually better than Shaq and Hakeem if he had their teammates! I know it and it is fact, even though it never happened.

Let's not forget one of those bums that played PG, was actually the team leader, not the best player on the team who should have lead the team. It's not David's fault that he didn't have the greatest talent around him, but it was his fault he couldn't even take charge an be a leader to the talent that he did have around him. Just like it isn't your fault that your hero wasn't as good as Shaq or Hakeem in their prime, but it is your fault that you continue to make the jackass arguement that he was better.

[whottt]

I'll say it once again...

But Shaq had Kobe, Penny, and Wade
Hakeem had Cassell, Elie, Drexler...
Duncan had Parker, Manu, and Elie

Drob had....................................go ahead...draw the equivalancy and prove how stupid you are about the game once and for all.

[DirkAB]

^^^^ And I'll say it again, so ing what! You can't assume that Robinson would have accomplished what Shaq and Hakeem did if he did have their teammates. I don't care how much you think you know about Robinson's game, you can't tell me what he would have accomplished in those guys' positions.

it, tell us more about this alternate reality that you've figured out. What would David had done witht he Lakers and Rockets? I'll bet he would have won 5 rings!! No, no I take that back, 7 rings!!! He would have been better than Jordan, and that is a fact! I know it is a fact because I watched the guy play every game of his career. Even thought the guy couldn't lead ing a horse to water, he needed TD and the Little General to take that responsibility from him.

[whottt]

^^^^^^^^So ing what? That doesn't change the fact that Robinson was never able to lead a team to a le. So let's take a page out of your playbook, Robinson would have been as good, actually better than Shaq and Hakeem if he had their teammates! I know it and it is fact, even though it never happened.

So you don't think adding Kobe to the 94-95 Spurs would have made a difference?

They lost 1 game by 1 point and the series went 6 games...

Go ahead you ing tool, tell me Kobe is as good as Vinny.

That's what you are saying...dumbass.

Let's not forget one of those bums that played PG, was actually the team leader, not the best player on the team who should have lead the team.

He had no ing shot. He could not ing shoot. How hard is this to get through your thick ing skull.

It's not David's fault that he didn't have the greatest talent around him, but it was his fault he couldn't even take charge an be a leader to the talent that he did have around him. Just like it isn't your fault that your hero wasn't as good as Shaq or Hakeem in their prime, but it is your fault that you continue to make the jackass arguement that he was better.

I want you to find one le, won by Shaq or Hakeem, where they didn't have a guard, who either was, or would be, an ALL NBA guard.

Prove to me that it doesn't make a diference.

And AJ and Elie>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>AJ and Vinny. Elie being the real leader of the 98-99 team. And a guy who could shoot, and hit big ing shots...for Hakeem especially. Not to mention...Drob was on that team...and Drob was the leading scorer and rebounder against Portland when they took Duncan out of his game. He was also the guy that D'ed the up on Shaq in the Lakers series..

I can't say what's Shaq's worst post season series...but I know for sure which one was his lowest scoring, prior to this year, it was the 99 WCSF VS the San Antonio Spurs and David Robinson...when he struggled to break 20 points in just about every game.


And that 69% FG% mark by chokoing and soft David Robinson in 91 has only been seriously challenged by one guy on this list...Shaq, against us, the year after DRob retired.


There's no reason for me to put Shaq ahead of David Robinson...David beat his ass six ways from Sunday...

He has a winning record against him.
They are tied in the playoffs.
Their common playoff opponents beat Shaq and his teams more convincingly...inspite of Shaq having the better team in terms of ALL NBA players etc.

There's simply no reasson to put him ahead of David.

[DirkAB]

Good lord you are a broken record. I don't care that he didn't have as good of talent, you don't assume what he would have accomplished if things were different. Too bad for him and you, but Robinson will never get that chance to prove it to you that he could have won championships in his prime with a better supporting cast. You have completely taken this debate to fantasyland, and I don't think that there is any bringing you back.

[whottt]

David Robinson has a winning record against Shaq and they are even in the playoffs, actually scratch, when Drob is healthy, he has a winning record against Shaq in the playoffs too...and he whipped Shaq's ass statisitcally in their head to head matchups...

And the common oppnents they had...Rockets in 95, Jazz in 98...kicked Shaq teams out of the playoffs easier than David's.

They beat David's teams 4-2...they swept Shaq.


What about leadership ?

Did Shaq ever win a DPOY, lead the leage in boards or blocks? No he didn't...he won a ing scoring le...Drob did too...head to head against Shaq.

He also got to the FT line as much, but unlike Shaq, Drob was a good FT shooter.

Shaq didn't do anything that Drob didn't do, except win some finals MVP's when he had Kobe...not to mention that Horry guy.

Why should I put him ahead of Drob? Other than the fact that bunch of dumbasses, who think David even played in the 92 playoffs, think I should.

Prove to me why I should.........There isn't a reason, other than the stupid finals MVP's...

[DirkAB]

Did you ever explain why Robinson wasn't able to match his regular season stats in the playoffs, or do what Shaq did and raise them? Have you ever answered why he wasn't the leader that Shaq and Hakeem were? Those are pretty big things, I hope you can explain those.

[DirkAB]

Please...

Don't act like Hakeem never shot sub 50% for a series...he did.
Don't act like Duncan hasn't...in fact he won a le shooting 46% from the field last year.

Not just a series, the whole playoff season, 2 of them matter a fact, in the middle of his prime. I doubt that Hakeem's or Shaq's FG% never dropped 9% two consecutive seasons in the playoffs, especially during their prime.

[whottt]

Yeah whining and demanding a trade and tanking the regular season(on company time) which both of them did...is a real sign of leadership.

I didn't see them leading when their asses were swept, 2-3 times more than Drob..what I saw them do, was be the best players on the best teams, having more talent than David Robinson ever had...and I saw their guys, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Mario Elie...Kobe, Casell, hit game winners...

While I saw David 80FT% shooting SF, choke the game winning FT's.

[whottt]

Did you ever explain why Robinson wasn't able to match his regular season stats in the playoffs, .

Yeah I explained it, in fact I shoved it up your ass by pointing that his first two season in the league were extremely successful...and showed the decline corresponded when Drob was saddled with 2 guards tier than any they(DRob Hakeem, ever had...indeed, one of which was cut by Hakeem's team.


You called that insignifigant...meanwhile, feel to point out those les won by Hakeem and Shaq without benefit of ALL NBA talent at the guard spots...I think you'll find that quite signifigant..then again, you are obviously a dumbass, so maybe you won't.

[DirkAB]

Here's some facts for the JV team here...

#1. David Robinson, not Shaq, Not Wilt, Not Hakeem, not Kareem, not Duncan...has the highest single season FG% mark for a post season series. It came in his second year in the league. His next best post season was his first year in the league.

Wow, now that is impressive! The Spurs must have really kicked ass then. BTW, how did they fair in that series? Didn't they lose in the first round to a team that had only won 44 games in the regular season? In comparison to their 55. But it must have been worth losing 3-1 in the first round in order for Robinson to get that record.

[whottt]

Wow, now that is impressive! The Spurs must have really kicked ass then. BTW, how did they fair in that series? Didn't they lose in the first round to a team that had only won 44 games in the regular season? In comparison to their 55. But it must have bone worth losing 3-1 in the first round in order for Robinson to get that record.

So Hakeem and Shaq never got bounced in first round? Never lost to a lower seed?

They did, they got swept too, both of them many times more than Drob...

Where was their leadership then? Where was it ? How come their rise to leadership coincided with having all NBA talent at the guards spots?

Are you really so stupid that you don't see this easily seen fact?

Are you even watching the finals?

Because nothing proves just how little you know and understand about this game, more than game 3 of the finals.

Watch...learn, then someday you won't your ass kicked in arugments you should win.....

It's not who you are arguing against that's getting your ass kicked...it's the fact that you don't know what the you are talking about and your reasons for why who is better, are stupid, uninsightful, and wrong.