West vs East

[Lakers_55]

Maybe if LA could actually win a Finals without Shaq.

So far only the Spurs are able to actually represent the West.

Well, we won 6 les in LA before Shaq, and 5 in Minneapolis as well. Don't take this personal because I see it everywhere, but I don't understand the mindset that Kobe can't win without Shaq. They couldn't win together in 2004 and Shaq was gone. 2005 meant the lottery and we drafted Bynum. 2006 Phil back and first round out. 2007 first round out. Last year, before the Gasol trade we were 15-13 against teams that made the playoffs that year, 13-3 after which includes two games Gasol was injured. (He went out in first quarter against the Hornets). No Gasol and we are gone in first or second round. The whole Laker history is one of always rebuilding, something only one other team has proven they can do consistently. That team is the Spurs....

Anyway, getting back to the finals in 4 years without a full team in uniform was an accomplishment. We weren't expected back that quickly but there we were. Kobe can and will win without Shaq, the only question is when. Jerry Buss has said he will pay the luxury tax to keep ths team together. If it means he has to invest a few million dollars on a big contract, he will do it. This man is committed to championships. He bought the Lakers in order to beat the Celtics, and we have twice. We want to play them again before they fade again into obscurity.

As long as the Kobe Bryant era lasts, we will be contending. After it's over, we'll be back again, it's in our history. We'll get more championships. You may say the exact same things about the Spurs when Tim hangs up his sneakers.

West > East

[daslicer]

As long as the Kobe Bryant era lasts, we will be contending. After it's over, we'll be back again, it's in our history. We'll get more championships. You may say the exact same things about the Spurs when Tim hangs up his sneakers.

West > East

One of the reasons I have never liked Lakerfans is they come with a sense of en lement. Yeah your team has a history of being able to rebuild but its not that easy in this era and they are so many unpredictable variables that go into rebuilding. I think mainly the Lakers have been very very very lucky when it comes to rebuilding. getting Gasol for free is the best example of luck. Go way back to summer of '96 where the Lakers stole Shaq from the Magic before without have to worry about restriction FA and then ending up with Kobe who orchestrated a deal to play with LA. Those were 2 extreme variable thats fell in place. The odds of getting 2 hall of famers at 2 positions at the same time are not that high. I think the lakers have been very lucky over the last 30 years that they have had the best case scenarios happen to them in trades,fa's, drafts. Rebuilding a le contender is not easy you have to have lots of luck. Nothing is guaranteed as evident by what has happened with celtics the last 20 years up until last season.

Don't get ahead of yourself just because LA is big market that its easy to rebuild a team into a le contender easily. Go look at NYC and Chi both have suffered from mediocrity during this decade.

[Lakers_55]

One of the reasons I have never liked Lakerfans is they come with a sense of en lement. Yeah your team has a history of being able to rebuild but its not that easy in this era and they are so many unpredictable variables that go into rebuilding. I think mainly the Lakers have been very very very lucky when it comes to rebuilding. getting Gasol for free is the best example of luck. Go way back to summer of '96 where the Lakers stole Shaq from the Magic before without have to worry about restriction FA and then ending up with Kobe who orchestrated a deal to play with LA. Those were 2 extreme variable thats fell in place. The odds of getting 2 hall of famers at 2 positions at the same time are not that high. I think the lakers have been very lucky over the last 30 years that they have had the best case scenarios happen to them in trades,fa's, drafts. Rebuilding a le contender is not easy you have to have lots of luck. Nothing is guaranteed as evident by what has happened with celtics the last 20 years up until last season.

Don't get ahead of yourself just because LA is big market that its easy to rebuild a team into a le contender easily. Go look at NYC and Chi both have suffered from mediocrity during this decade.

The biggest reason why I am active here and not on a Laker board is I prefer to hear opposing fan points of view and not listen to Laker fans drooling all over our team. I will disagree with you on the fact that Laker fans think it's an en lement. We see it as something we just go ahead and do. Former and current owners Jack Kent Cooke and Jerry Buss were commited to getting the best to play here. Former GM Jerry West was commited to keeping the Lakers fine tuned through Showtime to the new millenium. Boston used to retool on a regular basis, they just lost their way for 22 years.

As far as getting Shaq and Kobe, Jerry West rolled the dice and won. First, preceding this, the Lakers had a young rising team, capable of contending for a le before Shaq wanted to leave Orlando, and before anyone had heard of Kobe Bryant. West already had gotten by the Kareem/Magic/Worthy/Scott/Cooper era. First step was to take a gamble on trading our only center, Divac to the Hornets so they would draft Kobe and trade him to us. I think we swapped first round picks as well, but that's irrevelant, it worked for the Hornets, so they agreed. There was no guarentee then that Kobe would turn into the player he is today. As a matter of fact, he didn't even become a starter until his 3rd year. Here's his career stats:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bryanko01.html

Kobe took a lot of heat his first season, jacking up airballs in a close final game loss against Utah. Or was that his second season? No matter. West scouted Kobe himself and predicted greatness.

As far as getting Shaq, that was the second part of Jerry's gamble. Shaq wanted out of Orlando and they were ready to let him walk. Our first offer wasn't enough to sway him. I don't remember exactly what West did, but we dumped someone's contract to free enough space to up the offer to convince Shaq to come west. Also, Shaq wanted to come to LA. He had appeared in a couple of movies, Shazam, and Steel and was interested in more roles. Seems he never did....

I believe the Jerry West legacy as GM speaks for itself.

Mitch Kupchak replaced Jerry and has taken some heat. He did try the experiment with Malone and Payton, but he had to do something, the league had adjusted to the Shaq/Kobe show. He is off the hotseat for now, thanks to the Gasol. deal, which contrary to popular myth, Jerry West had no hand in arranging....

A bit about the Gasol deal...Here's the first thread made about the Gasol trade:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...ighlight=gasol Not anything in there about a conspiracy involving Jerry West. That came later...either after the Lakers started winning, or Popovich questioned it publicly. What did he say, the NBA should investigate the deal's legitmacy?

Here's a thread about a rumor of a Gasol trade in December of 2007 to the Bulls. Note post #10.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...ighlight=gasol

I remember seeing somewhere Phoenix was looking to trade for him a year ago as well, can't say who they would have given up. Let's just put the trade on the head of the Memphis GM, and see how the pieces he got fall into play as they rebuild. There have been far worse GM deals. Back in 1980, the Warriors traded Robert Parish and a #1 draft pick to the Celtics for a center named Joe Barry Carroll. Celtics used the draft selection to choose Kevin McHale. I think most of the discussion I have seen is targeted against the Lakers because they are the enemy to most people. That is to be expectd here at SpursTalk, and as I said, this is where I want to be involved.

Now, onto Kobe winning without Shaq. Kobe came into his own in 1998-9 and had a big role in getting us the le in 2000. We were having a hard time closing out series in the playoffs that season. Up 2-0 vs. the Kings, won it 3-2. Up 3-0 against the Suns, won it 4-1. Up 3-1 against Portland before winning 4-3. I know someone may want to prefer to call it a Portland choke, but fact is, we have far more playoff comebacks like this than losses. Also, I will counter, just reverse the first and the second half: Headline is, "Lakers surge to huge lead versus Blazers, hold off furious Blazer comeback in second half". Ok, on to the finals. Lakers had 2-1 series lead versus the Pacers. Game was in overtime and Shaq fouled out. The play was total BS, Shaq didn't come close to the guy he "fouled". Kobe then stepped up and shot the Lakers to victory and a 3-1 lead, all without Shaq. He also still had a sore ankle. He sprained it early in the series and missed a game. If Kobe doesn't perform, Pacers win and have game 5 at home. Game 6 was close until the end and there was either a questionable call that could have given the Pacers a shot to go ahead, or a major blunder by the Pacers that sealed their fate. I don't remember, I would have to plug in my DVD of the highlights to see. A game 4 Pacer win changes the way games 5 and 6 unfold, but the fact is, Kobe got us to 3-1.

Here's the videos of the overtime, have a look at Kobe winning without Shaq:




My preference is to add to this thread rather than start a new one. I don't need to see more threads full of Laker fan sucking. Maybe one day, I will make a thread out of this, I just don't know. At the least, I may link this post.

Thanks, and all replies are welcome.

[WayOutWest]

I think the lakers have been very lucky over the last 30 years that they have had the best case scenarios happen to them in trades,fa's, drafts.

There is no such thing as 30 YEARS of luck (good or bad). The Lakers just know how to take care of buisness. Luck was getting TD in the draft, skill has been surrounding TD with a championship caliber team for almost an entire decade. Big difference and the Lakers sucess is not based on luck.

The Lakers have rebuilt twice for le teams, the 80's team was built from scratch, no member of the previous le team was on that squad. Same with the Shaq/Kobe era, AC Green being the exception, they ran off three les with no members of the 80's era team. The Magic to Shaq championship rebuild is the fastest in NBA history.

[papashango]

I don't think the East has caught up with the West. I still don't think the Cavs are for real yet. The West has the track record. In any given game give me the top 8 West teams over the Top 8 East teams.