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Please refer to The Gilded Age. The Robber Barons would have whacked your ass in a heartbeat if you got in their way.
Thanks for that.
Nike is a big, evil company that takes advantage of people in deplorable situations in developing countries. I know that. I won't buy even my son's football cleats from them.
Got it.
It doesn't change the fact that I do not fear Nike more than I fear my government; I can still choose to NOT do business with Nike.
I can also send my own money to those countries to help those people out that Nike and other corporations are taking advantage of (unless my, or their governments, get in the way and don't let me).
Please refer to The Gilded Age. The Robber Barons would have whacked your ass in a heartbeat if you got in their way.
Oh, and now that I live in Pa; my wife is in a Union; a Professor's Union.
You should hear those blowhard academics, many who make near or over 6 figures ramble on about the Proletariat (before they get in their Prius and drive home)
She hates the Union, and it causes her FAR more grief than her employer - does very little for her, and she can't gripe directly to her boss about issues because everything has to be done within the CBA. Absolutely ridiculous situation - and a horrible model of running anything. Unions suck.
Funny story; the employees OF the union unionized last year!
And if they weren't protected politically, they would have been thrown in jail for murder.
I never said I want Corporations above the law; I want laws to protect ALL citizens; in fact, if our GOVERNMENT hadn't made corps = an independent individual; we wouldn't have many of the problems we have now with them.
Unions have absolutely zero to do with anything in this thread.
The word "union" was in that Nike stuff that RJV posted about a billion times; just an aside; sorry for the hijack.
When corps carry guns and have armies, can confiscate your property and throw you in jail for not buying their products, can tax you and take those taxes straight from your paycheck, can deny property rights, decide if you can pray...or not pray in public places, among the myriads of other powers the govt has over us...
If Corporations get this power, I will fear them as much as I fear govts now.
Until then...this is about as obvious as it can get. The fact it's even a question...
My bad - I admit I didn't bother to read all of those cases as I figured I already knew the gist of what was in them.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that while most of us live in the US, the US governments are not the only ones in the world. Consider that as well.
do you enjoy your military? your police force? your highways? your infrastucture? your hospitals and emergency services?
to use your own logic, if you don't like paying taxes for them, don't use those services.
i have stated nike has improved but i can easily get more current transgressions for you as i could for a myriad of corporations in every thing from clothing to agriculture to drugs to oil and energy and so on, and in not all cases will i see a market of compe ion readily available. also, those who are abused by these corporations have no such freedom to make such choices of being exploited. it is the governments who pave the road for such transgressions.
i absolutely agree with this point.
I do consider it; and it is a difficult situation.
The reason the corps go into developing countries is to exploit the workers; but then, in those countries; the BEST thing going in many cases is the EXPLOITATION - as screwed up logic as that is.
We can agree on Child Labor laws; OSHA type regs, etc....believe me there is much common ground; but I will never agree that ANY corporation has more power than the country it is doing business in IN THAT COUNTRY. In terms of absolute size and control over things on the planet Yes; but each instance in each country; no contest.
Look at Venezuela. Powerful, Internation corps have gotten kicked out of there, and their assets seized. Who had more power?
He didn't imply that.
He said he didn't like his tax burden; meaning there are probably plenty of things he would rather the government not do; and he would be willing to do without them doing. I'm betting Roads and Police aren't on that list (they also are a small microfraction of the $$$$ the govt. spends. Most Hospitals are already private.
true, but i was also getting more toward the concept of the social contract which we would all be obligated to, whether it be to the government or corporate america. the larger the community, the lesser freedoms we can expect to have, or the more we will have to be willing to concede in exchange for certain protections or services. (and then, of course, americans complicate matters immensely by confusing needs with wants).
In practice this may be true, but it does not HAVE to be, IMO.
Good discussion; but got to go.
Baseball practice.
(addidas shoes, Wilson glove, but lookie there, Nike bat)
touche.
and you may see more of that in latin america. but do not think for a second that the US has not taken note. there is a reason we have operatives stirring things up along the bolivian/columbian borders. once democratically elected governments in latin america such as that of jacob arbenz in guatemala and salvador allende in chile. both nationalized corporate interests of the united fruit company and ITT respectively and both fell victim to CIA backed military coups as a result. and then both nations went on to witness dramatic human rights abuses and massive death tolls as a result.
Old news, typical reorganization to stay afloat because of financial needs. As for the overseas violations, kind of hard to make a culture change to our values.
Heard it all before. None of that news gets unreported here. Nike is HQ's in Beaverton, just west of Portland, OR. I even drive past it on occasion.
Maybe if the unions didn't operate like thugs themselves, Nike would retain US factories. I'm pretty sure if we had a consumption tax rather than a production tax, and less powerful unions, US factories would stay in business.
Last edited by Wild Cobra; 09-01-2009 at 05:17 PM.
When it comes to police I prefer the gov. When it comes to business I prefer corps
Well, I'll bet that rjv likes overly powerful unions, and supports the Employee Free Choice Act of 2009. It's not a free choice act, but a means of getting unions organized without a secret majority vote.
This finding of a board is not a secret ballot. People worry about job security and without a secret vote, many people will say yes, where in private they would say no. It's understandable to be afraid of retaliation.‘‘(6) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, whenever a pe ion shall have been filed by an employee or group of employees or any individual or labor organization acting in their behalf alleging that a majority of employees in a unit appropriate for the purposes of collective bargaining wish to be represented by an individual or labor organization for such purposes, the Board shall investigate the pe ion. If the Board finds that a majority of the employees in a unit appropriate for bargaining has signed valid authorizations designating the individual or labor organization specified in the pe ion as their bargaining representative and that no other individual or labor organization is currently certified or recognized as the exclusive representative of any of the employees in the unit, the Board shall not direct an election but shall certify the individual or labor organization as the representative described in subsection (a).
Profound.
I was just looking for you to narrow it down because governments and corporations don't really share a whole lot of common ground in terms of their goals and objectives. Your question struck me like you were asking whether it's better to have a running back or a point guard, but not specifying what sport you were playing. But you did a good job of clarifying what you were looking for here.
I'll answer this way. Corporations do a far superior job of making decisions to the benefit of their "cons uents" than governments do, so in that sense action by a corporation is preferable to action by governments.
not sure what your point of rebuttal is. i was stating that latin america is moving more toward nationalizing their resources and that this is not something the US, historically, has been comfortable with, especially corporations who stand to profit from foreign investment.
Not a rebuttal, just an observation; corps using the U.S. govt. to their advantage (allegedly).
Interesting thread. My answer is as vague as the question: motive for the action is the key, IMHO.
I still have 2 more weeks here in Argentina, where socialism is becoming rampant to the extreme (nearing Chavez levels). Certainly expected after the '90s, when the country was sold to the free market goodness by the IMF, that only ended up in monopolies for some wealthy economic groups that ended up siphoning both the capital and the country's resources.
It's no surprise that you have mostly all socialist governments in this area at this point in time.
Then again, government corruption and waste will swing the pendulum again the other way around to Corps eventually, and so the cycle will repeat itself.
Where you going after the 2 weeks Nono?
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