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I don't think you'd be able to even feed the ball into Shaq. My team is 5 guys of 7'3 wingspan or more. They would be able to dig in and double and recover better than anyone.
LeBron James - Kevin Durant - Michael Jordan - Scottie Pippen - Kevin Garnett
for example would beat
John Stockton - Steve Nash - Michael Jordan - Tim Duncan - Shaquille O'Neal.
See my point? If you're going to be out of position, you want a traditional wing man playing PG and C. You do not traditional small PGs and big Centers having to play out of position.
I don't think you'd be able to even feed the ball into Shaq. My team is 5 guys of 7'3 wingspan or more. They would be able to dig in and double and recover better than anyone.
No, the current model of the NBA is ball movement on offense and an emphasis on team defense over individual D.... sorry that selfish, inefficient isoballers like your boy Kirby are obsolete
Clipper Nation, you're making my point man. If the current model of the NBA is ball movement, how do you have ball movement if it suddenly stops if it gets to the hands of Bogut, Oden, Perkins, DeAndre? And also, if the emphasis is on team defence, then how can you allow weak points in your 'team' defence that can be exploited aka Nash / Paul in the post and/or a big slow guy defending the P&R? The best team defence is 5 guys who can do somewhat of an adequate job defending all areas of the court. And best ball movement scheme is if 5 guys can all pass and shoot and move.No, the current model of the NBA is ball movement on offense and an emphasis on team defense over individual D.... sorry that selfish, inefficient isoballers like your boy Kirby are obsolete
That's the type of roster I'm arguing for. All 5 guys 6'6-6'10 with 7'2-7'5 wingspans weighing 200-240 lbs. Example:
Jimmy Butler
Paul George
Carmelo Anthony
LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Kawhi Leonard
Chris Bosh
Kevin Garnett
Would destroy any combination of players under 6'3 and under 200 lbs and over 6'10 and over 300 lbs. Cause these guys by definition are NOT versatile and cannot defend 5 positions!
Chris Paul Steve Nash Bob Cousy John Stockton Shaq Divac Sabonis Yao.
Last edited by Gino-Step; 03-23-2014 at 08:33 PM.
Yeah that's because LeBron/KD are way better than Stockton and Nash overall, not because they're PGs. And why the do you have Nash and Stockton in the backcourt? You are taking a very re ed angle to make a decent point about spacing
Way to cherrypick some of the most offensively-challenged centers in the league to make your point.... meanwhile, a center like Noah who can pass the ball doesn't hurt ball movement at all, so of course, you completely ignore that....
That's like if I cherrypicked a chucker like Rudy Gay to claim that small forwards suck and don't win championships
Team defense doesn't mean you have zero weaknesses, it means that the rest of the team can cover for your weak points by knowing where they're supposed to be....And also, if the emphasis is on team defence, then how can you allow weak points in your 'team' defence that can be exploited aka Nash / Paul in the post and/or a big slow guy defending the P&R?
I would say CP3 is a more-than-adequate defender for his position, so I'm not seeing your point here.... just because someone is a point guard doesn't mean they automatically can't play defense....The best team defence is 5 guys who can do somewhat of an adequate job defending all areas of the court.
Nice that you excluded the best PG and C example out of your equation because you don't consider Magic a PG because he was to big. Way to cater to your point. Magic and Kareem crush your argument. And maybe you want look at Isiah Thomas and Bill Lamibeer. The Pistons won those les because of a PG and C.
I like PGs like Livingston and C's like Bosh. What I'm saying is I want my 5 guys to be positionless as much as possible. People who can seriously only play either the PG or C position are useless. I like Noah too. I like Splitter cause they can defend guards when needed. Shaq and Brook Lopez cannot for example.Way to cherrypick some of the most offensively-challenged centers in the league to make your point.... meanwhile, a center like Noah who can pass the ball doesn't hurt ball movement at all, so of course, you completely ignore that....
That's like if I cherrypicked a chucker like Rudy Gay to claim that small forwards suck and don't win championships
Team defense doesn't mean you have zero weaknesses, it means that the rest of the team can cover for your weak points by knowing where they're supposed to be....
I would say CP3 is a more-than-adequate defender for his position, so I'm not seeing your point here.... just because someone is a point guard doesn't mean they automatically can't play defense....
Teams that have defined strengths and defined weaknesses will be exploited in the advanced stats age. The best way to cover for that is to have 5 guys who are roughly the same. The best chance of that is to have have players with the quickness, shooting, and passing of smaller guys, but the length, and rebounding of taller guys. LeBron and Durant are the best of this breed. George, Kawhi, Butler, Livingston, are examples of the next tier. The players with the least versatility aka Shaq, Yao, Nash, Stockton etc are the ones you want to avoid regardless of how good they post up or how good they rebound or how good they pass or how good they shoot. You want to avoid being exploitable. In a 7 game series with today's level of scouting, ANYTHING can be exploited.
Thats from several decades ago. I'm saying in today's NBA where it's possible to have do-it-all players with more rounded skillets, you want to have them. Otherwise you will get exploited by other teams who have them.
And how about the last time the Pistons won a le and beat a Laker team with Billups and Ben Wallace as the PG and C? Billups winning the Finals MVP.
Tony Parker winning the last Spurs le MVP.
Yes, and that includes your ideal team's lack of a dependable scoring threat besides Durant
You claim to want positionless basketball, but then you write off two specific positions entirely.... do positions matter or do they not? You can't have it both ways....
Billups was a big guard and Ben Wallace was 6'6 who can defend all areas reasonably well. You're making my point. I don't care if they were labeled a C or not. I care about were they a C that could defend a SF or SG. Were they a PG who could defend a SF or PF.
In the advanced stats age, you cannot afford to have ANOMALIES. Aka players who can only defend certain types. Cause Golden State will post up Harrison Barnes on Tony Parker and put Klay Thompson on him. San Antonio will post up Steph Curry and put Danny Green on him.
What are you going to do to Kawhi, LeBron, George, Durant, Jimmy Butler?
I'm talking about body type and versatility. Not whether they are PG or C's.
PG + Center teams don't win
magic and kareem
Why does everything end with "Kirby" for you? Jesus Christ salty saltenator get it together man. I swear we can post about how the weather is nice in LA and you will respond "No, the current model of the NBA is ball movement on offense and an emphasis on team defense over individual D.... sorry that selfish, inefficient isoballers like your boy Kirby are obsoleteGood it can help heal Kobe's achilles faster
Who said I wrote off two positions? I have Sean Livingston playing POINT GUARD. And I have Chris Bosh playing CENTER. My point is Sean Livingston and Chris Bosh can switch roles and you would be decently OK with Chris Bosh playing point and Sean Livingston playing centre. If you had Magic at PG and LeBron at C and you switched roles, you'd be decently ok.Yes, and that includes your ideal team's lack of a dependable scoring threat besides Durant
You claim to want positionless basketball, but then you write off two specific positions entirely.... do positions matter or do they not? You can't have it both ways....
If you had Nash and Bogut, you'd be FKED. Chris Paul at Center and Blake Griffen at PG? you'd be FKED. That's what I'm trying to argue. The traditional PGs and the traditional C's are not what you want.
I especially love how OP arbitrarily lists ringless 2/3/4 combinations like Harden/Durant/Ibaka, Stephenson/George/West, and Ginobili/Kawhi/Diaw as "winners" but writes Blake/CP3 and Bogut/Curry off as "losers" already....
Again, Magic is not a PG. Magic would have done fine as a PF, as a C, as a SF.PG + Center teams don't win
My argument is about non versatile players: Nash, Stockton, Chris Paul Shaq, Dwight, Bynum Oden etc.
Your non-versatility gets exploited.
Jordan, Pippen, Durant, LeBron, Kawhi, are relatively versatile. You need your whole team to be as versatile as possible. That way you can run a positionless offence and defence and not be exploited on cross-matches.
OP wants to twist any facts we provide against his argument into his favor. OP should just argue with himself......less stress that way.
Nobody with a brain in their head would be okay with Bosh at PG and Livingston at center, are you nuts?
I'd rather have Blake at PG than Bosh - Blake actually has decent handles and can pass the ball
please define what a point guard is, and no, "the shortest guy in the starting lineup" is not the answer
I'm not making this up. Just look at basic roster construction across the NBA.
NBA ball is becoming more like Euro-ball / FIBA / Olympic ball. Look at the types of rosters USA is trying to put together. Anthony Davis, Kevin Love, Chris Bosh as versatile bigs.
Would you rather have a lineup of LeBron, Durant, Kawhi, Carmelo and Paul George or would you rather have a lineup of CP3, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard, and Tim Duncan. You want 5 guys who can all replace each other and guard anyone.
Ben Wallace was 6'6? LMAO! Epic fail.
He's not in the sense that he could have played PF. Just like LeBron is not in the sense he could have and is playing PF.
please define what a point guard is, and no, "the shortest guy in the starting lineup" is not the answer
Nash is a PG. He wouldn't even make college basketball as a PF.
That's what I mean by versatility.
Magic was a PG but not limited to being one. Nash was a PG and limited to being just that which is why you could exploit him and force him to guard a PF off a switch on a Pick & Roll.
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