Spurs To Retire Avery Johnson's Number 6

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Only the most obtuse of Spur fans would ever argue that Bowen's number wasn't going to get retired.

This is second time in the last month or so you have referred to me as obtuse, Shoog. Have you been watching The Shawshank Redemption?

To clarify my position (albeit a few days late) I think that prior to AJ getting his number retired, there might have been room for debate on Bowen. In all likelihood Duncan, Gino, and Parker will get their numbers hung up as well barring any of them converting to Satanism, signing with Lakers, or setting fire to the Coyote. Of those four players from this championship group you have a no brainer HOFer in Duncan, two guys who could end up there (Parker & Ginobili), and a journeyman who blossomed into an incredible defender with the Spurs.

I'm not hating on Bowen. I'm just saying that just as some had doubts about Elliott getting his number retired because of the gulf of talent between him and guys like Ice and the Admiral, Bowen might have seen similar doubts because of the company he would be in. Retiring #6 removes any sort of room for debate on Bowen.

I will now step aside and let Whottt resume yelling at people.

[SRJ]

Actually...Kerr started that fight with Jordan. He said it was either do it or be Jordan's for the rest of his career.

More whott misinformation. Another lie, if you will.

In ESPN's SportsCentury series, Jordan described what went on there. He said when practice started that day, he figured Phil Jackson must have given the word to the other guards to get very physical with Jordan. So Kerr would guard Jordan and shove him around, as instructed by Jackson, and no fouls were called. On the other end, Jordan got physical in retaliation. Kerr was getting the calls Jordan wasn't, so Jordan got more irritated and even more physical. So Kerr retaliated and got more physical himself. Jordan snapped, punched Kerr in the eye, and Jackson threw him out of practice. After he got home and calmed down, Jordan called Kerr and apologized.

I paraphrased of course, but that is Jordan's account of his punch of Steve Kerr.

[SequSpur]

I don't even consider that he is coaching the Mavs, I look at it as he was a gravy training lucky mofo to have played with Duncan and Robinson.

The Spurs were active every day trying to replace or sign a better point guard. He was the ing weak link on the whole team. Period. Exclamation mark.

As soon as, I mean as soon as Parker got here and destroyed Avery in practice, Avery was ing gone! Gone! uhhh.. did I say gone?! yeah.. gone.....

how simple does the get? Avery hit a wide open few footer to win a game... how many of those ing shots did he miss? tons........ , it was so wide open, there wasn't a player on the same side of the court... They didn't even guard him, he was the player that they left to double team a big.

Seriously, are you that blind? Because he said a team prayer and he talked funny, he gets his jersey retired? There are 5 current players at least! that deserve their jersey to be retired if his ass is getting it..........

It has nothing to do with Dallas or his big mouth. His on the court play and his off the court bull was overrated. Look at the poll, its overwhelming that spurs fan could give a about him.

It's all about David and Tim and now Manu, Tony and Tim... He doesn't even a equate on the got damn scale... What the am I missing?

Cuz he got some assists to the two of the best players ever to play the game? How in the does he benefit from that? He was dumped for an 18 year old french kid from another country who had never played nba ball.

WTF does that tell you? It's not even an argument, is so got damn blatant, I don't see how anyone could say he deserves this? for his play? uh no... cuz he could say the lord's prayer in a twangy voice? uh yeah probably...

AJ is overrated.

Case End.

[SRJ]

The Hall Of Fame is the ins ution which honors great players. Avery Johnson can only get in there the same way I do - a weekend visit to Springfield, Massachusetts.

The retirement of a jersey is a different matter entirely, and Avery Johnson is certainly worthy of that honor.

I will admit that there is a significant amount of overlap between the HOF and retired jerseys. For instance, George Gervin and David Robinson are two players in our history who were known the world over as being elite players, and their induction into Springfield (Robinson isn't eligible yet, but he's a mortal lock) confirms that. But jersey retirements also honor those players who weren't necessarily among the best in the world, but who gave the franchise everything they had and represented it well.

Dave Twardzik's jersey was retired in Portland, Don Nelson's in Boston, Brad Davis' in Dallas, Al Attles' in Oakland - they were about as good, more or less, as Avery Johnson. And while none were perennial All-Stars, they provided consistency for their clubs. They were hard-working, self-made players who produced for the team and also had value in non-statistical ways.

I always admired and respected Avery Johnson; and while I'll admit he can rub the wrong way at times, tell me who's worse to have: a guy who runs his mouth sometimes but works constantly, like a dog, to improve himself and his game, or a guy who doesn't make waves and coasts along on big talent? I'll take Avery Johnson and his kind over the potential All-Stars that don't work hard, that abuse their bodies, that have no love for the game unless they are the Big Men on Campus.

Richard Dumas was a huge talent - but not one team will be retiring his jersey. Ditto Glenn Robinson, Joe Barry Carroll, Len Bias, Oliver Miller, Isaiah Rider, and on and on. Guys like Avery Johnson deserve honors for being true professionals, and I'm glad he'll have his day in San Antonio.

And if it took Don Harris opening his big fat mouth to get it done, then I'm glad he did. We can hang #20 up there too.

Word.

[whottt]

More whott misinformation. Another lie, if you will.

In ESPN's SportsCentury series, Jordan described what went on there. He said when practice started that day, he figured Phil Jackson must have given the word to the other guards to get very physical with Jordan. So Kerr would guard Jordan and shove him around, as instructed by Jackson, and no fouls were called. On the other end, Jordan got physical in retaliation. Kerr was getting the calls Jordan wasn't, so Jordan got more irritated and even more physical. So Kerr retaliated and got more physical himself. Jordan snapped, punched Kerr in the eye, and Jackson threw him out of practice. After he got home and calmed down, Jordan called Kerr and apologized.

I paraphrased of course, but that is Jordan's account of his punch of Steve Kerr.

I didn't lie, Steve Kerr evidentally lied on national TV during a TNT broadcast...

Steve Kerr said Jordan was punking him, in his face, and he had a choice of either sticking up for himself , or, his exact words, "being obedient to Michael for the rest of his career", he chose the first option.


Be careful about throwing the word liar around, because you are uinformed and speaking from a position of ignorance...it make you look like a real idiot.

Not as bad as thinking AJ had a shot of any kind...but an idiot nontheless.

[whottt]

Meanwhile:

Sending a boy to do a man's job
Let him make his own number


Keep sweeping it under the rug, liars.

[FromWayDowntown]

Meanwhile:

Sending a boy to do a man's job
Let him make his own number


Keep sweeping it under the rug, liars.

Honestly, I'm not sure what those statements really have to do with the merits of retiring AJ's number.

[SequSpur]

Guys that can say the Lord's Prayer in a twangy voice don't deserve to have their jersey's retired.

What else could it be?

[timvp]

Honestly, I'm not sure what those statements really have to do with the merits of retiring AJ's number.

whottt just likes rehashing things that the rest of the world has long ago forgotten about. Everyone else has moved on. The people who don't like AJ at least don't like him for things he's done in the last five years.

[whottt]

Honestly, I'm not sure what those statements really have to do with the merits of retiring AJ's number.

Because they illustrate the fact that he's a selfcentered asshole who takes his lack of talent out on rookies and younger players? For starters?


You don't see it...you're a lawyer...you see what you want to see.

[whottt]

whottt just likes rehashing things that the rest of the world has long ago forgotten about.

I didn't realize I was speaking with the authority for the rest of the world...

Last I checked, 2-1 against AJ and you think he's a Saint that can do no wrong...

I'd say the evidence is that you aren't in touch with the rest of the world on this subject.

Everyone else has moved on. The people who don't like AJ at least don't like him for things he's done in the last five years.

Yeah because that's better or something...why?



Anyway...I guess you're right...it's not like he said no team with Tony Parker as a PG will ever win a le or anything...is it?

[whottt]

My question...why do these words need to be forgotten?


Why can't we all just wear a shirt celebrating AJ's leadership...


Why is it bad to bring up stuff he actually said?

[timvp]

Avery Johnson:
assists per game: 5.5

Michael Jordan:
assists per game: 5.3

Scottie Pippen:
assists per game: 5.2

Thanks for proving my point.

Right...I want you to prove the Spurs offered AJ that position...and more than it was just discussed..

Pop told him to come end his career as a player/coach for the Spurs. It was reported by Pop errrrrrrr the local print media.

What more do you want?

I will...if you change your name to, I take that Dallas quote out of context continually shamelessly, and I didn't read the original conditions of the bet.

Are you or are you not a fan of multiple Dallas based teams? Did you or did you not say you like the Dallas Rangers more than the Spurs?

You've previously admitted I won that bet. Are you you now welching on your welch?

[timvp]

My question...why do these words need to be forgotten?


Why can't we all just wear a shirt celebrating AJ's leadership...


Why is it bad to bring up stuff he actually said?

Go ahead. But also remember to wear a shirt that has his follow up comments where he said Parker was already better than him at 21 and the multiple times he's praised Manu.

Tim Duncan also didn't like Tony Parker at first. Do you still hold that against him? Pop and Manu got in arguments when Manu first got here? In fact, after Pop told Manu to do something, Manu famously declined saying, "That's just how I play."

Where are these t-shirts?

[FromWayDowntown]

Because they illustrate the fact that he's a selfcentered asshole who takes his lack of talent out on rookies and younger players? For starters?


You don't see it...you're a lawyer...you see what you want to see.

I'm glad you could stay away from personal attacks and keep this as a discussion of the topic.

Nevertheless, even if AJ was the biggest bully in the world and had the foulest mouth of any "self-centered asshole" ever, what difference does that make to arguing whether his number should be retired or not. The Spurs aren't exactly limiting the rafters to airy-angels, you know.

[whottt]

Thanks for proving my point.

That AJ wasn't a point guard? Or that those guys were? Albeit...not the pass first kind like AJ.

Pop told him to come end his career as a player/coach for the Spurs. It was reported by Pop errrrrrrr the local print media.

What more do you want?

Proof that Pop actually wanted him here and wasn't just jacking with Cuban's cap....more than a just a one sentence blurb saying Pop called AJ....or was it AJ called Pop? Proof that it was more than just a negotiating ploy by AJ...to get more money, which he did.


Either way...you lose, either I am right, or else AJ isn't Mr. Spur....as his jersey retirement would indicate...

Are you or are you not a fan of multiple Dallas based teams? Did you or did you not say you like the Dallas Rangers more than the Spurs?

Not a fan of the Mavericks...ever.

I like baseball better than basketball...BFD. I played baseball...

Is having a favorite sport some kind of crime or something?

You've previously admitted I won that bet. Are you you now welching on your welch?

I am still waiting proof agreed upon at the time the bet was made...either way, I am happy with the results....either I am right, or AJ isn't an iconic Spur...he's a guy who wants to coach the Mavs.


I know...this is the part where you completely contradict yourself by saying Pop didn't think it was a good idea to AJ to coach the Spurs...

[whottt]

I'm glad you could stay away from personal attacks and keep this as a discussion of the topic.

Why would you construe that as an attack?

I was just being honest...the same way I am when I put AJ's statements up there for public perusal...

I know that's for some reason wrong in your eyes...nontheless...I stand by my statements.

Nevertheless, even if AJ was the biggest bully in the world and had the foulest mouth of any "self-centered asshole" ever, what difference does that make to arguing whether his number should be retired or not.

Sure it does...how in the heck are those words of a leader?

And he was saying stuff like that here at the end as well...which is why his butt got run out of town.

The Spurs aren't exactly limiting the rafters to airy-angels, you know.

You tell me why AJ is going up there....

[timvp]

Proof that Pop actually wanted him here and wasn't just jacking with Cuban's cap....more than a just a one sentence blurb saying Pop called AJ....or was it AJ called Pop? Proof that it was more than just a negotiating ploy by AJ...to get more money, which he did.

Either way...you lose, either I am right, or else AJ isn't Mr. Spur....as his jersey retirement would indicate...

I am still waiting proof agreed upon at the time the bet was made...either way, I am happy with the results....either I am right, or AJ isn't an iconic Spur...he's a guy who wants to coach the Mavs.


I know...this is the part where you completely contradict yourself by saying Pop didn't think it was a good idea to AJ to coach the Spurs...

You've previously admitted I was right and were willing to pay out your end of the losing bet. Did you change your mind about being wrong? Do I need to wear a t-shirt with a quote where you admitted you lost the bet?

Not a fan of the Mavericks...ever.

I like baseball better than basketball...BFD. I played baseball...

Is having a favorite sport some kind of crime or something?

A Dallas fan first and foremost is going to preach to Spurs fans about how an ex-player isn't dedicated to the Spurs enough?

Classic.

[SequSpur]

Does anybody else want to chime in? I honestly don't see what the argument is.

1. You like AJ cuz he is a "nice" "faithful" guy.
2. You don't like AJ cuz he really wasn't that good and he received the benefit of playing with better players. He didn't make anyone better.

Why the argument?

I noticed no one wants to challenge my objective thinking, cuz you know I'm right. Avery was a "nice" guy on the team. I remember when he left and they had that post game presentation for Elliott or Robinson or whoever the it was, it was "nice" and "religious"....

Give me a ing break already.

[timvp]

Why would you construe that as an attack?

I was just being honest...the same way I am when I put AJ's statements up there for public perusal...

I know that's for some reason wrong in your eyes...nontheless...I stand by my statements.

whottt -- always a man of dignity and discretion.

Sure it does...how in the heck are those words of a leader?

Uh, those quotes are from after he was gone. He was supposed to remain the leader of the Spurs while he was on the Nuggets?

Seriously?

And he was saying stuff like that here at the end as well...which is why his butt got run out of town.

What he say? Called out Chucky Brown. What else?

[whottt]

Go ahead. But also remember to wear a shirt that has his follow up comments where he said Parker

was already better than him at 21 and the multiple times he's praised Manu.

I'm all for it....

Tim Duncan also didn't like Tony Parker at first. Do you still hold that against him?

Link to Tim Duncan saying the Spurs were sending a boy to do a man's job?


By the way...Tim Duncan > Avery Johnson

You won't see me complaining when they retire Duncan's jersey...

Pop and Manu got in arguments when Manu first got here? In fact, after Pop told Manu to do something, Manu famously declined saying, "That's just how I play."

Where are these t-shirts?

Manu>AJ

I won't complain when they retire his jersey either.

And defending yourself is not the same thing as taking a public dump on a young player...or severely over-rating yourself.

[whottt]

whottt -- always a man of dignity and discretion.

It is my fault FWDT sent a boy to do a man's job?

Uh, those quotes are from after he was gone. He was supposed to remain the leader of the Spurs while he was on the Nuggets?

Hey...next time I see you bashing an ex-spur...expect me to hold you accountable for those statements...

Mr. Kerr.

[FromWayDowntown]

Why would you construe that as an attack?

I was just being honest...the same way I am when I put AJ's statements up there for public perusal...

I know that's for some reason wrong in your eyes...nontheless...I stand by my statements.

I don't have any dispute about you using AJ's statements against him -- though I fail to see their relevance in this discussion. I don't know how "You don't see it...you're a lawyer...you see what you want to see" is anything other than a challenge to me personally, and based solely on my profession and NOT upon anything that I've said here.

Sure it does...how in the heck are those words of a leader?

AJ wasn't being asked to lead the Spurs at the time he made those statements.

And he was saying stuff like that here at the end as well...which is why his butt got run out of town.

He also got his ass run out of town because he was beaten out by Terry Porter in the 2000-01 season and because the Spurs realized that having two over-the-hill point guards wasn't going to work on a going forward basis. Now, I'd agree with you that the fact that he was benched (whether after an injury or not) in favor of Terry Porter might be telling of AJ's quality as a player, but I don't think that statements he made after he left town (or your vague allusions to statements he made before he left town) are relevant to determining whether AJ's number should be retired.

You tell me why AJ is going up there....

There are many reasons -- one substantial reason for that is that in all public settings, those who were participating members of the organization between 1994 and 2001 have generally upheld AJ's reputation as the leader of the club. I understand that you dispute that (at least in part because of the irrelevant post-departure statements that you keep citing) but I also understand that the people who were closest to the situation have generally toed the party line in discussing AJ's contributions to the organization in public. This sort of honor is, as much as anything, a PR issue, and there hasn't been much doubt that until 2006, the PR was all on AJ's side.

AJ's honor is also driven, at least in part, by the fact that while he wasn't statistically great as a player, his combined numbers and accomplishments as a Spur outstrip the combined numbers and accomplishments of the two point guards whose numbers are already retired.

[whottt]

Does anybody else want to chime in? I honestly don't see what the argument is.

1. You like AJ cuz he is a "nice" "faithful" guy.
.

TimVP love AJ because AJ is a ing scrub, who choked, sucked, but put a lot of effort into doing it...

All you ned to do know is that if Timvp was GM of the Spurs, the first 3 players he would draft are AJ, Malik, and Matt Bonner...

Malik, being hte only guy that actually had the ability to impact a game in a major way. But that's not why Timvp would draft him...

[SequSpur]

What does Avery's twangy words have to do with anything? He was a "nice" Spur.

Is that worthy of a retired jersey? That is the question.

Dude wasn't that good.