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Pretty good stat digging... shows what kind of tier Duncan is on. Would be cool to see a list of like the top 50 players sorted for each category.
Nice work!
haha true
Pretty good stat digging... shows what kind of tier Duncan is on. Would be cool to see a list of like the top 50 players sorted for each category.
Nice work!
Interesting use of numbers, but it won't change the fact that the answer to the question is Bill Russell.
And if you want to looks beyond NBA, Russell also won two NCAA championships and an Olympic le in the two years before turning pro.
They knew too much. They had to die.
Russell's HoF teammates:
1957
Tom Heinsohn; all-star
Bill Sharman; all-star, all-NBA (1st)
Bob Cousy, all-star, all-NBA (1st), MVP (1st)
Frank Ramsey
Arnie Risen
Andy Phillip
1959
Tom Heinsohn
Bill Sharman; all-star, all-NBA (1st)
Bob Cousy; all-star, all-NBA (1st), MVP (4th)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones
K.C. Jones
1960
Tom Heinsohn; MVP (10th)
Bill Sharman; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Bob Cousy; all-star, all-NBA (1st), MVP (4th)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones
K.C. Jones
1961
Tom Heinsohn; all-star, all-NBA (2nd), MVP (6th)
Bill Sharman
Bob Cousy; all-star, all-NBA (1st)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones
K.C. Jones
1962
Tom Heinsohn; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Bob Cousy; all-star, all-NBA (2nd), MVP (8th)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones; all-star
K.C. Jones
1963
Tom Heinsohn; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Bob Cousy; all-star, all-NBA (2nd), MVP (8th)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones
K.C. Jones
John Havlicek; MVP (10th)
Clyde Lovellette
1964
Tom Heinsohn; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Frank Ramsey
Sam Jones; all-star, MVP (9th)
K.C. Jones
John Havlicek, all-NBA (2nd)
Clyde Lovellette
1965
Tom Heinsohn; all-star
Sam Jones; all-star, all-NBA (2nd), MVP (4th)
K.C. Jones
John Havlicek
1966
Sam Jones; all-star, all-NBA (2nd), MVP (5th)
K.C. Jones
John Havlicek; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
1968
Sam Jones; all-star
John Havlicek; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Bailey Howell
1969
Sam Jones
John Havlicek; all-star, all-NBA (2nd)
Bailey Howell
Average Russell Ring
5 teammates besides Russell are Hall-of-Famers
2 teammates besides Russell are all-stars
This means the average Bill Russell team started 3 or 4 all-stars and/or all-NBA players or MVP vote getters, 5 Hall-of-Famers (including 3 or 4 Top 50 all-time players), and even the 6th man was a Hall-of-Famer!
Frankly, Russell winning 11 rings in an 8-team league and this kind of talent, is NOT more impressive than Tim getting 4 rings in a 30-team league.
Tim > Russell
Last edited by Galileo; 11-26-2009 at 11:58 PM.
You forgot Shaq who has 31. Of course if he wins this year he gets to 42.
1999-2000
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Glen Rice
3. Ron Harper
4. Robert Horry
5. Brian Shaw
6. Rick Fox
7. Derek Fisher
8. A.C. Green
9. Devean George
10. Travis Knight
11. John Salley
2000-2001
Kobe Bryant
Derek Fisher
Rick Fox
12. Horace Grant
Robert Horry
Brian Shaw
13. Tyronn Lue
Devean George
Ron Harper
14. Mark Madsen
15. Greg Foster
2001-2002
Kobe Bryant
Derek Fisher
Rick Fox
Robert Horry
Devean George
16. Samaki Walker
Brian Shaw
17. Lindsey Hunter
18. Stanislav Medvedenko
19. Mitch Richmond
Mark Madsen
2006
20. Dwyane Wade
21. Antoine Walker
22. Jason Williams
23. Udonis Haslem
24. James Posey
25. Gary Payton
26. Alonzo Mourning
27. Derek Anderson
28. Michael Doleac
29. Shandon Anderson
30. Wayne Simien
31. Jason Kapono
Here's Duncan for comparison. I'd say Duncan and Shaq are pretty comparable.
Tim Duncan
1998 - 1999
1. David Robinson
2. Avery Johnson
3. Sean Elliott
4. Jaren Jackson
5. Mario Elie
6. Malik Rose
7. Jerome Kersey
8. Antonio Daniels
9. Steve Kerr
10. Will Perdue
11. Gerard King
2002-2003
12. Tony Parker
13. Stephen Jackson
14. Manu Ginobili
Malik Rose
David Robinson
15. Bruce Bowen
16. Speedy Claxton
17. Kevin Willis
Steve Kerr
18. Danny Ferry
19. Steve Smith
2004-2005
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
20. Robert Horry
21. Nazr Mohammed
22. Brent Barry
Bruce Bowen
23. Beno Udrih
24. Glenn Robinson
25. Devin Brown
26. Rasho Nesterovic
27. Tony Massenburg
2006-2007
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobili
28. Michael Finley
Bruce Bowen
29. Fabricio Oberto
Robert Horry
30. Francisco Elson
Brent Barry
31. Jacque Vaughn
32. Matt Bonner
Beno Udrih
Shaq wasn't the best player on the team in 2006.
You can also question Russell's first and last rings in that regard.
In 1957, Cousy was the MVP, and Russell wasn't even the rookie-of-the year, Heinsohn was, and Russell was not an all-star or all-NBA player.
In 1969, Russell did not even average double-digits, and Hondo averaged 25 points and 10 boards in the playoffs.
Before Russell got there none of those guys won anything. Including Auerbach, who had been coaching for a long time.
After he left, they stopped winning.
With the exception of Cousy, Havlicek, and maybe Sam Jones, it is easy to argue that all those guys are in the HoF only because of Russell.
Really? Name one other person who did what Russell did.Frankly, Russell winning 11 rings in an 8-team league and this kind of talent, is NOT more impressive than Tim getting 4 rings in a 30-team league.
Meanwhile, there are quite a few other people who have won 4 rings during or immediately preceding the Duncan era.
Your statement is a complete logical failure.
Tim Duncan's incredible record speaks for itself. It doesn't need laughable hyperbole to prop it up.
Fin wasnt an all-star when he got here and "arguably" shouldnt count until its fact.
Cool stat digging, but both sides of the argument have huge holes regarding the "Russell" Effect.But pretty cool to debate. I do agree with Galileo to a certain extent. OHHHH....and I wouldnt compare the talent level of teammates betweeen Shaq and Tim, because I dont think its real close Jack.
The 1956 Celtics were the 2nd best team in the NBA according to the Basketball Reference SRS, and had the 2nd best record (39-33).
They had to play a 3-game playoff series in the first round against Syracuse (35-37), rated 4th best in the NBA by the SRS.
The Celtics had the home court and won the first game by 17 points.
Then they lost a real close road nail-bite-er by 3 points. Then they blew it at home and lost by 5.
The Celtics were very close to crossing the hump. They had to play a short series were upsets are more likely, and then despite having a +9 point differential, lost the series.
The 1956 Celtics had three Hall-of-Famers, Cousy, Sharman, and Risen.
In the next season, 1957, the Celtics added FOUR HALL-OF FAMERS. Yes FOUR more in one season. And they kept the three they already had.
They added Bill Russell.
They Added Tom Heinsohn who won the rookie of the year award (not Russell), and averaged 23 points and 12 rebounds in the playoffs. He was 2nd on the Celtics on PER for the playoffs.
They also added Frank Ramsey, who is known as the first "6th man" in NBA history, and led the Celtics in PER in the playoffs.
They also added veteran Andy Phillip, a man know as being drafted ahead of Bob Cousy. Phillip had been an all-star as recently as 1955, and had played in the '55 and '56 NBA Finals. Phillip was the second best passer of the 1950s, behind Cousy. He lead the NBA in assists in '50, '51, '52, was 2nd in '53, '54, '55, and was 5th in '56.
They still had Cousy, who lead the NBA in assists and averaged 20.6 points per game. In the playoffs, he averaged 20 points, 9 assists, and 6 reboinds per game, yet was only 4th on the team in playoff PER.
Bill Sharman averaged 21 points and shot over 90% from the free throw line.
Risen, who in the '56 playoffs had averaged 12 points and 15 boards per game, was reduced to a 15-minute per game role player in the '57 playoffs.
So the Celtics were totally loaded with talent in 1957.
And Hondo & Don Nelson won two more NBA les AFTER Russell left, and Don Chaney won one more after Russell left.
So your logic does not wash.
Based on the criteria in this thread, Kobe will eclipse all in a few years and become the greatest winner in NBA history. He's already on par with TD(actually a little above at this point), and he's likely to grab a few more rings.
Kobe only has one ring.
Second best plus the "best" player can't seem to do squat without him. Anfernee Hardaway was supposedly great when he played with Shaq. Without him ... not so much.
Shaq took three different teams to the finals. There's a reason that teams like PHX and CLE keep taking flyers on him as a guy that might put them over the top.
You're not unbiased, nor a Cleveland fan...
And there's a reason Kobe is not in this conversation. He doesn't belong in it.
Now, feel free to start a new thread about it in the NBA forum if you disagree.
Hardaway was a great player who got injured.
With Shaq, Penny shot 50%. Without him, he never got above 44%.
Penny had constanat injuries. He won the NBA player of the month when Shaq was injured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Hardaway
Again ... 50% with Shaq, low 40s without him. My original argument still stands. Penny was a good player made great by Shaq.
We are off on a rabbit trail here anyway.
I'm reading Bill Simmons' book right now and he has Duncan listed as the 7th greatest player ever, behind these players (in reverse order 6-1) Wilt, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Russell and Jordan. Pretty impressive company although I'm sure Phila won't like the order.
Having said that, when you can say that you were arguably the best player on your championship teams and have more rings than fingers, you can definitely be considered the greatest winner in NBA history.
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