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Ginobili > Finley
It's funny when you start to read other fans boards on wanting to trade their good players for Manu like I've seen trade Finley for Ginobili to the Mavs.
Ginobili > Finley
Would the spurs let go of ginobilli for Nowitski? Probably not, it's hard to put a value on winners.It's funny when you start to read other fans boards on wanting to trade their good players for Manu like I've seen trade Finley for Ginobili to the Mavs.
Well, Nowitski it's the best international player in the NBA, I will give Tony or Manu + any other player of the Spurs except Duncan.
Dirk is very near of Duncan's level of play.
Dirk and Duncan have different styles.
Duncan likes playing in the low post, and Dirk likes shooting the ball.
Dirk is pretty much a tall SF/SG.
He's very coordinated for a guy of his size.
I'm with whott, all the hate's here on this thread.
Go check out the various fantasy basketball bulletin boards, Manu's one of the apex players in the league. You can get a good handle on the fans' perspective at some of those places, and Manu's mentioned in the same breathe as Kobe, Tmac, etc.
Manu is the only SG that ranks in the top 10 in the WC in:
PPG
PPS
ADJ FG%
FG%
3P%
FT%
Rebounds
Assists
Assist to TO Ratio
Steals
Steals to TO Ratio
Blocks
Blocks to Foul Ratio
Like most Manu fans say...it's not any one thing that makes him an AS, it's his all around game and balls to the wall style of play.
Ironically the biggest knock on Manu is often his lack of PPG...
Yet Manu makes more points per shot than any guard in the NBA. Period.
Manu is the best all around 2 Guard in the WC and probably in the NBA.
He's better than TMAC that's for sure.
Manu is playing his sidekick role better than Tmac is playing his leading role. He obviously is not the better individual player and talent.
The only thing TMac does better than Manu is take 29 shots per game.
I'd be willing to bet what ever amount of money you want to bet that if you took TMac off the Rockets and replaced him with Manu, the Rockets would be a better team.
When you lose 19 in a row you are automatically disqualified from any debate concerning the best anything anywhere...
Prove me wrong...start with finding another Super Star that has lost 19 in a row, under any cir stances.
Unfortunely many of the NBA 'Stars' today fall into that Jordan mentaility, and all of them pretty much fail. They cannot handle all the possesions, all the shots, and still make their teams efficient. And when the pressure mounts and expectations fall short, those players tend to 'tank'. Its sad that players like Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady and others have fallen into that 'quitter' mode, but thats what happens today in the NBA at times.
The idea of having a set of role players does not always exist on a lot of teams like it used to in the NBA. Now players are more athletic and try to do a lot more individually. If a franchise has a great scoring talent, they will let that player handle the ball as much as Michael Jordan did. Once the player fails to improve the team or make them a playoff contender single handedly (like Jordan could barely do himself) -- then they QUIT. They cannot handle it anymore.
It is exactly this type of INDIVIDUALISM that tends to scew a players value and ability to want to adapt into a system. Instead that so called 'franchise player' would rather BE THE MAN on a poor team, and wait for the pieces to come around him as opposed to mending into a second option on a GREAT team.
It would seem that many players in this league would rather be the MAN on poor teams, and would love nothing more than to simply have great role players plugged around them in hopes of acquiring a le. But unfortunely those situations are not going to work out for most of these so called 'franchise players'.
McGrady is a better player than Manu, he is more talented, and would likely produce a decent amount more in pretty much any comparable situation. He may be a quitter on a bad team, but we also have not seen Manu lead a bad team in the NBA either.
The only thing you can really say is that Manu fills his role better than McGrady filled his as an Orlando Magic player. Isn't it obvious that McGrady is the better individual PLAYER than Manu? Do you really think McGrady would not be a dominant sidekick with Duncan? He won't look like Jordan alongside Duncan, but he will still put up good numbers and help make his team more dominant, with Duncan leading the way.
Individualism today in the NBA sort of scews the perception of some players. Some feel they can carry a franchise like MJ, but obviously cannot. Some get impatient if they do not see improvement around them. Some won't adjust to secondary roles, and rather lose on a team as long as they are getting their PPG.
We do not know how McGrady would react as a Spur. We will find out how he grows as a leader as the season progesses, but as a player of course he is better than Manu.
I never said he would not improve, I said that Beno is going to be so great that we can not keep both, and that in another 1-2 yrs, we should trade TP so we can get something great for him like a real good center or a good backup PF.
Pay attention!!!
No, I don't think McGrady would be as good alongside Duncan as Manu...
What your analysis overlooks...TMac is a ing dumbass and a self centered head.
No I don't think Manu would quit...and there's a very good reason you have never seen Manu on as ty a team as TMac...because Manu himself keeps a team from being totally ty. Tmac doesn't. He doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesnt.
Perhaps if TMac didn't have a propensity for quitting he wouldn't lose 19 in a row.
And don't forget TMac's numerous dumbass statements...like the one that caused his team to get it's ass kicked in the playoffs.
Nikos, I am trying to crystalize the essence of TMac for you because I just don't think you get it.
The Orlando Magic were the worst team in the NBA last season. TMac was their best player.
Now how many players of Super Star Status can say they ever played for the worst team in the NBA? A team that went on the second longest losing streak in NBA history?
TMac lives on that Island of suck all by himself.
In a ing nuts ...the Magic were the worst team in the NBA with TMac...are you saying they couldn't have done that without him?
Exactly what did he do for that team last season? Nothing. They were the worst team in the NBA with him.
And it's an insult to Manu to say he would lay down and quit like TMac did. TMac is a quitter, Manu isn't. It's just that simple.
You don't assume headedness on Manu's part to defend TMac....TMac is the guy that drug it down a level....that's part of why he's not as good IMO.
I never said Manu was a quitter. All I meant was that we do not know if Manu could lead the Magic to a better win total than McGrady did in his tenure.
McGrady quit, and thats a sign of bad leadership. Manu came into a winning system, with a franchise player in Duncan. All he had to do was fill a role. And he has been doing it better and better every damn season. Credit to him for that. He is an intelligent, hard working support player. A winner in general, unselfish, and a champion.
But that does not mean as a player he is better than Tmac. It does not mean that if Tmac were a Spur he would quit.
You seem to forget being stupid does equal 'sucking'. Tmac may be a quitter and not too bright, but he did lead his team into the playoffs one season with average support. Who cares if he assumed his team was going to win? Does that still take away from the fact his team got into the playoffs and played the Pistons tough?
Man, it's nice to read the discussion /debate between two of my favorite posters on the subject of basketball.
So far, I like Whottt's argument better (by a little), but Nikos is kicking Whottt's ass in the avatar category.
Manu>Tmac
Whott is basically putting words into my mouth and twisting my words around.
All I said is Tmac is a better player than Manu. I agreed Tmac did quit last season. I agree that Manu is not a quitter and great role player, and even a solid leader.
But the fact is Manu has not gotten the chance to lead an NBA team, and we do not know exactly how he would do as a team leader. He would not quit, but would he really generate more wins than Tmac did over his tenure in Orlando?
What part of whott's argument are you in such accordance with?
I'm not sure precisely, but if I may put words into Whottt's mouth, I agree that Tmac plays for a paycheck and adoration while Manu plays for a paycheck, adoration and a win.
Bottom line, basketball is sport, and like any other sport we like to break individuals down by their talent and their heart. Manu obviously plays the game with more heart than Tmac, so much more that we can question with straight faces his ability vs. the likes of Tmac.
Not that you did not know this already.
Apologies if I am not making a point.
I guess we are just focusing on different angles of the argument.
Tmac and Manu have been in different situations. The bottom line is Tmac is a better basketball talent, and player. Manu is better at filling his role (if that makes sense).
Tmac did quit, but he has also led his team into the playoffs twice before he decided to 'give up'. That counts for something.
Nikos, T-mac is a better athlete maybe, but not a better player.
Better player on the streets maybe, not on an NBA court.
On an NBA court, T-mac is just more athletic, but he doesn't have the brains or heart to be a "player"
I think that is the weak part of your argument as well. Since we don't know, then we can not make a comparison one way or the other, right?
I guess the argument is weak then? But I dont see how you can form an argument that is not just as weak?
Do you feel Manu could lead an NBA team to the playoffs (with mediocre) support, as Tmac did for two years?
If the answer is no, then you surely can understand my argument.
And give me a real answer RVB, when it comes down to it, if you had to choose one player to start an NBA team, would you take McGrady or Manu?
If TMac had been on the Argentinian team rather than Manu do you think Argentina would still have come home with the gold?
Nikos...
Yes Mcgrady went to the play offs with the magic....but what happened when they started the season like 1-19?
Manu would not allow his team to be 1-19 to start a season.
What we know:
Tmac has led an NBA team of mediocre support to two playoff appearences.
Do you feel Manu could do that, in your gut? Do you feel he is the better player than Tmac?
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