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Welcome to the forum Galileo.
Always wonderful to read someone's opinion about the greatness that is Duncan.
Nicely done. (I'm sure others will come and argue your post so for now I'll revel in it!)
My two favorite basketball players of all time are Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan, so it is amazing to see this discussion here. Both are very underrated. Both were the best in their times. I have watched almost all of their games which have been on TV since I first saw Hakeem when he was a freshman in college in the winter of 1981-82.
That being said, please let me weigh in....
The four most important accomplishments in the NBA are; 1st Team All-NBA, ring, MVP, and Final's MVP, so first I will look at this data:
[note that this provides a perfect balance between team accomplishments and individual accomplishments, as well as a perfect balance between regular season and playoffs. It also scales back accomplishmnets before the MVP awards were given, which balances out the fact the NBA has become more compe ive since it's early years and the 1960s.]
FIRST TEN YEARS OF NBA CAREER - BEST PLAYERS OF ALL TIME
Tim Duncan; 9 1st Team All-NBA, 4 rings, 2 MVPs, 3 Final's MVPs
9 + 4 + 2 + 3 = 18
Michael Jordan; 7 + 3 + 3 + 3 = 16 (career total = 27)
Kareem Abdul-Jabber; 6 + 1 + 5 + 1 = 13 (career total = 23)
Magic Johnson; 7 + 5 + 2 + 3 = 17 (career total = 20)
Bill Russell; 3 + 9 + 5 + 0 = 17 (career total = 19)
Larry Bird; 9 + 3 + 3 + 2 = 17
Hakeem Olajuwon; 5 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 8 (career total = 11)
Tim Duncan has accomplished more during his first 10 years in the NBA than any other player in NBA history. He dwarfs Hakeem, and should easily pass Russell and Magic for his career. He is better than even money to catch Kareem and could catch Jordan if the Spurs can keep winning les. I think he will.
Here is why Tim is the best:
Tim makes his teammates better like no one else in history. I first saw it during the 1995 ACC tournament where Randolph Childress went wild. Tim was there and made it happen. Tim was only 18 years old at the time. Only Bill Russell approaches Tim in this respect, with Bird and Magic next.
Tim is one of the greatest defenders of all time, seven first team selections and 3 second team. When Tim is old, he will still be a great defensive specialist. Young stars will want to come to the Spurs to play with Tim and win a championship. Tim could win championships on the backside of his career like Kareem.
Tim is awesome at position defense.
Tim can guard anyone, including Shaq in his prime.
Tim is unique in that he doesn't go for ball fakes.
Tim boxes out for rebounds better than anyone in the NBA today.
On offense, Tim moves without the ball like Russell and Danny Manning.
Tim sets picks like Wes Unseld.
Tim passes out of the low post way better than Hakeem. Dominating big men NEVER win NBA les if they do not know how to pass out of the low post. Hakeem did not learn how to do this until Rudy T. came on board in 1992.
Tim shoots bank shots like Sam Jones and Phillip 'Doom' Haynes.
Tim posts up on offense like Hakeem. When I watched Tim in the '99 Finals, it totally reminded me of Hakeem. When you can run your offense through a dominant big man, you have a great advantage over your opponent.
Tim can shoot the midrange jumper. I too, saw this in detail in the '99 Finals. Shaq you can stop if you just keep him away from the basket. Not Tim. Hakeem did not develop this shot until the middle of his career, Tim had it at the beginning.
Tim is unique in history in that he does not care if he gets his shot blocked once in a while. Tim knows the odds. He makes a lot of shots because he is not afraid to have one blocked once in a while.
Tim has one of the best basketball IQs of all time, along with Russell, Bird, and Magic.
Tim is a psychology major and psyches out his opponent. His best move last season was psyching out Joey Crawford and getting him kicked out of the playoffs. In a battle of wits almost always won by refs, Tim stood tall.
Tim steps up in crunch time and the playoffs, just like Hakeem, Jordan, Russell and Jerry West. He has a drive to win. His stats are always better in the playoffs. He won an NBA le on two bad ankles in '05. In '04, he hit one of the greatest shots in history in the pivotal game 5 vs the Lakers. In '06, his performance on his bad foot was amazing against Dallas. By comparison, Larry Hughes had the same injury last year in the Finals and was not effective.
Tim shoots 70% on free throws in the playoffs for his career, not bad for a big man.
That said, some have argued that the NBA was tougher in the days of Bird/Magic/Jordan.
Well, first of all, the NBA did not have hardly any international back in those days.
The fact is, Tim does not have great players on his team, he has a couple very good players who are sometimes marginal all-stars. If it were not for Tim, you would not hear much about Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. David Robinson would have faded away, had Tim not come on board.
Tim lead the only "Twin Towers" duo to win a championship, and they won two.
Other Twin Towers did not win; Olajuwon/Sampson, Bowie/Turpin, Rashard Griffith/Thomas Hamilton (Chicago High School), etc.
Hakeem played when the best compe ion for All-NBA was at center, Tim played when the best compe ion for All-NBA was a forward, this balances out.
Go Tim! Tim is best.
If you are playing basketball, and you want to win, the best player is always Tim Duncan.
Welcome to the forum Galileo.
Always wonderful to read someone's opinion about the greatness that is Duncan.
Nicely done. (I'm sure others will come and argue your post so for now I'll revel in it!
Thank you, It's very good to meet other Spurs and Tim Duncan fans.Welcome to the forum Galileo.
Always wonderful to read someone's opinion about the greatness that is Duncan.
Nicely done. (I'm sure others will come and argue your post so for now I'll revel in it!
I live in Madison, Wisconsin. We do not have many NBA fans here.
Have read through the entire 18 pages, and I must say it was very interesting. I have never met people who were so well informed about the NBA before.
Can't wait for the season to begin!
You've found the right place for Spurs fans. And NBA fans. There are a lot of really knowledgable basketball fans here. And some fun trolls as well.
This season looks to be especially fun, with the Spurs trying to repeat.
If you enjoy your time here half as much as I do I can promise you a good time.
Very interesting post
I approve the Super Rookie !
You're welcome, I have been reading the other threads, I just discovered this site about a week ago.
I especially like the flashing sign at the top counting down the time until the season starts. It reminds me of countdown signs for Y2K or for how long until Bush is out of office.
If Tim stays healthy, the Spurs will repeat. I think Tim will slightly improve over last season and get the MVP. Tim was coming off an injury last season, but not this year.
The Mavs will drop during the regular season. Usually when teams choke in the playoffs is because something is wrong. Also, the Spurs led the NBA in point differential last year, so they were really the best team even in the regular season.
The new ball last year may have also affected the Spurs, as at one point they were "only" 33-18, before blowing by everyone the second half of the season. This season, we will have the same leather ball all year.
If the Spurs have the best regular season recond and Tim goes 20-10 and leads the team in scoring, Tim will get the MVP for sure.
The Suns will be tough, but the fact is, they cannot beat the Spurs. Nash is getting old.
NBA basketbal is the best fan sport on the planet. The NFL has way too many players to follow and a high turnover rate because of injury. Nothing sucks more than when your favorite player gets injured. And you can actually see what is going on in basketball, plus it has more scoring plays.
I would like to see a debate between who is better between Jordan and Duncan. I'll take Duncan. Jordan is a guard. He was not a good team player at the beginning of his career and had two top 30 alltime players on his team (according to the book by Elliot Kalb, Pippen & Rodman) for his last three championships.
Duncan > Jordan
>
You're welcome, I have been reading the other threads, I just discovered this site about a week ago.
I especially like the flashing sign at the top counting down the time until the season starts. It reminds me of countdown signs for Y2K or for how long until Bush is out of office.
If Tim stays healthy, the Spurs will repeat. I think Tim will slightly improve over last season and get the MVP. Tim was coming off an injury last season, but not this year.
The Mavs will drop during the regular season. Usually when teams choke in the playoffs is because something is wrong. Also, the Spurs led the NBA in point differential last year, so they were really the best team even in the regular season.
The new ball last year may have also affected the Spurs, as at one point they were "only" 33-18, before blowing by everyone the second half of the season. This season, we will have the same leather ball all year.
If the Spurs have the best regular season recond and Tim goes 20-10 and leads the team in scoring, Tim will get the MVP for sure.
The Suns will be tough, but the fact is, they cannot beat the Spurs. Nash is getting old.
NBA basketbal is the best fan sport on the planet. The NFL has way too many players to follow and a high turnover rate because of injury. Nothing sucks more than when your favorite player gets injured. And you can actually see what is going on in basketball, plus it has more scoring plays.
I would like to see a debate between who is better between Jordan and Duncan. I'll take Duncan. Jordan is a guard. He was not a good team player at the beginning of his career and had two top 30 alltime players on his team (according to the book by Elliot Kalb, Pippen & Rodman) for his last three championships.
Duncan > Jordan
I had so much respect for you until that.
Although I didn't agree with your assessment of Hakeem and Duncan(personally i'd take Hakeem), it was well thought out and you did make some valid points.
But then you come back with this.
Wow, there are certainly a lot of Spurs fans here.Very interesting post
I approve the Super Rookie !
There is nothing I am more sick of than hearing Shaq & Kobe, Shaq & Kobe, Shaq & Kobe & Lebron, Shaq & Kobe & Lebron & the Yankees.
[this is a reference to ESPN radio]
I forgot to mention in my other post that Udoka looks like a brilliant pickup for the Spurs. He seems like a younger Bowen clone and can shoot the three. Bowen can teach him the tricks of the trade.
The eastern conference really sucks, I mean, how could it get any worse. The Celtics are overrated, you'll see, just another 'superteam' that will fall short.
If Hakeem were in the east, he would single handidly take whatever team he was on to the Finals.
Sort of like '81 when Moses led Houston to the Finals because Magic was injured.
According to my point system above, Jordan is the best of all time.
I had so much respect for you until that.
Although I didn't agree with your assessment of Hakeem and Duncan(personally i'd take Hakeem), it was well thought out and you did make some valid points.
But then you come back with this.
But Tim is better after 10 years.
But Jordan dominated in years 11-13.
Tim needs to sweep both MVP awards this season, and then he will be in striking distance of Jordan. That would put Tim at 22 points after 11 years, while Jordan was at 20 points after 11 years, and finished with 27.
PS
1984 NBA draft:
Olajuwon > Bowie > Jordan > Perkins
1997 NBA draft:
Duncan > van Horn > Billups > Daniels
Last edited by Galileo; 09-15-2007 at 06:17 PM. Reason: typo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxrZUSljjA
Around the 4:10 mark Hakeem says who he thinks is the best in the league today
That was a pretty cool video. I just started to get into google video last year, but that was mostly political stuff like Ron Paul, so I am just starting to watch my favorite sports stuff.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxrZUSljjA
Around the 4:10 mark Hakeem says who he thinks is the best in the league today
As I said before, I was a huge Akeem superfan for 10 years from when Akeem was a freshman in college (I was a freshman the same year). My other favorite player was Keith Lee, but he fizzled in the pros.
[trivia - Keith Lee once scored 25 points in an NBA game with 12 rebounds]
So then it was Akeem. But in the winter of 92-93, I became a Hakeem super-duperfan because that is when Hakeem picked his game up to the next level and lived up to his talent.
In my opinion, Hakeem was at the peak of his career in spring 1993. He was a scoring machine, a rebounding machine, and running up and down the court blocking shots at one end and dunking on the other. I still don't know how the Rockets lost to Seattle in round two that year, in game 7. There was nothing I wanted to see more that Jordan vs Hakeem in the Finals because I was confident Hakeem would have smoked 'em. But it never happened. The Rockets got some young talent the next year, Horry & Cassell were key additions that helped Hakeem win his les.
But in '99 Duncan started to remind me of Hakeem. I was so pissed when Duncan got hurt in '00 and really pissed when they lost to the Lakers in '01 and '02.
But by the '03 playoffs, I realized that Duncan was actually better than Hakeem, which is hard to believe.
That is when I became a Duncan Super-duperfan. So the past five years have been nice....
Anyone have more info on Udoka? I'd like to do a little more research on him, see what he's made of. I'd also like to see his lateral mobility on D and the way he uses his hands.
Thanks. =) And welcome to ST!!!
IMO no one will ever surpass Jordan. It really makes me wonder how things would be had he never left for baseball because I really feel like he would have 8 rings instead of 6, making it the most dominant stretch in NBA history.That was a pretty cool video. I just started to get into google video last year, but that was mostly political stuff like Ron Paul, so I am just starting to watch my favorite sports stuff.
As I said before, I was a huge Akeem superfan for 10 years from when Akeem was a freshman in college (I was a freshman the same year). My other favorite player was Keith Lee, but he fizzled in the pros.
[trivia - Keith Lee once scored 25 points in an NBA game with 12 rebounds]
So then it was Akeem. But in the winter of 92-93, I became a Hakeem super-duperfan because that is when Hakeem picked his game up to the next level and lived up to his talent.
In my opinion, Hakeem was at the peak of his career in spring 1993. He was a scoring machine, a rebounding machine, and running up and down the court blocking shots at one end and dunking on the other. I still don't know how the Rockets lost to Seattle in round two that year, in game 7. There was nothing I wanted to see more that Jordan vs Hakeem in the Finals because I was confident Hakeem would have smoked 'em. But it never happened. The Rockets got some young talent the next year, Horry & Cassell were key additions that helped Hakeem win his les.
But in '99 Duncan started to remind me of Hakeem. I was so pissed when Duncan got hurt in '00 and really pissed when they lost to the Lakers in '01 and '02.
But by the '03 playoffs, I realized that Duncan was actually better than Hakeem, which is hard to believe.
That is when I became a Duncan Super-duperfan. So the past five years have been nice....
Thank you for the warm welcome.
Here is Udoka in action:
Blazers at Sonics 11-01-06
Blazers pull it out after erasing a 9 point Seattle lead late in the 4th.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0
Ime Udoka makes some big plays in this clip!
Bill Russell scored 30 points, and had 44 REBOUNDS, in GAME 7 of the 1962 NBA Finals.
I wonder why its called SpursTalk
Why are you posting that you are a Mavs fan?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxrZUSljjA
Around the 4:10 mark Hakeem says who he thinks is the best in the league today
STFU, n00b.I wonder why its called SpursTalk
Well Duncan is not the best cause he is just winning, and winning is not the most important thing in sport, Accually it is not important to win. All you want in sports in to show yourself and lose. Be the best indywidual player in a team sport and put up a showtime everynight.
Olajuwon are u crazy? geez
I think it's amusing, because when Duncan retires with 6+ rings there will be no question who is better. The only question will be where Duncan belongs in the top 5 of all-time.
hmm... yeah... if tim duncan retired right now it'd be pretty close... truth is timmy still has a few years left in him to leave any and all discussion on this subject irrelevant.
I am not sure if you have read this entire thread as it is rather long, but IMO, the above analysis is very flawed for a debate about these two players. These items have been mentioned before but here they are again....
They played two different positions. so that throws out comparing All-NBA honors (only 1 center is selected, while two forwards are).
They played in two completely different era's with completely different squads, so how do you compare les without considering the time that they were won (i.e. against which teams) and the surrounding help over their careers? Additionally, playing in different era's also comes to play in comparing All-NBA honors as the pantheon of centers (Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem) are generally considered > than the top PF's. Duncan is the only one to even get into that convo.
Steve Nash has two MVP's in this era. He has more MVP's than Shaq. Is he better? Dirk just won an MVP in this era. There is a big difference between players like Nash, Dirk and players like Magic, Bird, MJ, etc. Those three are generally considered top 5-7 players of all-time and they won the majority of the MVP's in the 80's and early 90's.
How has he accomplished more than Magic, who went to the Finals 8 times in his first 10 years? Because he got to play the Knicks and Cavs, as opposed to the Celtics, Sixers and Pistons? Again, when mentioning accomplishments you have to mention the entire picture in your analysis.
Yet someone else was always holding him? I respect Tim's defense (it is not on Dream's level but still very good) but let's not speak untruth's.
He seemed to do it just fine in his second season when he got to the Finals. Amazing how much more one seems to be able to share when they have surrounding talent.
Would they have won against the 99 Knicks, who had no center (Ewing injury)? I think two dominant pivots against a team with their center injured makes quite an advantage. In the Rockets case, that is a big difference from facing the 86 Celtics frontline (Parish, McHale, Bird, Walton).
Not unless you can start naming some opposing PF's today that are better than Kareem, Parish, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq (the centers Dream faced).
Let us not pretend that the finals opponent is the only one who counts. I would expect the Spurs going to through the Lakers in 99 and 03 to count as a significantly better achievement than beating the Nets and the Knicks in the finals.
I wouldn't say that the 86 Celtics to be inferior to the 80 Lakers because they had to got through the Rockets vs. the 6ers, would you?
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