Simple,
Tony
Manu
Jefferson
Duncan
Mcdyess
Play a man oriented (kobe) ZONE defense.
I'll take Odom and Artest launching threes all day.
With a healthy Bynum and Pau, a zone defense won't work if Parker is guarding Kobe. Kobe would be posting up Tony inside and either Tim or Dice would have to help. Both Pau and Bynum are considerably bigger than both Tim and Dice, Spurs helping on Kobe would only make their dunks more thunderous.
We need to bring back shawn bradley.. 5 MORE CHAMPIONSHIPS IN SA
Full court press and a few traps and the Lakers bring in a point guard.
I think we simply can not match up if Lakers put that line up. But, if they do so, Spurs' second unit will kill Laker's one.
So Hill(Kobe) Finley (Ron) Jefferson (Odom) Tim (Bynum) Dyess(Paul), with the aim to lose as little as possible. And a Tony+Manu second unit need to win as much as possible.
I think you do have a valid point. Without Lamar, the Lakers bench would get killed by the Spurs bench. Lamar Odom shot a staggering 50% from 3 point range during the Playoffs and was a huge spark off the bench. Lakers bench really sucks without him.
That pretty much makes the Big lineup useless for most of the game.
I think the only time Philip can bring out this Big lineup is in the 4th quarter with 8 minutes left and the bench is done playing.
ps. Just wondering...you guys think Jefferson (a small forward) can guard Lamar Odom who's almost as big as Tim Duncan?
Last edited by Allanon; 10-03-2009 at 10:33 PM.
Lamar Odom doesn't have his own offensive game, Laker fans should obviously know that..he's a good finisher, but he can't create..he doesn't have the quickness to play SF anymore..even Laker fans were saying this all Summer when Portland was involved in rumors, but obviously they'll use it in a positive argument for their own team..
I wouldn't even mind putting Tony on him with this "big" lineup, since his only advantage would be taking him inside off the deep catch, which would result in Bynum and Gasol leaving the paint..Duncan can sag off Bynum and help deep all game, let him punish us from there..
Odom is irrelevant offensively unless he's finishing..he only concerns me with his rebounding and defense..he can have all the touches he wants offensively..
You mean a box-and-1?
I agree. You never take out arguably your best scorer/2nd best player just to match-up with a team. I'd still play the Spurs five best players, only I'd mix in Hill more, sic him on Bryant and have him press him full court, harassing his every dribble, a la Hunter. Make him work to advance the ball past the time line and eat away precious seconds in order to give the Lakers less time to get a quality look once in the attack zone.
Lamar's problem has always been a lack of aggression. When he plays aggressively, he does have a very good offensive game.
If you watched him in the Playoffs, anytime the Jazz, Nuggets and Magic left him open, he made them pay (50% 3 pt shooting, 52%+ shooting on 2 point shots). The only bad series he had was against Luis Scola in the 2nd round. Overall, he was easily the 3rd best player on the Lakers on offense during the Playoffs.
Let's be honest. This lineup may sound imposing, but it'll more than likely rarely be used. Why, you ask? Because it lacks ball handling/facilitating/perimeter shooting, would likely lead to an excessive amount of turnovers and despite the considerable length that this lineup would posses, would get burned off the dribble by quick PG's even more than they already do. Essentially what this is is an admission that they're weak at PG and as such are attempting to concoct any type of lineup (within' some semblance of reason) that they can in order to avoid having the extremely mediocre threesome of Fisher-Farmar-Brown on the floor for long stretches.
This is exactly why this lineup by Phil is so great. The Lakers PG position sucks as it is and would get burned by TP regardless. So why not turn that into an advantage the other way around?
If the Spurs play their 5 best players
Tony
Manu
Jefferson
Duncan
Mcdyess
Their speed advantage is only at the PG position...same as it would be if Fisher had to guard TP. No loss here.
But all of a sudden, Duncan has to guard Bynum who's alot bigger, Dice has to guard Pau who's bigger, Jefferson has to guard Lamar Odom who's alot bigger. Manu has to guard Artest who's friggin' huge and Kobe gets his revenge on Tony at the offensive end.
As for ball-handling, Kobe, Lamar and Pau are probably the 3 best ball-handlers and passers on the Lakers. Lamar last year was already the primary ball-handler when he was on the court as he typically plays point-forward.
With the Triangle, there's no need for a traditional PG, if you look at all of Phil's Chicago and LA teams, there was never an elite PG, he never needed one.
Last edited by Allanon; 10-03-2009 at 11:23 PM.
But Fisher isn't the only PG who plays. Farmar and Brown are quicker than Bryant, Artest and Odom laterally and in this lineup one of them would have to guard Parker.
Ginobili may well guard Artest anyway, if the Spurs insist on having Jefferson be the primary Bryant defender. Theoretically, Ginobili should get torched in the post, but I don't mind this match-up, here's why: it means less ball time for the always seeking limelight Bryant. Can he really accept throwing the ball in the post to Artest, say 4-5 straight trips even if it's the proper play? I seriously doubt it and even if he does, all it means is he'll be taking less shots, which is another positive for the Spurs.
Farmar is a better ball handler than Gasol for sure. Overall though, this alignment doesn't posses enough ball handling to play long stretches together, I don't believe.
Not to go all Marc Jackson on you, but how many of these guys are willing passers? You need at least one perimeter player on the court who's willing to defer and play the spot up shooter role. Artest can't handle playing that type of role for long.
I know what the triangle entails, but the point remains: who will willingly defer? Be honest, how many of these guys would willingly take on a lesser offensive role, even if it was for the greater good of the team? They put up with it to some extent to win a championship. Now they're all paid and are all desperate for the spotlight. The whole lack of a true PG thing worked with guys like Harper and Shaw, because they understood and were content with their role.
Last edited by TD 21; 10-03-2009 at 11:32 PM.
Farmar may be quick but he's defensively challenged for who knows what reason. Tony's eyes light up when he sees Farmar... so if the Lakers are going to get torched anyways, why not just let Kobe sag off of Tony Parker and let Tony become a jumpshooter?
The Lakers did something similar to this last year when they put Trevor Ariza on Tony Parker and Ariza's length bothered Tony.
Lamar I suspect would be the primary ball-handler, and that's what he did all last year, he's more than willing to pass...sometimes too willing. When Lamar's on the floor, he usually brings the ball up the court and initiates the offense. Agreed on Artest, he wants his touches. This is the kinder, gentler, team player Kobe..he averaged like 7 assists in the Finals versus 3 for the Magic Point guard.
If Tony Parker's guarding Kobe, you're gonna hear alot of "Mama there goes that man!" from Marc Jackson
Good point. Quite honestly, the Lakers don't have an answer for Parker, so maybe at least trying this lineup for a stretch or two to make him work defensively in the post is the best way to go.Farmar may be quick but he's defensively challenged for who knows what reason. Tony's eyes light up when he sees Farmar... so if the Lakers are going to get torched anyways, why not just let Kobe sag off of Tony Parker and let Tony become a jumpshooter?
The Lakers did something similar to this last year when they put Trevor Ariza on Tony Parker and Ariza's length bothered Tony.
Lamar I suspect would be the primary ball-handler, and that's what he did all last year, he's more than willing to pass...sometimes too willing. Agreed on Artest, he wants his touches. This is the kinder, gentler, team player Kobe..he averaged like 7 assists in the Finals versus 3 for the Magic Point guard.
If Tony Parker's guarding Kobe, you're gonna hear alot of "Mama there goes that man!" from Marc Jackson
Ariza is longer and laterally quicker than Bryant.
Odom and Gasol would be willing to pass, as they always are, but the entire notion of these five playing together probably means an overall lack of ball movement. They all want touches and three of them like to massage the ball for long stretches. I could just picture Bynum not getting the ball 4 or 5 straight trips, then pouting and not guarding the rim and rebounding like he should.
Agreed.
I don't know, maybe it's all over analyzing anyway? The reality is, while the Lakers will undoubtedly present match-up challenges to the Spurs, so to will the Spurs to the Lakers. Name a team with a better perimeter scoring trio than Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson? Add to that the fact that Duncan is still the best low post scorer in the game and these four have a cadre of shooters surrounding them and you have one imposing lineup.
I think we've covered most of the points and beaten this to death...should be interesting if Phil pulls it off.
I never said the Spurs would be chopped liver, hahah. Yes, the Spurs have a very good team this year. I personally think 1 of the 3 (Lakers, Spurs, Celtics) will win the ring this year. Of course, I think the Lakers have the best chance of the 3, but you'll have to cut me some slack for being a homer.
Indeed. Unfortunately, it's not quite time to see how it'll all unfold, so they'll inevitably be many more discussions on the intricacies of this potential playoff match-up.
True, but I always see people talking about how imposing the Lakers lineup will be and insinuating "how will the Spurs stop them?" What I'm saying is the Lakers have to worry about stopping all of the Spurs weapons as well. I agree about those three being the primary contenders.
They can't counter this lineup...they will experiment as usual...but never get a steady starting 5 AS USUAL!! bwahahahaha
That's a heck of a talented lineup, though. Too bad there's only one basketball.
You play through gimmick lineups like that, because any advantage on one end is a disadvantage on the other, and any advantage by the lineup is negated when they have to rest. If Jackson uses that lineup, he'll throw it out at the beginning of the fourth quarter or something just to try to force the other team to react. Unfortunately, Pop always shrinks when Phil does that.
TP is going to kill that line up. Here is how you counter;
TP Hill Bogans Blair and Theo
That's enough defense to keep the game close. Scoring will came easier from Tony, Hill and Blair.
Our second unit of Manu Mason RJ Dice and TD will freaking murder Laker's second unit
When was the last time Odom played the 3? The Lakers perimeter defence would be porous and their offensive spacing atrocious. No truth to this rumour.
Lakers second Unit
Fisher/Farmar/Brown
Kobe probably stay in/Vujacic when he's not or some other scrub
Walton
Mbenga
Powell
With TP going against them? He'd have a field day.
I don't see why we need to counter their big lineup with a big lineup? It's silly to think Tony would be benched because in a situation where the Lakers go big it would create matchup nightmares for them if we were to play our usual game. I'd like to see Artest chasing around Parker, or if Kobe took Parker then I would like to see Artest chasing around Ginobili. Artest no longer has the quickness and speed to guard the quicker 1's, 2's, or even the quickest of 3's anymore.
I hope Jackson is stupid enough to play this lineup but it's not likely. Lakers bifggest problem last year was matching up with athletic teams and this would be playing up to that weakness in spades. Teams v=could just spread the floor, move the ball and look for the best 3 point shot that gave them 5 seconds to get off. Spurs should play Jefferson on Odom. It isn't exactly as if Odom has a post up game. Play Parker on Artest and collapse on him when he tries to post. Artest sucks at passing out of a post up. Meanwhile knock down the three point pigeons. Please Phyllis do it.
As good as it looks on Paper, that big lineup by the Lakers can really hurt them!
Kobe - Hill (Kobe clearly wins the advantage, but Hill/parker can pressure Full Court and force him to pass) *** the only person that was able to give Parker any trouble last year was Ariza because he's just as young, long and athletic! Ron Ron can not do that.
Ron - Manu / Finley can guard Ron Artest, Ron Artest can not hold Manu
Lamar - Dejuan Blair/ Bonner / Richard Jefferson can guard Lamar
Pau - Tim Duncan can guard Gasol
Bynum - McDyess / Ian / Ratliff
The Lakers are not going to Win by 20 points anytime against the Spurs this Season! They will be good games nonetheless, and i look forward to watching these two teams go at it!
One Thing i have to mention is, outside that Big Line-up, they have no one else, well maybe except Derek Fisher, but thats about it! Shannon Brown is an up and coming player, but not he is not a game changer, other than that, there bench is whack, and they cant go with that line up the whole game, it will cause to much clutter for the Lakers, no spacing, no one to distribute the ball, (Kobe can do that, but he is not a PG by heart, so he is limited as a distributer). But I feel the Spurs are Strong, from their #1 guy (Tim Duncan) All stars tony parker and 6th man Manu Ginobili, to their supporting cast and Bench! they have a Solid! 10 guys, and best believe Pop will use them all!
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