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Bashing the 15th guy on the roster is pretty lame. What do people expect-- a team composed of 15 all-stars, each averaging 20 ppg? Tolliver is filling in while two bigs (Mahinmi & Oberto) get healthy. Give the guy a break already.
I doubt the Spurs are going to get Mutombo. You guys do realize that Tolliver is just here because Oberto is hurt, right? The Spurs had planned on letting him develop in Austin for awhile. The relentless bashing of him in this thread is a tad overboard. He's just a young guy developing, like Mahinmi, Hairston and whoever else.
Bashing the 15th guy on the roster is pretty lame. What do people expect-- a team composed of 15 all-stars, each averaging 20 ppg? Tolliver is filling in while two bigs (Mahinmi & Oberto) get healthy. Give the guy a break already.
He is NOT developing. He's no better today than when the season started, and the case could easily be made that he has regressed. Just because he's young doesn't automatically mean that he is "developing."
Nobody here has said they expect Tolliver to play at an "all-star" level or to average 20 ppg. Those are your words, not ours. What we (or at least I) DO expect is for him to play at a minimally serviceable level above the horrid liability that he has been. But apparently even that is too much to ask.
The Spurs coaching staff thinks he is. They think his defense is better. Just because he's in a shooting slump doesn't mean he's not developing.
Anyway, I am not even saying that the guy belongs in the NBA or not, long term. But I'm saying that you shouldn't expect much at all from a guy who is supposed to be in D League but was just called up because the Spurs have injuries.
The coaching staff had come to the conclusion that his time spent in the D-League helped improve his confidence. Since his call up, he's shot the ball poorly. However, I think you guys are being a bit hard on him. In fact, some of you have very short memories. The guy played pretty well at the outset of the season. He rebounded well, was an average defender, but demostrated intelligent passing skills.
Remember, he's not played a full season in the NBA yet. Therefore, he still IS a developing, young player. The only reason he's getting minutes now is because of Oberto's injury. Does he need to play better to justify his call up? Yes. Should he be cut? no. Give the guy a break. Are you all going to crucify Gist, this time next year when he struggles?
He is vastly undersized for a PF and is getting obliterated defensively by those bigger than him, which is most of the guys he's going up against. All you have to do is watch him play to see that. And yes, you SHOULD expect more from him, independent of the reasons why he's here in the first place. The fact of the matter is that he IS here and this is the NBA. Being something more than nothing is not too high of an expectation, whether he was in the D League a couple of weeks ago or not.
I expect nothing from him. He's a 15th man on a non(partially)-guaranteed contract. Who knows if he'll even be here in another 10 days. If the Spurs want to expect more from him, that's their business. I just know that they have been pleased at his ability to catch on to their defense. And yes, he's too small to play in the post at PF.
To say that you expect "nothing" from someone who is on an NBA roster is patently absurd. I'm sorry, but the cache of quality basketball players with material skills in this world is not THAT lacking.
If, and this is a big if, Ian were healthy, Tolliver's shortcomings would be a moot point and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Pop likes a couple of bigs, who can spread the floor, on the roster. In my mind, Tolliver has assumed Bonner's backup spot in the rotation. While Bonner has been promoted to the Horry spot. Obviously, the coaching staff has eyed this young man for some time. I'm willing to wait it out to see if he improves over the course of the season. Unless, of course, a more proven player or promising rookie is brought in.
Okay, I expect that he plays hard, listens to the coaching staff and knocks down some shots every once in a while. I don't expect that he can guard PFs in the post and I don't expect him to be a powerful force offensively. He's not ready to play against NBA compe ion and he might be cut soon. When you are the 15th man, you are usually inactive or in D League. He's only on the Spurs right now because of Oberto and Mahinmi's injuries.
The dude is 6'8. Half the PFs in the league are 6'8.
I'm well aware of why he's on the team, but that does not excuse his horrendous level of play. He's a PF and he's shooting 31%. Let that marinate for a few seconds. Then remind yourself that his meal ticket is that he's allegedly a "shooter" even though he's currently under 22% from 3. That is a horrific degree of underachievement, and to say that one shouldn't expect more than that from Tolliver or to "cut him a break" (as others have written) is beyond comical. As stated before, playing hard and listening to the coaches are non-negotiable traits - that's what they're SUPPOSED to do - so to use that as the litmus test for vetting Tolliver's worthiness or justifying his total non-contribution on the court is utterly ridiculous....much like Tolliver's play this season.
Last edited by Steve-O-Matic; 12-28-2008 at 03:36 PM.
Damn, who declared a fatwa on Tolliver?
Apparently Steve-O-Matic.
First year Spurs stats for Malik Rose and Anthony Tolliver.
Malik
G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF. RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF . PPG
53 0 8.1 0.434 0.333 0.639 0.8 0.9 1.7 0.4 0.4 0.1 0.83 1.50 3.0
Tolliver
G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG . BPG TO.. PF. .PPG
14 0 12.1 0.327 0.229 0.500 0.8 1.6 2.4 0.7 0.4 . 0.1. 0.36 0.80 3.5
Tolliver has more minutes per game than Malik did.
Malik already had a year's worth of NBA experience when joining the Spurs.
Is this comparison valid?
i watched the game and yes his d sucks. he cant gefend the pick and roll if his life depended on it. he got beat 3 plays in a row before pop called a time out.
Do you watch Spurs games? Tolliver has progressed a huge amount. When preseason started, he had no idea what he was doing. His development from preseason to regular season was obvious. And now since his stint in Austin, he's rebounding better, boxing out, he's bringing more energy and he's even trying to alter shot at the rim.
Tolliver sucks right now but his suckage revolves mostly around his inability to knock down shots. As I said since the Spurs invited him to training camp, Tolliver making it as an NBA player depends on him shooting at least 37-38% on three-pointers. He hasn't done that thus far and that's why he doesn't look like an NBA player. The other areas of his game aren't great but those skills would be good enough if he were a knockdown three-point shooter.
The one thing Tolliver does extremely well that makes me hope that he makes it is his high-low passing. With Horry gone, Tolliver is by far the best big on the Spurs at passing it to TD from the key. His passing in general is actually really good for a big but his high-low passing is a talent the Spurs need -- especially if teams start to front TD on a consistent basis.
Overall, I'm not in favor of giving up on Tolliver just yet. You don't find many energy bigs who can pass and supposedly knock down threes. He fits what the Spurs need and all it would take for him to change a typical Spurs Fan's opinion of him is for him to start hitting more three-pointers.
Do I think he'll become a good enough three-point shooter at some point? Probably not -- I've been skeptical the whole time -- but if he does, he'd suddenly become helpful.
Oh and I especially wouldn't waive him now that Bonner has inexplicably regressed in every area over the last few weeks.
thats exactly what was thinking yesterday. He has the potential to have an Horry type role with the Spurs. High IQ, big man who can spread the floor and very smart passing skills.
The only thing that stinks is his inability to knock down OPEN shots. Im sure that Tim and Pop are hoping he finds his stroke really soon so they can put him in the rotation. IMO if he can knock down the 3 point shot at a good %, id put him in the rotation over Bonner.
He is a really smart player, and as you said I think the passing is something that could make him really valuable, especially if his shooting "comes back". I would give him up if we could get another back up big such as Deke or someone similar.
Dude, just because someone was playing poorly momentarily does not make his other statement untrue.
I swear, sometimes it seems like no one that posts actually watch the games.
Way to quote out of context. Good job.
i think thats a bit harsh, but still valid. "energy and hustle" alone does not make someone an nba caliber player; this guy needs to learn how to shoot. he played some trashy summer league games - i wasnt impressed - and was somewhat average in the d-league. at this stage he probably shouldnt be getting minutes. forget his shooting and we roll right onto his D- dont get me started! hes undersized and a liability on that end of the floor.
however, he will probably improve. if he learns how to shoot he can be a solid player due to his nice size.
ok, so maybe his improvements are not exactly clear, but i dont think he has "regressed." assuming he does improve, i see tolliver as a part of the spurs future.
just remember: clubs need to plan for the FUTURE and holding on the young players to see if they develop is only smart!
Tolliver at low level games (summer league + D-league) :
3P : 37/71 (52%)
Tolliver at high level games (preseason + regular season) :
3P : 14/61 (23%)
It's quite puzzling given that these shots are mainly open 3's. The only explanation of a that big difference is something mental. Tolliver needs to solve that. You can also have some concerns on what he could do down the road in a playoff game with a lot of pressure.
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