What most Detroit apologists/lovers foreget is that the Pistons might not even be champs if Kobe feeds Shaq the ball consistantly. Kobe doesn't jack up shot after shot, I'd be willing to bet the Lakers win in 6...
Sassssssss hated the Spurs before Rasho was even here...
He also once said Drob was soft because he had lost to Shaq and Chris Webber in the playoffs...
That tells you how clueless he is...because he also beat Shaq and he's never even played Chris Webber...
It takes a true punk to rate Webber over the Admiral.
This guy knows nothing about the game. Nothing. If he has a choice of taking AI or Duncan, he'd take AI.
And don't forget that Larry Brown is his guy....from the Philly days.
"if robert horry's shot goes down in game 5 of the 2003 series..."
"if the blazers hit ANYTHING in the last 12 minutes in the 2000 WCF...."
"If the Kings could hit a free throw in 2002"
"If the suns..."
Um, well phoenix really hasnt done anything important enough to warrent second-guessing.....I doubt that changes any this year, either.
Tim Legler picked the Timberwolves at the beginning of the year. He called them the deepest team in basketball IIRC. SAS didn't think Robinson was a good playoff performer as the first option, and he isn't far off base. Robinson was incredibly valuable as a role player, which is why Smith's opinions changed.
Certainly, I'm not taking away last years le, but stating that the way in which it was won should have bearing on the Pistons' status as favorites this year.
They should not be the favorites, for many reasons other than the one I gave.
they won by scoring more points than the other team in 4 games. Same as every other team in NBA history.
So the '99 Bulls were the favorite to win the le, simply because they won it in '98? Hmmm...I don't remember Stephen A picking them.
The Pistons are and were worthy champions and they deserve appreciation from all SpurFans for keeping that Laker team from winning....For keeping Karl Malone ringless, and for being the finishing blow to the Kobe Shaq abomination that plagued the NBA for years.
Since most Spurfans have had to listen to idiots sticking asterisks on their les...I can't see why any of us wouldn't just give the Pistons their props for winning the le.
You're in denial if you think the Lakers implosian had nothing to do with Detroit's win.
The fact that Detroit won the le last year is not what I'm questioning (I hate the Lakers; SUNS?!?!). I'm questioning the relevance of last year's win over an aged and imploding team on this year's favorite rankings.
Certainly the Pistons are a top-5 team...but they lack the depth of last year, they lack the intensity of last year, the lack the consistancy of last year and their are teams that are simply better than they are this year. So, just because they are the defending champs, doesn't mean they should be the favorite.
A-Farking-Men. Nice to see Phil Jackson lose a second time, too.The Pistons are and were worthy champions and they deserve appreciation from all SpurFans for keeping that Laker team from winning....For keeping Karl Malone ringless
Yep again. While last year sure seemed like it was the Spurs' championship to lose, the Pistons are the ones that got it done when it counted, as always happens in the playoffs. Win or go home.
I don't know that I've ever heard of anyone who isn't a Lakers fan or Louis the Rockettes fan talking about aterisks.
The Lakers imploded because we were kicking their ASS........Oh wait, they must have just decided to implode once they made the finals....
......and yet you continue to do just that....The fact that Detroit won the le last year is not what I'm questioning
McDyess is 10 times better than ANYTHING we had on the bench last season....or do you mean the James/Okur/Williamson trio that got pummeled in the playoffs, and averaged a COMBINED 8ppg.....Certainly the Pistons are a top-5 team...but they lack the depth of last year
Oh, and Arroyo is sure sucking up a storm also
.....and yet somehow we're going to have a better record than we did last year....yeah, we're so much wrose now, what with every starter improving, and all....they lack the intensity of last year, the lack the consistancy of last year
That remains to be seen. There isn't a single roster in the NBA that I give much of a chance of beating us, aside from the Spurs. Every other team is seriously flawed in one way or another in terms of dealing with us.and their are teams that are simply better than they are this year.
No, the Lakers imploded and Detroit took advantage. This is not to slight Detroit in any way, but it's the truth. Kobe made it known with his play early and often that he would not allow Shaq to dominate the series...You're in denial if you think the Lakers implosian had nothing to do with Detroit's win.
The Lakers imploded because we were kicking their ASS........Oh wait, they must have just decided to implode once they made the finals....
This idiotic offense played right into Detroit's defensive hands. Certainly Detroit should be credited for beating the Lakers, but their win last year over an imploding club should have no bearing over what they can do this year.
I have never questioned the win, but rather why it so heavily factors into this years playoff rankings.......and yet you continue to do just that....The fact that Detroit won the le last year is not what I'm questioning
If you have ESPN INsider, go read Hollinger's piece on the difference between this year's bench and last year's bench.Certainly the Pistons are a top-5 team...but they lack the depth of last year
McDyess is 10 times better than ANYTHING we had on the bench last season....or do you mean the James/Okur/Williamson trio that got pummeled in the playoffs, and averaged a COMBINED 8ppg.....
Oh, and Arroyo is sure sucking up a storm also
Overall record does not equal play...otherwise Phoenix would be ranked higher than other teams this year. You can't use the argument whenever you wish. Either we grade teams on the way they play on the court or by their record.they lack the intensity of last year, the lack the consistancy of last year
.....and yet somehow we're going to have a better record than we did last year....yeah, we're so much wrose now, what with every starter improving, and all....
San Antonio, Miami, Dallas and Phoenix are all top-tier teams. All are pretty well equal going in, but of the group I'd say San Antonio is the favorite (I can prove I have said this all along and am not just a Johnny Come-lately on a Spurs message board)...and their are teams that are simply better than they are this year.
That remains to be seen. There isn't a single roster in the NBA that I give much of a chance of beating us, aside from the Spurs. Every other team is seriously flawed in one way or another in terms of dealing with us.
Sure it should. They were the best team in the league last season and they brought their core back. They are still relatively young and are playing very well right now. If they got the job done last year in the playoffs, are playing very well at the end of the season, and have won more games this season than last season, shouldn't they be among the favored teams again?This idiotic offense played right into Detroit's defensive hands. Certainly Detroit should be credited for beating the Lakers, but their win last year over an imploding club should have no bearing over what they can do this year.
By your logic, what happens in the past is irrelevant. So playoff experience means nothing. Is the experience gained by the Pistons in last year's playoffs useless? Does the playoff experience of Duncan, Horry, Manu, Parker, and Bowen simply get thrown out the window? Does their ability to win big playoff games in the past mean nothing?
They know how to win in the playoffs. They know how to win in the finals. Whether you like to believe it or not, that will have some bearing on how they perform in the playoffs this season.
O.K. I'll bet with you. Now prove me wrong.What most Detroit apologists/lovers foreget is that the Pistons might not even be champs if Kobe feeds Shaq the ball consistantly. Kobe doesn't jack up shot after shot, I'd be willing to bet the Lakers win in 6...
What are those reasons?They should not be the favorites, for many reasons other than the one I gave.
I don't know what an implosian is, but I do know that every single game won in the NBA has something to do with how the opponent plays. That's not news.You're in denial if you think the Lakers implosian had nothing to do with Detroit's win.
They may have lost a slight amount of depth, but that's questionable. And they've been playing great basketball lately. I haven't noticed this dropoff in intensity that you cite lately. Where are you getting that from?Certainly the Pistons are a top-5 team...but they lack the depth of last year, they lack the intensity of last year, the lack the consistancy of last year and their are teams that are simply better than they are this year.
No, but if you combine the fact that they are champions bringing back the same core with the fact that they are playing great basketball right now it's certainly arguable that they should be favored.So, just because they are the defending champs, doesn't mean they should be the favorite.
I think that the Spurs will win this year too. But I couldn't fault anyone for picking Detroit even if they aren't going to be my pick. They beat a very good Lakers team in the finals last season. They got some valuable experience. They gained confidence and the ability to win big games. That's worth a whole lot more than you will admit.
Since Jan 1, the Pistons have the best record in the NBA. I'd say thats pretty consistent.....
Never said this, people are reading to far into things. I said Detroit earned the win by beating the Lakers, but that the Lakers did some stupid things that both played into the Pistons defensive hands and that may have cost them the series.
The stats and games bear this out, that Kobe seemed -bent on not allowing Shaq to dominate the series. If the Lakers play the way the had in winning three les, rather than the Kobe dribble, dribble, dribble shoot offense, then perhaps Detroit doesn't hoist the trophy, or at least doesn't do so so easily.
O.K. I'll bet with you. Now prove me wrong.
Obivously you are quite intellegant and should use some common sense and recall the Championship offense that won the Lakers three les and then compare it to Kobe's selfish play that dominated the series...then tell me things would have or would have not changed. Maybe not the ultimate outcome, but certainly the series.
Gave them already, they are there...What are those reasons?
All right first off, no need to be a jack ass if something is spelled wrong. Implosian, Imploding, whatever...you got what I was trying to say.I don't know what an implosian is, but I do know that every single game won in the NBA has something to do with how the opponent plays. That's not news.
No, it certainly is not news, but if the Suns defeat the Spurs because they are playing without Duncan, the Suns therefore can't say that they should be the favorites in a series. The Lakers were effectively playing without Malone and Shaq, one due to injury, the other due to play decisions.
What they did against an imploding team should not give them a free ride to the "favorite" le this year. That's all I've said all along. Simply because you are the Champs, doesn't mean you should be favored.
San Antonio is better and other teams can be argued. Last year was last year and while somethings can be taken from it (like experience), the overall outcomes have no bearing on the repdictions for the final outcome this year.
It's called watching the games and not the standings. They certainly have not been the dominant team of last year, thus the intensity remark...they started slow and were supposed to have turned the corner back in February, then went on the road out West and got smacked around...then they struggled and now they seem to be playing well...thus the inconsistancy remark.They may have lost a slight amount of depth, but that's questionable. And they've been playing great basketball lately. I haven't noticed this dropoff in intensity that you cite lately. Where are you getting that from?
Hey, you want to overestimate the Pistons because of last season's accomplishments rather than what they have proven this year, fine...I'll go on this year's team, this year's numbers, this year's struggles and this year's chances.No, but if you combine the fact that they are champions bringing back the same core with the fact that they are playing great basketball right now it's certainly arguable that they should be favored.
I think that the Spurs will win this year too. But I couldn't fault anyone for picking Detroit even if they aren't going to be my pick. They beat a very good Lakers team in the finals last season. They got some valuable experience. They gained confidence and the ability to win big games. That's worth a whole lot more than you will admit.
They are a fine team, but a little research will bear this point out...
They are 4-4 vs. the Spurs, Suns, Mavericks, SuperSonics, beating San Anotnio and Phoenix without Duncan and Nash respectively.
Their defense has gone from 83ppg to 89ppg while just going from 90ppg to 93ppg on offense...so, statistically they are no better than their Western Conference counterparts and have suffered defensively because of the new rules.
They are 3-1 vs. Miami, but at least the last win came with Shaq out...
ESPN INsider's John Hollinger detailed the difference between this year's bench and last year's bench.
Last year the Pistons had different looks off the bench. They had some finesse with Okur, gruff hustle with Williamson, energy and shooting with James and then Campbell for size off the bench. These players complimented their starters by providing different looks on offense.
The new Pistons bench is too redundant. McDyess is a mirror image of what the starters bring and Arroyo is a Billups clone. Sure it's good, but it doesn't cause mismatched and it doesn't spread the floor and provide energy of last year's squad.
All season they win four in a row, lose three in a row, win five in a row, lose four in a row, win eight in a row, lose 6 of 7...
Factor in the coach being a health risk, not to mention being a little flighty right now as to whether or not he really wants to coach and the fact that it's quite hard to repeat as Champion and I just don't see it...
Relevancy
Intensity
Bench
Consistancy
Other factors...
I think I've qualified my points. If you want to disagree and say the Pistons should be the favorites, fine...If you care to read my posts and see that I was never critical of the Pistons le last year and never said they didn't deserve praise this year, but rather questioned how the accomplishments of a different team against an imploding opponant automatically makes them the favorites despite new players, qestionable intensity and inconsistant play and all sorts of other question marks...then perhaps you'll agree that the Pistons deserve to be in the top-5, but not necessarily the favorite.
Last edited by JMarkJohns; 04-18-2005 at 08:48 PM.
Only because one Tim Duncan has been hurt. Pistons a good team granted but weaker bench than in past , but picking them all year to meet Spurs in finals that the NBA talking heads will hate but will really be a good series.
Spurs in 6.
And the Suns have beat them in that stretch.
And since the All-Star break the Nuggets are the top-team in the League...
Suns have beaten the Nuggets twice during this stretch.
Record doesn't always indicate quality of play. Suns have the best record and nobody has them favored.
This is silly.
I state one fact and a hypothetical and all of a sudden it's taken personal and blown out of proportion.
stop bringing up the Pistons bench. Seriously. You're beginning to look as dumb as Hollinger, who doesn't watch basketball either. He just writes with statistics....
Okur, Williamson and James got DEMOLISHED in the playoffs. Our bench was outscored in 3 of 4 playoff rounds.
Any idiot can see that Arroyo and McDyess are better FITS with the Pistons than the guys we let go, McDyess especially.
You really haven't watched the Pistons at all, have you?
McDyess is a stud this year, even without the hops he had early in his career. Underestimating the Pistons would be a mistake.
That's why I pick the Pistons in the East. Just like the Spurs, they are always underestimated.
I think that suits both teams just fine...
They beat the Lakers...not Shaq. Shaq had a monster seriers v. Pistons. They didn't have an answer for him last year, and he's in better shape this year (that's what motivation, i.e., hatred, will do for you). If he's healthy this year, a Heat-Pistons matchup will be rough.
If about 10 times doesn't qualify, then no...I guess I haven't.
Can you honestly tell me you're as confident with this team defensively, with this team offensively, with this team consistantly as you were with last year's team?!
When it comes to the playoffs? Not a freaking doubt.
Offensively, this year's team is MILES better. Defensively, we're close to the same. The new rules hurt us a bit, but they hurt EVERYONE. Our defense is still as good as it gets.
Individually, Rip is a better player. Prince is a much, MUCH better player than he was last year. Billups has a better grasp of the offense, which he didn't have last year.
Our starting 5 won the NBA le last year. Our bench was merely along for the ride. And that same 5 is collectively better and more experienced.
We actually have a POINT GUARD on the bench in Arroyo, which we didn't last year, and that allows hunter to play off the ball and play his role better. We don't have the offensive droughts we had last year, because he pushes the ball.
At one point this year, we were racking up 30+ assist games like candy. We also set a team record for fewest turnovers.
You can call it inconsistency, I guess. They just were disinterested early on. The regular season doesnt mean much to them anymore.
All right, then...
I don't think the intensity is there on defense and I don't see the same versatility off the bench, but hey...whatever.
You're happy, I'm happy for you.
I'll give ya that Prince is better. I wanted the Suns to draft him in 02-03 (they took Jacobson for his "shooting")...
I'll grant ya they weren't interested early, but even of late (or recently) vs. top-tier teams, they haven't dominated the way they did last year. They seem content to just skate by, for example the Miami game last Sunday.
Not every team, however, can just turn on the switch for the playoffs and get away with it. The Lakers could because they had arguably the two best players at their positions and arguably the most dominant center of this generation.
Detroit simply doesn't have that. They don't even have the dominant defense anymore (still very good, but not like last year IMO)...They are a very good team who seems to be living off the "Champinoship" rep from last season. Yes, the starters are all the same. I'm just not sure that's enough...
they're content to skate by, because they haven't played a meaningful game in what seems like forever. They've been locked into the #2 seed for about a month now, with almost no hope of moving up, and no worries about moving down. Their last 10 games or so they've been tuning up for the playoffs. Still, the Pistons don't really turn up the heat unless they really feel threatened. I expect the playoffs to be a different animal, because it will be the first real EXCITING action they've seen in months.
....as for last year's team, they didn't dominate the best, either. They split with LA, split with SA, got swept by Sac, got dismantled in Dallas, got swept by Minnesota, lost to Indiana three times.......
We actually have a BETTER record this year vs the top teams.....
Of course, when we hit the playoffs, none of that mattered anymore. The regular season means precious little. Williamson stopped being effective, James forgot how to shoot, Okur barely EVER got off the bench.....Our playoff rotation consisted mainly of our starting 5, and hunter and Camppbell. That was it.
Last edited by FearDaFro; 04-19-2005 at 03:08 AM.
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