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Actually I read some article in the ex news about 2 months ago and he basically said that he felt he was some kind of "trigger" for Armageddon, due to his program where he finances Jewish families to go back to Israel.
did you see benny hinn on dateline last night?
At least Hagee doesn't claim to be anything more than a spiritual healer - yet.
Actually I read some article in the ex news about 2 months ago and he basically said that he felt he was some kind of "trigger" for Armageddon, due to his program where he finances Jewish families to go back to Israel.
So John Hagee, God was just kiddin' around about that "gluttony" thing .... Right?
In truth, most of Hagee's followers don't meet the critieria for being fatalists fanatics like the old Heaven's Gate crowd. Stone Oak is one of the most effluent parts of San Antonio, most of Hagee's followers have family members with advanced degrees and very fat wallets - so they carry a tremendous amount of political weight. I would suspect that this is the case for a majority of the super-churches.
This article was to juicy to pass up... , the le alone is worth posting...
Channeling Dr. Strangelove or How America learned to stop worrying and love the Rapture
by arendt
....Among the questionable alternatives to religion embraced by
....contemporary society - among the various ersatz religions, that is -
....one must include the kind of fundamentalist teaching promulgated
....by certain sects and churches in Britain and the United States. Like
....all ersatz religions, these teachings eschew responsibility for
....everything a genuine religion entails and offer something else -
....something potentially dangerous - as a palliative...
....It has taken us a great many centuries, and cost a great deal of
....bloodshed, to learn a measure of tolerance. That we can feel shame
....at such aberrations as the Inquisition, or the witch trials of the Middle
....Ages, the Renaissance and the Counter-Reformation, attests to
....some genuine advance in learning, some genuine education
....on the level where education truly matters - in values and at udes.
....It bodes ill when such gains are threatened by a return to fundamentalist
....simplicities - by a return, in other words, to the use of religion as mere
....tribal myth.
....In the past, fundamentalist simplicity has often served as a refuge for
....oppressed minorities, or even for an occupied country...What is occurring
....today, however, is the embrace of fundamentalist simplicities...by some
....of the wealthiest, most comfortable, most powerful, and theoretically,
....best educated people in the world...Not since the excesses of seventeenth
....century Puritanism...has religious fanaticism and bigotry been allied
....in the West with wealth and power on so large a scale. Except, of course,
....for the Third Reich.
........"The Messianic Iden y"
........M. Baigent, R. Leigh, and H. Lincoln (1986)
The real fight in American politics today is not between left and right, not even between religion and secularism. The real fight is between sanity and insanity, between reality and delusion, between tolerance and bloodlust, between national survival and national suicide. If that sentence sounded like a Rod Serling voice-over for a Twilight Zone episode, it is because that is the kind of place America has become since Bush took over.
What else can the policies of the GOP over the last five years be called but insanity?
*It is insane to unilaterally restart the nuclear arms race in a "one superpower" world and threaten first use.
*It is insane to underfund police and do nothing about cargo containers and chemical plants in a terror war.
*It is insane to unilaterally junk the anti-missile treaty and rush to deploy a system that flunks even rigged tests.
*It is insane to run the National Guard and the Reserves through an endless, meat-grinder guerilla war.
*It is insane to spend more on arms than the rest of the world combined, and yet still be paralyzed with fear.
(You might recall that these military policies have been put in place by the neocon clique George Bush, Sr.
and Colin Powell derisively refer to as "the crazies".)
*It is insane to deliberately bankrupt the country with tax cuts for the rich in time of war.
*It is insane to ruin Social Security and add another trillion dollars to our childrens' debt load.
*It is insane to ship our country's industrial base to Asia with government subsidies and encouragement.
*It is insane to deny the world-wide scientific consensus that climate change is real and a serious threat.
*It is insane to drill for marginal amounts of oil in sacred places when conservation is derided.
And, finally, there is the classic definition of insanity - doing the same thing over again and expecting different results:
*It is insane to replace sex education with "abstinence only" programs and lies about condom ineffectiveness.
However, it is not that the inmates running the asylum of America today are totally bereft of logic, rather they are totally bereft of judgment. They are logical enough to use any excuse to do what they intend to do. They have judged that they have enough military, police, media, and financial power to stamp out democracy and any opposition anywhere in the world. They don't seem to notice America is hemorhaging money, jobs, and allies with every stomp of their boot. They are literally delusional - dangerously, violently insane.
----
At the root of these insanities is a pathological hatred of self that is projected outward as a hatred of the world and a literal death wish. (The Left isn't kidding when they talk about the "Neocon Death Cult".) Since the Emperor Constantine rammed his version of Christianity down his empire's throat, the Church of Punishment has dominated the Church of Love that Christ founded. The portrait of this world as something to be endured, as a place to be escaped from as soon as possible, fit very well with the needs of a failing Roman Empire. Indeed, the English historian Gibbons called Catholicism "the slave religion". This dismal perception of the world as a terrible place resonated with (some would say, caused) the nadir of Western Civilization, the Dark Ages. It only lost its grip after the Black Plague decimated Europe and the Church descended into the Avignon era of corrupt, dueling Popes.
It is one thing to see the world as a trial; but a person could still feel OK about himself. From where, then, does this self-hatred come? Unfortunately, it seems to be impossible to talk about fundamentalism without talking about sex. For a bunch of people who profess to despise it, there are one heck of a lot of sex scandals among fundamentalist clergy, not to mention the pederastic Catholic clergy who inaugurated this whole sick style of women-hating religiosity.
Only the willfully blind can miss the constantly recurring combination of misogyny and macho set in totally -social societies. Macho guys hate what they perceive as weakness, feminineness in their nature. So, they project that weakness onto women, and demonize them. The fundamentalist Jews have segregated and denigrated women for close to 4,000 years; the fundamentalist Moslems for almost 1,500 years. The Catholic clergy is strictly male, and the pederasty problem is off the scale. The Baptists scream that "women must be subservient"; and then we have Susan Smith and Andrea Yates, and a never-ending parade of abused and assaulted women who sometimes act out by killing their children.
Meanwhile the really "manly men" in America spend their time hanging out in locker rooms and bars, whacking each other on the butt as they watch other macho guys in tight, revealing costumes grapple sweatily. Isn't the save-the-fetus, abandon-the-child lifestyle exactly what you would expect from insecure guys who need to prove their masculinity by fathering children, but think that actually nurturing children is for sissies and female slaves?
The basic stance of the fundamentalist male is that this world is nothing more than a trial by a cruel God, that any source of pleasure in the world must be vigilantly watched, lest it prove to be a "snare of the devil". As H.L. Mencken observed, "Fundamentalism is the haunting fear that somewhere, someone may be happy." In this divinely-ordained pleasure-trap, the biggest obstacle to mens' salvation is women. Women are the "agents of Satan", the temptresses, Eve, the source of all uncleanness. And sex is taboo, except for procreation, and always "dirty". The sexes therefore must be segregated; and women must be placed under virtual house arrest to protect men from them (and to safeguard the sacred blood lines of these holy men).
Could there be any set of rules more likely to produce exactly what these repressed hysterics fear? Women are dangerous; therefore I will surround myself with men or young boys; that way I will be safe. Wrong! Savage self-repression, of any kind, eventually leads to self-loathing. For example, there are many doctors forced into that profession by controlling parents. It is not a rare occurrence to find such unhappy doctors either abusing alcohol or drugs, or eventually committing suicide. They hate themselves because their lives are a lie. Self-repression of sex leads to sexual perversion, often sadism or masochism, which is always about control instead of pleasure.
It is a movie cliche that the more a guy baits and bashes gays of either sex, the more he is suppressing sexual tendencies. The Gannon/Guckert scandal, which the corporate media is trying to marginalize, is typical of the double standard of the fundamentalist leadership. Crucify your opponent by tying him to the legitimate rights of open gays, but when your side is caught red-handed (is that the proper appendage?) with a gay pros ute, scream persecution. The total aversion of the corporate media to cover a juicy sex and spy scandal is the "dog that did not bark". It puts the lie to the ten year old cover story that Bill Clinton was merely the victim of a scandal-seeking press.
----
Lest anyone think I am bashing all Christianity or all religion, it is relevant to note that "modern" fundamentalisms are, by and large, creations of the 19th century - rural reactions to the onslaught of industrialization. Hassidic Jewish "traditional" dress is 19th century Russian peasant clothing. Anglo-Saxon fundamentalism was started by a crackpot named Darby in Britain in the 1840s.
The tenets of Darbyism, and most modern Christian fundamentalisms, amount to cutting Christ out of the Bible, leaving only the misogynistic, macho texts from the Old Testament and Paul as moral guidance. Their bible, the Scofield reference bible makes the Catholic catechism look like an exercise in moral relativism, prescribing exactly how you must comprehend every sentence in the Bible. (Apparently, Mr. Scofield is more divinely inspired than the Church fathers who wrote the original. How did we miss this prophet among us?) Finally, the keystone of their "morality" is the drooling anticipation of a murderous return of an old-testament god who will torture the world for a thousand years. If this is sadism can be called religion, I would be proud to be called an atheist. More than a few genuine Christians have called the "we have to screw up the world to make god bring the Rapture" mindset to be sorcery, conjuring, necromancy, and blasphemy.
You can't reason with fundamentalists the same way you can't reason with a heavily armed psycho who thinks you are a rabid dog that needs to be put out of its misery. Those who have drunk the militant religious kool-aid are beyond the reach of rational argument. Only the defeat of their cause can break their hypnosis. But, the fight to free ourselves from this insanity depends on reaching the de-politicized, yet non-fanatical, segment of America. The fanatics are already politicized and mustered against reason, against the Enlightenment.
----
The best way I can think to reach the media-addled, de-politiciized demographic is to draw an analogy to a movie - something they might have seen. It is probably no coincidence that the movie itself is a parable about hubris. The movie is the 1950s sci-fi classic "Forbidden Planet", whose plot line was lifted from Shakespeare's "Tempest". The movie, made soon after the H-bomb was exploded, when people were terrified of the planet committing technical suicide, is a cautionary tale.
The planet in the le contains a mysterious, vanished civilization - the Krell. The
Krell left behind a vast complex of nuclear reactors that have functioned flawlessly
for a million years. But, when humans came to the planet, all but one of them were
killed by mysterious forces in a short time. To cut to the chase, (spoiler coming!) the
reactors power machines that materialize thoughts. The Krell thought themselves to
be rational; but their sub-conscious hatreds ("monsters of the id" in the memorable,
if dated, phrase from the dialogue) caused their thoughts to wipe out their race and
the humans to wipe out each other as well. In the end, the humans blow up the reactors and flee.
----
Today, the American nation is looking like that planet. Technology created by geniuses
is in the hands of moral morons, led by criminal sociopaths. They are using that technology to enslave their fellow citizens and kill anyone they can't enslave. The most animal of emotions - tribalisms, petty grudges, and grade-school bullying are amplified by a totally corrupt media to bring all rational discussion to a halt. Genuine, serious issues of the very survival of civilization are ignored or mocked, while what little investigative reporting is available goes into savaging the political opposition with bogus scandals.
Technology that could educate is used to deceive, to dumb down, to avoid facing real issues. Weapons designed in fear for defense are used for conquest. Hard-won knowledge of the fragility of our environment is laughed at. And, if anyone is blamed for this power run amuck , it is the scientists themselves - purportedly for letting the genie out of the bottle. But it was society that demanded to free the genie, and corporations who made a bundle from the release of the genie. People wanted what science had to offer; and they still do.
Even in the political arena, sane people want rationality. Rational politicians in a rational society faced the Cuban Missile Crisis, and they stared down the suicidal ideologues on both sides. Brinksmanship was played by all, and we were lucky to have survived. Militant Communism was defeated by 1990, joining Fascism on the junkheap of history - or so we all thought. We actually had a decade of relative peace and prosperity.
But the lunatic fringe could not tolerate the elimination of "the enemy", the external glue that held together their world of hatred and projection. So, while they vainly tried to inflate minor-leaguers like Noriega and Saddam into genuine threats like Stalin or Mao, they turned most of their energies against their own countrymen - the despised Liberal. The hatred that had been focussed outward now turned inward. It became a loathing of American democracy.
The fundamentalist horde is now busy committing national suicide. They have already shredded our Cons ution, bankrupted our government, ruined our military, begun to re-despoil our environment, and made us a pariah nation. As a liberal, I do not say this lightly: I would rather have Richard Nixon, with all his neuroses, leading our country than the gang of thugs in charge today. At least Nixon loved his country and cared about his place in history. All the Busheviks love is money, power, and their sick, suicidal unconsciousness.
In closing, let us remember another metaphor from the nuclear-nightmare fifties. America is channeling Dr. Strangelove - one hand strangling itself, while babbling fantasies of winning nuclear wars. We have become what we most feared: a society mesmerized by nuclear destruction.
That guy is even wackier than Hagee, and Hagee is off the charts.
Of course, few can hold a candle to our own Dan...
While I am not a huge fan of John Hagee, I believe he is sincere and his message is true. I also am a believer in the reality of the Rapture. I don't have time to argue with everyone about this - but I just hope you all will remember this thread when the Rapture occurs. Also, there is a great website devoted to this subject - it's raptureready.com. They even post e-mails from non-believers.
Sadly, it will take the occurance of the Rapture to make believers out of many - and then they will be in for a very rough ride.
Wouldn't you feel silly if God forgave me anyway.
apples and oranges. no one said anything about the rapture, the discussion was whether people like Hagee are truly living by a christian doctrineI also am a believer in the reality of the Rapture
And I bet he made up his 10% donation and then some.
Suckers.
Haha, that's beautiful.
Wow, is it going to be just like the Left Behind books?
I fear not the Rapture, for the Lord is with me.
Probably - I believe those books are pretty accurate. Tim LaHaye is known as a foremost expert on End Times Prophecy. Here's an idea for you - why don't you buy the complete set of Left Behind Books and you can see how accurate they are when you're going through the tribulation!Wow, is it going to be just like the Left Behind books?
Wouldn't the pages burn?
Man, I hate to get into religous dicussions, but I feel I have to say at least this.
Any god that feels their love is conditional, can put me in , give me eternal damnation, or leave me behind. But they can also go screw themselves.
You see that icon to the left of this post? Yeah, that goes out to any god who puts conditions on love. Especially when those conditions aren't delivered by certified mail, but by word of mouth. Ever play the game telephone? Yeah, maybe thats why nobody can make up their damn mind as to what the bible means.
What a great way to gain followers, through fear of damnation. I love it.
Santa Clause is coming, to town!
I feel that life is worth those conditions.
You know, there are some doubts on the credibility of John's (the third John of the New Testament who penned the book of Revelations) statements. I personally have a hard time taking most of the Bible seriously - while it was "inspired by God", it was written down by man. We didn't get a direct fax from God in English that hardbound itself and found its way into millions of hotel rooms. It just didn't happen that way. Man wrote it, man edited it, man translated it. Not all prophets are reliable just because they wrote something down thousands of years ago. I believe that anyone who takes the Bible at face value without questioning it is kidding themselves. It's more important for a Christian to have their own relationship with God based on personal communication - the Bible is there for inspiration and guidance, but it's not an absolute truth.
And who are you to assume I will be stuck down here if the "Rapture" happens? That's what the world needs less of - judgmental Christians. It's not your place to judge, and you should know that.
Read all the reply's and you'll notice the only one's judging are the non-christians.
New testament was written by the disciples of Jesus. Pretty good source of god's word.
I don't think any non-Christians here have said that someone's going to , or not going to heaven for that matter.
Written by the disciples of Jesus, 1000's of years ago, and has gone through countless translations by many people with different backgrounds/agendas.
Pretty good source of God's word indeed.
Maybe not, but they have been very judgemental nonetheless. Just an observation.
The countless translations argument is actually a case for the new testaments authenticity. There are over 24,000 ancient manuscripts written in thousands of different languages, and they all say virtually the same thing. Only differences are a few variations in spelling.
Compare that to the Illiad with 650 ancient manuscripts that virtually say the same thing, and no one ever questions it's authenticity.
I think one of the reasons no one questions the Illiad is that no one has gone to war, and persecuted millions of people over homers book (i.e. it's not important enough).
That's because no one takes the Iliad as truth - it's a reknowned work of mythology. If you want to say that the Bible is mythology, then I won't argue the translations, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you're out to prove. Maybe a better analogy on your part would help.
And as for being judgmental - that's just something that everyone does - only the non-Christians aren't throwing in your face. Everyone is judgmental to a degree, but for something as eternal as your fate, that's not to be taken as lightly as say, a bad haircut. There's a difference is judging someone's opinion, which is stupid anyways, and judging someone as a whole person - like assuming the outcome of their afterlife.
I'm not debating your system of beliefs to be wrong - I'm just saying that they are your beliefs and not mine. You're the one accusing me of being in the wrong, while I'm just pointing out some of the alternative possibilities of the derivation of Biblical text. You're telling me I'm going to rot in basically - who's being judgmental?
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