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  1. #26
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    And the car these hundreds of shots were supposedly fired into? Oh, they can't find it now??? How ing convenient!

    <snip>

    The military contends it was uninformed about the progress of the negotions for her release, and was unaware Sgrena was on her way. But "the Americans and Italians knew about (her) car coming," Scolari says.

    The US has the troops first firing warning shots, then shooting into the engine block to stop the vehicle. The Italians say they were hit by hundreds of bullets. The Observer reports up to 400 rounds struck their car "from an armoured vehicle. Rather than calling immediately for assistance for the wounded Italians, the soldiers' first move was to confiscate their weapons and mobile phones and they were prevented from resuming contact with Rome for more than an hour." Sgrena's car, the US claims, is now "lost," and cannot be inspected.)
    Rigorous Ins ution

  2. #27
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Doing your duty? I don't blame our boys for protecting themselves.
    There was a PBS Frontline episode this past week that covered some American Army men in Iraq. These guys traveled those roadways everyday on patrol. They mentioned a number of times in the episode that the road to Baghdad airport was the most dangerous in the world. No new news there. The interesting point in the Frontline story was that the patrols shot first and asked questions later. Several times in the story these armored patrols fired at approaching vehicles ... what decision making tactics did they use?: If the troops flashed lights, honked horns, shot warning shots ... and the approaching vehicle kept coming ... BLAMMY ... the vehicle is history. What I failed to understand is what the car's driver was supposed to do ... from what I saw, the "warning" period took all of 3 or 4 seconds, and a car's driver would have no chance to make a decision about what to do before becoming machine gun bait.

    Another interesting point in the episode was when the Americans were fired upon from the street. Three armored vehicles returned the fire ... so many shots it was unbelievable. Then they noticed a taxi all beat to crap and shot up and a dying civilian in the backseat. The army guys started asking, "Who did this? How did this happen? This is terrible!" Well, duh ... all these g.i.'s started firing every which way at anything that moved, and they had to wonder who shot up the taxi?

    So, no, I don't think it was a conspiracy or a 'targeted killing'... but I do think it was scared, young, poorly trained, fire-before-you-get-shot-yourself American G.I.'s PLUS a collousal lack of communication that probably led to this event.

  3. #28
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    There was a PBS Frontline episode this past week that covered some American Army men in Iraq. These guys traveled those roadways everyday on patrol. They mentioned a number of times in the episode that the road to Baghdad airport was the most dangerous in the world. No new news there. The interesting point in the Frontline story was that the patrols shot first and asked questions later. Several times in the story these armored patrols fired at approaching vehicles ... what decision making tactics did they use?: If the troops flashed lights, honked horns, shot warning shots ... and the approaching vehicle kept coming ... BLAMMY ... the vehicle is history. What I failed to understand is what the car's driver was supposed to do ... from what I saw, the "warning" period took all of 3 or 4 seconds, and a car's driver would have no chance to make a decision about what to do before becoming machine gun bait.

    Another interesting point in the episode was when the Americans were fired upon from the street. Three armored vehicles returned the fire ... so many shots it was unbelievable. Then they noticed a taxi all beat to crap and shot up and a dying civilian in the backseat. The army guys started asking, "Who did this? How did this happen? This is terrible!" Well, duh ... all these g.i.'s started firing every which way at anything that moved, and they had to wonder who shot up the taxi?

    So, no, I don't think it was a conspiracy or a 'targeted killing'... but I do think it was scared, young, poorly trained, fire-before-you-get-shot-yourself American G.I.'s PLUS a collousal lack of communication that probably led to this event.
    also, if the intel agent knew about the checkpoint he should have driven slowly..and once he was warned with flashing lights or anything he should have known to stop...

    her story has so much bull in it you can take anything she has said seriously. most checkpoints have at least one 50 cal. even if only 100 shots had come from the 50 cal everyone in the car would have been dead or mortally wounded.. especially if the 300 other shots had come from m-16s.. they both are very accurate...and if you 400 shots hit the car, and only one died???? come on.. not very likely...

  4. #29
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    In an interview with the BBC's Newshour programme, freed Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena began by describing the conditions in which she had been held hostage for a month.

    The condition of life was not bad from the material point of view but I was in a position of risk and so you can imagine it was not easy, it was very difficult and very hard to spend the days as prisoner in Iraq.

    What did your captors tell you when you were hostage?

    That I needed to help them to ask [Silvio] Berlusconi to withdraw the troops. They saw all what happens in Italy, demonstrations against the occupation, demonstrations for my liberation. And so they [became] aware that I was really working against the occupation and people were supporting me and so they told me: "We have seen that you are very appreciated in Italy". And that helped me to be freed.

    You then became aware presumably that negotiations were going on about your possible release.

    I can't say it was deliberate because we can't say if there was a lack of information


    I could imagine that negotiations were going on but I can't tell you more because I was not aware of what was the object of the negotiations. And when I was freed it was the last of my problems which kind of negotiations were going on.

    You do not know whether money was paid for your freedom?

    No, I don't know.

    Tell us about the man [Italian security agent Nicola Calipari] who came to try and secure your release.

    I saw him for the first time when he came to [collect] me. He was a very special man. I immediately felt in contact with him and he gave me hope. But this was too short because he died after half an hour.

    Tell us about the car journey you shared with him.

    We were on our way to the airport when the tanks started to strike against us and he tried to cover me and he was shot. He died and, me, I was safe but he was dead.

    When did you become aware that your car was being fired at?

    We had no signal. We were just on the way to the airport. They started to shoot at us without any light or signal. There was no block, there was nothing. It was so immediate. I didn't know how I was alive after all that attack.

    Why do you think the Americans opened fire?

    We were not a hidden car. We were just a car on the road with lights and we were not running without any signal. So you have to ask the Americans because we don't know what happened.



    Nicola Calipari died protecting Ms Sgrena

    Did the Americans continue to fire when your car had come to a halt?

    Our car was destroyed. And then the driver got out and was shouting "we're Italian, we're Italian". So they came and they saw what happened. But I was badly injured so I can't explain exactly what happened after because I was waiting for 20 minutes on the road for a military car to bring me to the hospital.

    I don't know if they knew what they were doing or not but it's a big responsibility so they have to respond to what happened because it's impossible to shoot a car on a road to the airport without giving any signal, any stop or any check.

    Do you think it was deliberate?

    I can't say it was deliberate because we can't say if there was a lack of information. But also a lack of information in this case is [their] responsibility because you are in a war field and you have the responsibility to pass immediately any information.

    The information was given to the Italians to tell the Americans that we were on the road. Now, I can't say why they shot at us in this way but it's a very big responsibility and we ask for a response on what happened.

    So what did this security agent do when he heard the firing?

    When the driver said "they're attacking us", one of the [agents] tried to say we're Italians but it was impossible to get out of the car because the car was under this rain of fire.

    And the other one tried to protect me and he died. I was pushing down to avoid the bullets and after I don't know how long, I found that he was dead.


    He died in your arms?

    Yes.

    How do you feel about the man who saved your life?

    I am very, very sad and feel pain for him. I'm sorry not to be able to go to the funeral because I am in hospital.

    He was a brave man.
    BBC News

    Yet the Main Stream Media continues to bolster the "official story" of speeding cars, no communication, and checkpoints

  5. #30
    Raise My McFlagg CommanderMcBragg's Avatar
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    So, no, I don't think it was a conspiracy or a 'targeted killing'... but I do think it was scared, young, poorly trained, fire-before-you-get-shot-yourself American G.I.'s PLUS a collousal lack of communication that probably led to this event.
    And I'm damn proud of that scared, young soldier. I'd like to see how you'd react.

  6. #31
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    stfu!!! if a tank opened fire on them..there would be no sgrena...

  7. #32
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    what is worse is the payoff:

    "An Iraqi lawmaker, Youdaam Youssef Kanna, told Belgian state TV Saturday evening that he had "nonofficial" information a $1 million ransom was paid for Sgrena's release, Apcom reported from Brussels."
    http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news...63/detail.html

    so, now the terrorists have an extra 1 million dollars to wreak havoc...

  8. #33
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Italians Kept U.S. Military in the Dark

    Following Italian journalist Guiliana Sgrena’s account at her “attempted murder” by United States soldiers, we are learning more about the incident from more reputable sources. It now appears likely that Italian agents kept the information from the U.S. military that a cash for Sgrena trade was made.

    ROME – Italian agents likely withheld information from U.S. counterparts about a cash-for-freedom deal with gunmen holding an Italian hostage for fear that Americans might block the trade, Italian news reports said yesterday.

    The decision by operatives of Italy’s SISMI military intelligence service to keep the CIA in the dark about the deal for the release of reporter Giuliana Sgrena, might have “short-circuited” communications with U.S. forces controlling the road from Baghdad to the city’s airport, the newspaper La Stampa said.

    Indeed. Even as Sgrena herself notes, the United States does not believe in negotiating with terrorists much less paying a ransom which will likely embolden more terrorist groups to take hostages as well as provide them money to purchase weaponry that in turn kills Iraqis and Coalition soldiers.

    The more information that presents itself in this case the more it shows this was a tragic accident, not the deliberate killing as suggested by Sgrena. All journalists would do theirselves a favor to step back from her story and look at the facts, do a little thinking regarding any reasons why her story might be jeopardized and then write articles. It appears that is starting to be the case (via Captain’s Quarters).

    Sgrena’s latest article, en led ‘My Truth,’ has been translated and reproduced on CNN. It’s worth a read to note some huge discrepencies:

    The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles
    and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed.
    It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water
    in aghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had
    been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell.

    To Sgrena’s own admission the car carrying her to Baghdad Airport almost lost control to swerve around puddles on the road, but she has repeatedly said the car was not traveling at a high rate of speed. For a car to almost lose control moving out of the way of a puddle indicates the car was traveling much faster than what she has claimed.

  9. #34
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    And I'm damn proud of that scared, young soldier. I'd like to see how you'd react.
    Hummm...If placed in the same situation I would probably have reacted the same way, but the point is these soldiers should not have been in this situation in the first place.

  10. #35
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Hummm...If placed in the same situation I would probably have reacted the same way, but the point is these soldiers should not have been in this situation in the first place.
    now you are back tracking...

  11. #36
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    The decision by operatives of Italy’s SISMI military intelligence service to keep the CIA in the dark about the deal for the release of reporter Giuliana Sgrena, might have “short-circuited” communications with U.S. forces controlling the road from Baghdad to the city’s airport, the newspaper La Stampa said.
    Once again, this directly contradicts the Italians story that the U.S. knew that these hostage negotiations were taking place, and the Italians were taking action that evening to pay for the release of Sgrena. Sgrena's vehicle had already passed at least two 'official U.S. checkpoints' so the occupants must not have had any idea that they were placing themselves in any real danger.

  12. #37
    Raise My McFlagg CommanderMcBragg's Avatar
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    Hummm...If placed in the same situation I would probably have reacted the same way, but the point is these soldiers should not have been in this situation in the first place.
    But they ARE there and are doing the best job they can.

  13. #38
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    now you are back tracking...
    No, that was only a hypothetical. I am only interested in uncovering the official story, not the M.S.M. side of the story since we already know the Pentagon uses our media as it's own personal propaganda tool.

  14. #39
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Once again, this directly contradicts the Italians story that the U.S. knew that these hostage negotiations were taking place, and the Italians were taking action that evening to pay for the release of Sgrena. Sgrena's vehicle had already passed at least two 'official U.S. checkpoints' so the occupants must not have had any idea that they were placing themselves in any real danger.
    right now, the US's official story seems more plausible...

  15. #40
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    But they ARE there and are doing the best job they can.
    Yes, they are, but given the shortage of experienced combat troops the armed forces are experiencing, a viable argument can be made that perhaps these part-time soldiers have been put into positions that they have no been adaquetly trained for, same argument as was made about the Abu Gharib prison scandal.

  16. #41
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    right now, the US's official story seems more plausible...
    Then the Pentagon should let the MSM and foreign News services interview the soldiers involved in the incident. Let's not hide anything.

  17. #42
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Yes, they are, but given the shortage of experienced combat troops the armed forces are experiencing, a viable argument can be made that perhaps these part-time soldiers have been put into positions that they have no been adaquetly trained for, same argument as was made about the Abu Gharib prison scandal.
    95% of that AG stuff wasn't even torture... torture is what they do to our people... an american could only hope his captors only TOLD him they were going to electrocute him...

  18. #43
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Then the Pentagon should let the MSM and foreign News services interview the soldiers involved in the incident. Let's not hide anything.
    that is what they have spokespersons for... those guys are trying to help the country of iraq..no time for ing interviews..

  19. #44
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    95% of that AG stuff wasn't even torture... torture is what they do to our people... an american could only hope his captors only TOLD him they were going to electrocute him...
    Torture isn't for you, me or Alberto Gonzales to define, but for the International Court at the Hague.

  20. #45
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    that is what they have spokespersons for... those guys are trying to help the country of iraq..no time for ing interviews..
    I'm sure the U.S. military can spare these troops until this incident has been properly investigated. Remember, the Italians are looking at this as a murder investigation not a war crime.

  21. #46
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Torture isn't for you, me or Alberto Gonzales to define, but for the International Court at the Hague.
    the u.s. didn't sign on to international court..

  22. #47
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    the u.s. didn't sign on to international court..
    We are still bound by the Geneva Convention definition of prisoner abuse and torture.

    Here are some recovered pictures of Sgrena's car...





    In this photo released Tuesday March 8, 2005 by the Italian RAI TG1 national television, network military personnel are seen near a car said to be that In which Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was travelling with deceased secret service operative Nicola Calipari, during her release in Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites), last Friday March 4, 2005. Sgrena returned to Italy but Calipari was killed in what appears to be a friendly fire incident by U.S. troops. (AP Photo/TG1, Rai)

  23. #48
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    We are still bound by the Geneva Convention definition of prisoner abuse and torture.

    Here are some recovered pictures of Sgrena's car...





    In this photo released Tuesday March 8, 2005 by the Italian RAI TG1 national television, network military personnel are seen near a car said to be that In which Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena was travelling with deceased secret service operative Nicola Calipari, during her release in Baghdad, Iraq (news - web sites), last Friday March 4, 2005. Sgrena returned to Italy but Calipari was killed in what appears to be a friendly fire incident by U.S. troops. (AP Photo/TG1, Rai)
    where did you get those pictures??? also, i don't even see one bullet hole, much less 300-400....

  24. #49
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    Um.......either those are some very very small caliber bullets, or the US troops are great shots to be able to get 300 rounds through the open window of a moving car.

    I really expected a smoldering wreck of Swiss cheese. I could take that car to CarMax right off the back of that transport. Maybe the term "bullets" was a creative synonym for water droplets that hit the car after they drove through those puddles.

    Another point, even M16 rounds would most likely not get stuck in a car's seats. (5.56mm .233 FMJ)
    Last edited by Useruser666; 03-09-2005 at 10:43 AM.

  25. #50
    JEBO TE! Clandestino's Avatar
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    Um.......either those are some very very small caliber bullets, or the US troops are great shots to be able to get 300 rounds through the open window of a moving car.

    I really expected a smoldering wreck of Swiss cheese. I could take that car to CarMax right off the back of that transport. Maybe bullets was creative synonym for water droplets that hit the car after they drove through those puddles.

    Another point, even M16 rounds would most likely not get stuck in a car's seats. (5.56mm .233)
    yeah, not in the car seat..especially if the car was going 100mph which i've seen reported on some sites...

    but yeah, i was expecting a car that was barely standing up...

    in her bbc interview she said:
    Our car was destroyed. And then the driver got out and was shouting "we're Italian, we're Italian". So they came and they saw what happened. But I was badly injured so I can't explain exactly what happened after because I was waiting for 20 minutes on the road for a military car to bring me to the hospital.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324251.stm
    Last edited by Clandestino; 03-09-2005 at 11:37 AM.

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