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  1. #26
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Looked pretty orderly to me. The guy overextended and got slapped by reality... It's done and it was a good thing.
    I think a lot of people feel that way. Including maybe Obama.

    Surely you understand why he can't come right out and say that, right?

    His country doesn't want a Chavez style dictator.
    If this were really the case, there was nothing to fear from a referendum. The people would've voted it down.

  2. #27
    These aren't the droids you're looking for jman3000's Avatar
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    I think the real issue at hand here is if we allow for the coup to stay it's a twofer:

    1) We allow a military coup to take place to our neighbors around the corner. Military coups are the worst types of regime change because they're highly unstable and you have people running a country who know nothing of running a country and everything of strict order and killing people.

    2) We risk Chavez sending in troops and further destabilizing the region. The fact that the Panama Canal is so close should make this an even less desirable situation. I'm not sure if we want to call his bluff.

    The problem with returning him to power is that you basically have a lame duck and the hatred seems to be running pretty high for him. Unless he sits in a bunker the rest of his term he might get assassinated by his own people.

    It's a sticky situation for sure.

  3. #28
    These aren't the droids you're looking for jman3000's Avatar
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    I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the neo cons would want fighting so close (not necessarily with us involved). All the blood shed and violence in the middle east is too far for them. They need death and destruction a bit closer.

  4. #29
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    neo cons?


  5. #30
    These aren't the droids you're looking for jman3000's Avatar
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    Interchangeable with war mongers I suppose. Would you disagree?

    Is that the only comment you wish to comment on?

    The fact is if we had it your way, the would really hit the fan.

  6. #31
    Mr. John Wayne CosmicCowboy's Avatar
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    you.

    I don't want to invade them.

    At the same time, it doesn't hurt to stand up for the checks and balances democratic principles we are supposed to stand for.

    It's really not that hard. Unfortunately our President doesn't really believe in checks and balances. He is currently setting up "czars" for virtually every segment of our government and this pussified congress won't even question him on it. There was a reason our founders set up a legislative/executive/judicial balance.

    If believing this makes me a "neo-con" in your ed up world I'm proud to carry that label.

  7. #32
    These aren't the droids you're looking for jman3000's Avatar
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    you.

    I don't want to invade them.

    At the same time, it doesn't hurt to stand up for the checks and balances democratic principles we are supposed to stand for.

    It's really not that hard. Unfortunately our President doesn't really believe in checks and balances. He is currently setting up "czars" for virtually every segment of our government and this pussified congress won't even question him on it. There was a reason our founders set up a legislative/executive/judicial balance.

    If believing this makes me a "neo-con" in your ed up world I'm proud to carry that label.
    (not necessarily with us involved)
    I guess you don't know how to read.

    Do you not see how a military coup taking place holds the possibility for an authoritarian military regime to take over? Do you not remember Chile? Not to mention the handful of African countries this has happened to.

    But hey whatever. Obama is saying something so obviously your opinion is going to be the opposite without looking at any of the nuances of the situation.

  8. #33
    Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Viva Las Espuelas's Avatar
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    i guess we were allllllll neocons on 91201


    who knews?

  9. #34
    These aren't the droids you're looking for jman3000's Avatar
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    but whatever... i'm drunk and need to finish a paper.

  10. #35
    These aren't the droids you're looking for jman3000's Avatar
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    i guess we were allllllll neocons on 91201


    who knews?
    hahaha awww sticking up for your new friend. how sweet.

    what a bunch of s.

  11. #36
    Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Viva Las Espuelas's Avatar
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    hahaha awww sticking up for your new friend. how sweet.

    what a bunch of s.
    so is this what they're teaching you these days?

    you see someone that wants to defend something and you instantly label them a "neocon"? were you a neocon on 91201?

  12. #37
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    I guess you don't know how to read.

    Do you not see how a military coup taking place holds the possibility for an authoritarian military regime to take over? Do you not remember Chile? Not to mention the handful of African countries this has happened to.

    But hey whatever. Obama is saying something so obviously your opinion is going to be the opposite without looking at any of the nuances of the situation.

    There's no nuance to this, The democrats and the UN only invade and occupy easy as cake countries everyone doesn't give a crap about, Bosnia-kosovo. The nuance is not in the morals, don't fool yourself. We'll bomb the out of despots if its white on brown just to say, look that's the bad guy.

    There's no nuance, brainwattage spent on this type of bull .

  13. #38
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    hahaha awww sticking up for your new friend. how sweet.

    what a bunch of s.
    whoah, that's exactly the same thing i say whenever i see a jman and winehole circle jerk, baseline bum and chump partnership. Are you this dense?

  14. #39
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    Honduras Defends Its Democracy Fidel Castro and Hillary Clinton object.
    By MARY ANASTASIA O'GRADY

    Hugo Chávez's coalition-building efforts suffered a setback yesterday when the Honduran military sent its president packing for abusing the nation's cons ution.

    It seems that President Mel Zelaya miscalculated when he tried to emulate the success of his good friend Hugo in reshaping the Honduran Cons ution to his liking.

    But Honduras is not out of the Venezuelan woods yet. Yesterday the Central American country was being pressured to restore the authoritarian Mr. Zelaya by the likes of Fidel Castro, Daniel Ortega, Hillary Clinton and, of course, Hugo himself. The Organization of American States, having ignored Mr. Zelaya's abuses, also wants him back in power. It will be a miracle if Honduran patriots can hold their ground.

    That Mr. Zelaya acted as if he were above the law, there is no doubt. While Honduran law allows for a cons utional rewrite, the power to open that door does not lie with the president. A cons uent assembly can only be called through a national referendum approved by its Congress.

    But Mr. Zelaya declared the vote on his own and had Mr. Chávez ship him the necessary ballots from Venezuela. The Supreme Court ruled his referendum uncons utional, and it instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would do.

    The top military commander, Gen. Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, told the president that he would have to comply. Mr. Zelaya promptly fired him. The Supreme Court ordered him reinstated. Mr. Zelaya refused.

    Calculating that some critical mass of Hondurans would take his side, the president decided he would run the referendum himself. So on Thursday he led a mob that broke into the military installation where the ballots from Venezuela were being stored and then had his supporters distribute them in defiance of the Supreme Court's order.

    The attorney general had already made clear that the referendum was illegal, and he further announced that he would prosecute anyone involved in carrying it out. Yesterday, Mr. Zelaya was arrested by the military and is now in exile in Costa Rica.

    It remains to be seen what Mr. Zelaya's next move will be. It's not surprising that chavistas throughout the region are claiming that he was victim of a military coup. They want to hide the fact that the military was acting on a court order to defend the rule of law and the cons ution, and that the Congress asserted itself for that purpose, too.

    Mrs. Clinton has piled on as well. Yesterday she accused Honduras of violating "the precepts of the Interamerican Democratic Charter" and said it "should be condemned by all." Fidel Castro did just that. Mr. Chávez pledged to overthrow the new government.

    Honduras is fighting back by strictly following the cons ution. The Honduran Congress met in emergency session yesterday and designated its president as the interim executive as stipulated in Honduran law. It also said that presidential elections set for November will go forward. The Supreme Court later said that the military acted on its orders. It also said that when Mr. Zelaya realized that he was going to be prosecuted for his illegal behavior, he agreed to an offer to resign in exchange for safe passage out of the country. Mr. Zelaya denies it.

    Many Hondurans are going to be celebrating Mr. Zelaya's foreign excursion. Street protests against his heavy-handed tactics had already begun last week. On Friday a large number of military reservists took their turn. "We won't go backwards," one sign said. "We want to live in peace, freedom and development."

    Besides opposition from the Congress, the Supreme Court, the electoral tribunal and the attorney general, the president had also become persona non grata with the Catholic Church and numerous evangelical church leaders. On Thursday evening his own party in Congress sponsored a resolution to investigate whether he is mentally unfit to remain in office.

    For Hondurans who still remember military dictatorship, Mr. Zelaya also has another strike against him: He keeps rotten company. Earlier this month he hosted an OAS general assembly and led the effort, along side OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza, to bring Cuba back into the supposedly democratic organization.

    The OAS response is no surprise. Former Argentine Ambassador to the U.N. Emilio Cárdenas told me on Saturday that he was concerned that "the OAS under Insulza has not taken seriously the so-called 'democratic charter.' It seems to believe that only military 'coups' can challenge democracy. The truth is that democracy can be challenged from within, as the experiences of Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and now Honduras, prove." A less-kind interpretation of Mr. Insulza's judgment is that he doesn't mind the Chávez-style coup.

    The struggle against chavismo has never been about left-right politics. It is about defending the independence of ins utions that keep presidents from becoming dictators. This crisis clearly delineates the problem. In failing to come to the aid of checks and balances, Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Insulza expose their true colors.

  15. #40
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    It's the first military coup in Central America since the end of the Cold War, and given our history in the region, a lot of people will assume we're behind it no matter what we say.

    It's like the rising in Iran. Supporting the "good guys" comes at a price. In Iran, the "good guys" themselves would bear the cost of our support. And however supporting the coup in Honduras might make us feel better, it could hurt us strategically throughout the Americas.
    Last edited by Winehole23; 06-30-2009 at 02:16 AM.

  16. #41
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Historical context counts, y'all. Not everything is as simple as picking good guys and bad guys for the President.

    For *you and me*, it's another matter entirely.

  17. #42
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    The one thing I would criticize Obama for in this case is denouncing Zelaya's ouster as illegal. It contradicts his erstwhile caution, and it could be construed as meddling. I fail to see how it is consistent with his pose as a respecter of Honduras' sovereignty.

    IMO it is also likely that this coup is actually legal.

  18. #43
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-mar...uras-president

    The Obama administration worked in recent days to prevent President Manuel Zelaya's ouster, said a senior U.S. official. The State Department, in particular, communicated to Honduran officials on the ground that President Barack Obama wouldn't support any nondemocratic transfer of power in the Central American country.
    But you all said Obama wasn't meddling...

  19. #44
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Copycat. I just suggested as much.

    At first, Obama was cautious and restrained; now he is being more *meddlesome*. The situation unfolds gradually, not all at once. As Obama's positions change, so will opinions about it.
    Last edited by Winehole23; 06-30-2009 at 09:00 AM.

  20. #45
    Believe.
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    Just leave the whole situation be. Isn't that what everyone wants after Iraq? To not get involved in foreign screwiness? Then why the is this arguement happening? There is no good military solution, and the political results are ok if the former Honduran President stays gone, so until Chavez invades, then we do nothing, and once Chavez does, we just let the UN ask us for help and then go in and force Venezuela back to there borders. It would piss Chavez off, but who really gives a ?

  21. #46
    These aren't the droids you're looking for jman3000's Avatar
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    hmmm... not as bad as I remembered. I remember telling somebody to go themselves... maybe that was in another thread.

    My apologies for the " s" comment. I usually try to stay away from ad hominem, unless it's in jest or has some further meaning.

  22. #47
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    IMO it is also likely that this coup is actually legal.
    I agree. I wouldn't even call it a coup. They prevented one.

  23. #48
    They hate us - but they want to be us!
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    There was no coup. The military removed the guy who wouldn't give up the Presidency and then the Congress appointed a new President until everything can be sorted out. The military is not in control and this was all done according to their cons ution.

    News also came out today that the ousted President was allowing massive amounts of drugs to be flown into his country and then into the United States. He was a leftist, thug wanna-be - and that's why the UN and Chavez and Castro are upset that he's gone.

  24. #49
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    So Obama berates and all but dictates to Israel it's future, but turns a blind eye to a stolen election in Iran, and ignores the murders of who knows how many pro democracy protesters there.A situation that's reminicent of the tinamen square massacre is swept under the rug by obama and the state run media.
    He ass kisses Chavez,ortega, and Castro giving legitamacy to the propaganda of evil white yankee imperiaist is stealing Latin America's future not home grown neanderthal brown thug, thus allowing the the rape of the workers of latin america to continue.
    And now he speaks out...and what does he speak out for....The defense of a Chavez backed thug who s on the cons ution and makes a transparent power grab.
    The idea that Obama was sitting in the back pews of Rev. Wrights "church" doing crossword puzzels for 20 years, and wasn't aware of what was going on is now completely laughable.
    It appears either Rev.Wright is writing Obama's forgien policy, or perhaps Obama was writing the good Revrends sermons for him.

  25. #50
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    There was no coup. The military removed the guy who wouldn't give up the Presidency and then the Congress appointed a new President until everything can be sorted out.
    This looks like the template for...a banana republic style coup. The Supreme Court issuing orders to the military to remove the President? Congress appointing a new President? How does that serve checks and balances?

    Not calling it a coup seems a little screwy on its face.

    The military is not in control and this was all done according to their cons ution.
    You might be right about this. I'm even slightly inclined to believe it. But I can't prove it. Can you?

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