Game Thoughts: Spurs @ 76ers - Jan. 16

[Brazil]

The spurs organization want the team be on top of shape for the POs, physically the spurs have ups and downs, against Phily their lack of "desire" is related to that.
This team must be 110% physically to play his bb this is not the case, the regular season is the pre heating period.

[Blackjack]

You could see this loss coming the way Philly has been playing since the 2nd half of their San Antonio game. The 'Sixers annihilated Portland with their bounding, attacking, energetic style and their uncanny ability to score in the paint is impressive. They did the same with the Spurs.

I'm not sure how some of you are suprised with this loss.

I actually expected the Spurs to go 2-1 in there last three, with the lone loss coming against the Sixers. (Knowing the matchup nightmare they present and the success they've had historically against the Spurs in Philly) The Sixers aren't a scrub team.

When you combine the facts of how they've been playing recently, with the amount of size/speed/athleticism they possess across the board, the Spurs have zero room for error with their lack of athleticism to cover up for the occasional (or not so occasional) mental-lapse defensively. It's one of the main reasons (since about '05) that you see a quality team like the Spurs go from blowing-out, to getting blown-out by teams, in such a sudden manor.

Without near flawless execution of the defensive gameplan, and the right amount of energy/focus needed on a given night, this it what Spurs fans should expect when this team is faced with the upper-echelon teams/ones holding a significant athletic advantage.

[roycrikside]

Quiet ? Manu took the most shots of our team and he wasted almost all of them. i wouldn't talk of a quiet night but rather an horrible one. It's the worst manu we can have: the one nailing stupid 3 after stupid shots to be the super hero. he has shown wiser game than that recently.

Those who ask tony to shoot less don't know anything about bball. Tony has to shoot more and to be more aggressive to be useful for the spurs.

What does he bring if he's not aggressive ? he's not the kind of player who can be passive and still remain useful. i could understand it if the spurs are largely ahead. but not in a close game.

Tony taking 10 shots is a bad thing for the spurs.

1. For the record, I agree that Tony taking only 10 shots is a bad thing for the Spurs.

2. However, that doesn't mean that Manu taking 11 is something to complain about, unless you're complaining that he should've taken more. Which he should've, since you know, his Total Shooting %, his scoring efficiency, and his points per shot are all still tops among the Big Three.

3. It wasn't at all surprising that Manu took only one shot in the first quarter because Pop made the odd decision to play Tony the whole first quarter, which he usually doesn't, and by now I hope we all realize that Tony playing = Manu not shooting.

4. And if you think I'm crazy about Point #3, then consider that Tony hasn't assisted on a Ginobili field goal in over two weeks. The last time was January 2, at Memphis. It was one of 13 assists Tony has had to Manu in the '08-09 season. Out of 189. That's less than 7% of his total assists to a teammate who's the club's second best option for Tony to pass to.

5. Manu, meanwhile, who's averaging almost half as many assists as Tony, has created more baskets for him (15) than his point guard has created for him (again, 13). Nobody finds this the least bid odd? I'm the only one?


But yes, unabashed COM member, whatever you say. It's just a myth Tony doesn't pass to Manu. Don't let numbers and logic get in the way of your beliefs.

[quentin_compson]

Very appropriate description of the game, timvp. Welcome to the Forum quentin compson.

Thanks, and nice way to quote Led Zep, by the way.

Some of you guys are probably right about this loss not being that surprising. If I remember correctly, the Spurs pretty much always got their butts kicked in Philly in recent years.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Thanks for the thoughts timvp. This is the first time I've read them without seeing the game. I'm even more amazed at the job you do with them, and I have a new appreciation for how deep you cover the games for us.

I'm really beginning to wonder about Duncan's lack of intensity on defense. He came into the season so strong and helped keep us afloat with the injuries, it doesn't make sense to me that his defense would be the piece of his game that he let slide. I expect we'll see his defense back in form by the end of the RRT, but I'm curious about why it hasn't shown up consistently yet.

I really wonder if a part of it is because he is so irritated with the lack ofinside help that being the lone defnesive anchor without a secondary shot blocker/rebounder is taking his toll on him. There were plenty of times last night where he bowed his head and looked like he had the life sucked out of him.

I don't think Croshere is quite the answer, but considering a player with a low post game doesn't seem to be on the market, hopefully Austin can get at least rebound better than Bonner has

[timvp]

1. For the record, I agree that Tony taking only 10 shots is a bad thing for the Spurs.

2. However, that doesn't mean that Manu taking 11 is something to complain about, unless you're complaining that he should've taken more. Which he should've, since you know, his Total Shooting %, his scoring efficiency, and his points per shot are all still tops among the Big Three.

3. It wasn't at all surprising that Manu took only one shot in the first quarter because Pop made the odd decision to play Tony the whole first quarter, which he usually doesn't, and by now I hope we all realize that Tony playing = Manu not shooting.

4. And if you think I'm crazy about Point #3, then consider that Tony hasn't assisted on a Ginobili field goal in over two weeks. The last time was January 2, at Memphis. It was one of 13 assists Tony has had to Manu in the '08-09 season. Out of 189. That's less than 7% of his total assists to a teammate who's the club's second best option for Tony to pass to.

5. Manu, meanwhile, who's averaging almost half as many assists as Tony, has created more baskets for him (15) than his point guard has created for him (again, 13). Nobody finds this the least bid odd? I'm the only one?


But yes, unabashed COM member, whatever you say. It's just a myth Tony doesn't pass to Manu. Don't let numbers and logic get in the way of your beliefs.

Nice stat work

If Spurs fans want to travel down the "TP needs to pass it more to Manu" boulevard, I have a lot more respect for someone who can explain their reasoning.

And like I've said previously, I don't like the extreme different Manu splits depending on who the point guard he's on the court with. With Parker, he's become a spot three-point shooter. With Hill, he turns into Allen Iverson. Both sides need to meet in the middle ground.

Lately, I've seen steps in the right direction. Hill isn't as intimidated playing with Manu and has done a better job not totally deferring. And Manu and TP are starting to build their chemistry. A good chunk of Manu's points in the Laker game came with TP on the court with him.

A key for Manu and TP to thrive together is Manu hitting his threes. Otherwise teams can sag on both and it causes too much traffic. When Manu is knocking it down, he can catch pitches from Parker, throw a headfake and then he has a vulnerable, rotating defense in front of him.

The good news is that while Manu and TP haven't gotten the chemistry totally back on track yet, they are still a handful for other teams to guard. Per 48 minutes, the Spurs are averaging 104.1 points with those two on the court. If that improves and the Spurs' defense comes around, that'd be a good omen for future fourth quarters.

And while that's an intriguing stat about the number of assists, I also remember a lot of Ginobili misses on Parker passes during that time frame -- especially on three-pointers. You point to Jan. 2 as the last time Parker had an assist to Ginobili, but a couple nights later Parker at least had one missed assist when Ginobili didn't hit that late three-pointer Parker created. And then the next game against the Heat, I remember at least two three-pointers Manu missed that would have been Parker assists.

I don't know if you are trying to say that Parker is purposely not passing to Manu, which I would disagree with. But I do agree that it'd be nice if Pop utilized a few plays that had Parker passing the ball with Manu going toward the basket. I don't know of such a play in the playbook. It's either pass to Manu for three, let Manu isolate or let Manu run a pick and roll. As it's setup, I'm not sure where Parker is to rack up assists to Manu if Manu is cold from beyond the arc. On the other side of the coin, there are at least a couple plays where Manu is to find a streaking Parker down the paint. Pop needs to give Manu such plays . . .

[dbestpro]

This game was one of Pop's psych jobs. He set up the players to fail by playing Bowen, Udoka and two other smalls on the floor at the same time for crticial periods. As much as it looked like the refs were dogging us in the Magic game it looked like Pop was trying to throw this game. In the end I believe that he decided to save the energy for the Bulls and let the athletic Phil team go. I believe the train of thought was if we try to match Philly in energy and effort we could end up losing both games. So, we give up one to focus on the other all the while Pop gets to give his players the lack of effort speech.

Psych.

[timvp]

why do you feel the need to always bring the fact that tim usually turn it around defensively when the season progresses ?

Because that's been the pattern. No reason to cause false alarm when we've seen this same exact pattern for the last half decade.

Duncan starts decent on defense > Gets bored with defense during the winter months > Pop calls team soft > Duncan gets mad and says he doesn't agree with soft label > Duncan starts to play better defensively as the weather warms up > Duncan peaks defensively as the playoffs begin

If we had not seen the same exact pattern play out each year, I wouldn't mention it. Obviously there will come a year when Duncan won't be able to turn up his defensive play but with as spry and lively as Duncan looks overall this season, I don't think this is the year we've been dreading.

Tim is horrible on defense, that's all. he's our leader on defense, so he has a lot of responsabilty here. but one on one, he's simply destroyed by any good low post opponent and he has never protected the rim so badly.

This isn't even close to the worst defense I've seen from Duncan at this point in the season. In 2006 at this point, he was about ten times worse. I believe it was 2007 when he was getting lit up by the likes of Brian Cook. This year he actually dialed up his defense a bit earlier in the season so that the Spurs could survive without TP and Manu. He's not playing good defense at the moment but I've seen worse out of him.

Quiet ? Manu took the most shots of our team and he wasted almost all of them. i wouldn't talk of a quiet night but rather an horrible one. It's the worst manu we can have: the one nailing stupid 3 after stupid shots to be the super hero. he has shown wiser game than that recently.

Outside of that flurry in the third quarter, he was really quiet. In the first half, it didn't even seem like he played.

Those who ask tony to shoot less don't know anything about bball. Tony has to shoot more and to be more aggressive to be useful for the spurs.

What does he bring if he's not aggressive ? he's not the kind of player who can be passive and still remain useful. i could understand it if the spurs are largely ahead. but not in a close game.

Tony taking 10 shots is a bad thing for the spurs.

Agree. Especially in a game like last night when almost the whole team was struggling. That's the time Parker should look to score almost every time down the court . . .

[timaios]

When Tony and Manu play together, Tony give the ball to Manu and Manu create his own shot. That's why Tony has not many assists for Manu.

Most of the time, as timvp said, the assists from TP to Manu are for 3-pointers... and Manu is not very good recently with his 3s.

[DPG21920]

I hate that guys like Manu and especially Mason have turned into "spot up" shooters now. That is what I dreaded when everyone was healthy again. I know there is only so much ball to share, but I do not like seeing guys like Mason relegated to just spot up shooter when they can offer so much more.

[timvp]

Do you think Pop needs to bring Bowen back to the starting 5?

I've never been a huge fan of starting Finley over Bowen so obviously I'd be fine with making the switch. That said, I don't think that will happen. Pop has all but said he's limiting Bowen's minutes for the playoffs.

For now, Bowen just has to play better in his spot minutes. Although it'd be nice if Pop put Bowen in before the other team was already rolling at 100% . . .

What do you think is the big difference from the D we were playing without TP and Manu and now?

Mostly Duncan. TD went into survival mode with TP and Manu out. He brought his best defense most nights just so the Spurs would have a chance to win. I think he's relaxed a bit with those two players back in the fold, but I expect him to re-engage soon enough.

On top of that, TP can play better defense than the defense he's currently playing. Plus it takes time for the new guys to adjust to Manu's roaming ways. A number of times, Mason and Bonner haven't been aware that Manu was going to rotate and that left shooters open.

I went to the game with the wife, we were sitting pretty much right between the bench and the TV analysts (I could watch the game on Sean Elliott's monitor). Couple of tidbits:
- Pop was mad at TP when he let Willie Green score on a backdoor cut in like the second 76er's possession.
- Mason came over to the bench early in the 3rd quarter, and took a couple of pills from Will Sevening. Did he had the flu or something? I thought Roger played decent overall though.
- Pop got furious again at the beginning of the 3rd quarter when Matt Bonner turned it over on an inside pass to TD. He called Udoka from he bench right away.

Good observations. Thanks

Hey guys, long time reader, first time poster.

Nice post.

Post more, lurk less

I'm not sure how some of you are suprised with this loss.

Yeah, this wasn't too surprising of a loss. The Sixers pretty much dominated that last game with the Spurs outside of the first quarter.

What's funny is the Spurs had bad luck to catch the Sixers both times without Brand. With Brand, the Spurs matchup much better with Philadelphia. Without Brand, they are a headache for the Spurs to matchup with ... even on their best night.

[Brutalis]

Hate to say it but our boys are a long way from being a le contender right now.

[timvp]

I hate that guys like Manu and especially Mason have turned into "spot up" shooters now. That is what I dreaded when everyone was healthy again. I know there is only so much ball to share, but I do not like seeing guys like Mason relegated to just spot up shooter when they can offer so much more.

Don't really agree.

Manu's mix of shooting and getting to the rim percentage-wise is the exact same as last year. Plus he's finishing better than ever. The only things he's missing right now are: 1) his three-point accuracy 2) his ability to explode to the rim after catching the ball on the three-point line.

Point #2 is both related to #1 and the fact that he's still getting healthy. Once Manu adds those missing elements, I expect his regular total package to return. He'll get added points due to his three-point percentage and he'll get more free throw attempts due to driving to the basket from the three-point line.

Regarding Mason, he is basically a spot up shooter. His only other main asset offensively is when he's involved in pick-and-rolls. And I do agree that he should get more pick-and-roll looks but it's not like the Spurs aren't letting him penetrate more often off the catch ..... because he simply doesn't have that in his game.

[timvp]

Very appropriate description of the game, timvp. Welcome to the Forum quentin compson. You could see this loss coming the way Philly has been playing since the 2nd half of their San Antonio game. The 'Sixers annihilated Portland with their bounding, attacking, energetic style and their uncanny ability to score in the paint is impressive. They did the same with the Spurs.

During the first half, you could tell this would not be the Spurs' night. A step slow doesn't begin to describe it. This looked like the college kids and street playahs against the over-40s at the park. On top of the speed and quickness on display, the sun was shining on the team dressed in white. From loose balls, to shots that caused even surprised looks and laughs from the shooters, to officials wearing their chef's hats cookin' up some delightful calls, to buzzer-beatering shots that seemed to carry their own sense of en lement...Phila had obviously pushed the "Easy Button".

In the words of Led Zeppelin:
"If it keeps on raining, levee is gonna break...
Going down, going down now
Going down, going down now
Going, going to Chicago."

Greatness.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Games like this are the burden of being a Spurs fan. After all of these years, accepting that this team will not play hard night in and night out is still a difficult thing to do.

You say this all on the premises that the Spurs are robots? You shouldn't take what the media says literally.

They are in fact humans, and like most humans they get fatigued.

[DPG21920]

Don't really agree.

Manu's mix of shooting and getting to the rim percentage-wise is the exact same as last year. Plus he's finishing better than ever. The only things he's missing right now are: 1) his three-point accuracy 2) his ability to explode to the rim after catching the ball on the three-point line.

Point #2 is both related to #1 and the fact that he's still getting healthy. Once Manu adds those missing elements, I expect his regular total package to return. He'll get added points due to his three-point percentage and he'll get more free throw attempts due to driving to the basket from the three-point line.

Regarding Mason, he is basically a spot up shooter. His only other main asset offensively is when he's involved in pick-and-rolls. And I do agree that he should get more pick-and-roll looks but it's not like the Spurs aren't letting him penetrate more often off the catch ..... because he simply doesn't have that in his game.

I was speaking more of Mason. He was not as much of a spot up guy with Manu out. He does well with the ball in his hands. Like you said, he is very effective in the pick and roll, not to mention he is a good "dribble-drive-dish" guy. I understand you can not run things through him all the time, especially when paired with Manu and Tony, but I would like to see him get a little more action.

He is doing fine as a spot up shooter, but I think he can do more if used in conjunction with different line ups.

[HarlemHeat37]

I also don't understand complaints about Mason expanding his game..HIS GAME is to shoot..he doesn't drive well, he's not a great ball-handler, he doesn't create at a high level off the dribble..he's a shooter..when he's hot, you'll see him mix some offense off the dribble, but he's mostly a spot-up shooter..that's what we expected when we signed him..

like I said in the game thread..I usually don't miss Spurs games, so I usually go out later on at night..last night I went out early, because I wasn't interested in the game..I had a bad feeling..playing on the road after a big game against a hot team..a hot, athletic team, which is something we've had trouble with for years..Philly beat us last year, and they played us close in the game we beat them..they have a more talented team this year..

I completely agree about our D though..Duncan is the anchor, and it goes how he goes..clearly the fact that he was dominant defensively in the stretch without TP/Manu is indication that he can still play great D when he's focused..

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

the difference was Tim's will to defend. He probably was aware that without manu and tony to run the offense, the spurs needed to defend to win games.

he doesn't seem to care right now.

I'm not saying Tim's D is great right now, but accusing him of not caring is bull .

Why not discuss the fact that Tim is the lone interior defender most of the time, so effectively he's playing 1-on-2 against the opposition bigs. Bonner floats around and is no help defender, and Tim doesn't play much with Thomas. Give Tim a second serviceable help defender next to him, like Horry or Nazr or Rasho in past years, and watch how much better "Tim's" defence is!

[kace]

1. For the record, I agree that Tony taking only 10 shots is a bad thing for the Spurs.

2. However, that doesn't mean that Manu taking 11 is something to complain about, unless you're complaining that he should've taken more. Which he should've, since you know, his Total Shooting %, his scoring efficiency, and his points per shot are all still tops among the Big Three.

3. It wasn't at all surprising that Manu took only one shot in the first quarter because Pop made the odd decision to play Tony the whole first quarter, which he usually doesn't, and by now I hope we all realize that Tony playing = Manu not shooting.

4. And if you think I'm crazy about Point #3, then consider that Tony hasn't assisted on a Ginobili field goal in over two weeks. The last time was January 2, at Memphis. It was one of 13 assists Tony has had to Manu in the '08-09 season. Out of 189. That's less than 7% of his total assists to a teammate who's the club's second best option for Tony to pass to.

5. Manu, meanwhile, who's averaging almost half as many assists as Tony, has created more baskets for him (15) than his point guard has created for him (again, 13). Nobody finds this the least bid odd? I'm the only one?


But yes, unabashed COM member, whatever you say. It's just a myth Tony doesn't pass to Manu. Don't let numbers and logic get in the way of your beliefs.

easy explanation here (some others posters, timvp and timaios have talked about it): manu is not really the kind of guy that will be a lot "assisted". The only way he will receive an assist is at the 3 point line, and since he struggles here this season, he can't be assisted so much. otherwise, he does create his own shot.


and i definitely don't have any problem with manu taking a lot of shots when he's hot. Eleven shots isn't for sure too much for him. but he doesn't have to force quick shot, especially at the 3. they are often bad shots as it was the case in this particular game.

otherwise, manu, as tim and tp, can take all the shots he wants, that's ok for me.

I'm not saying Tim's D is great right now, but accusing him of not caring is bull .

Why not discuss the fact that Tim is the lone interior defender most of the time, so effectively he's playing 1-on-2 against the opposition bigs. Bonner floats around and is no help defender, and Tim doesn't play much with Thomas. Give Tim a second serviceable help defender next to him, like Horry or Nazr or Rasho in past years, and watch how much better "Tim's" defence is!

i don't know if he really cares but he doesn't SEEM to, which mean he looks passive. he's also destroyed one on one and it has nothing to do with the lack of another big.

Actually, it sometimes seems that tim and tony are bored by some games. i could understand that after all the great PO games they had, but the fact is that the west is too tied to throw away any game. Unfortunately, there are 9 teams for 8 spots.

[benefactor]

You say this all on the premises that the Spurs are robots? You shouldn't take what the media says literally.

They are in fact humans, and like most humans they get fatigued.

Bull .

It has nothing do with listening to the media. Anyone who has followed this team during the Duncan era(especially the past few years) knows that this team just plain takes games off. They get disinterested, get down by a bunch and just mail it in. This is especially true against opponents that are inferior. It has very little to do with fatigue.