Can any liberal or "Progressive"...

[Marcus Bryant]

The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody

True, I guess we were warned about this as well during the campaign:

"Barack Obama will require you to work."

source

[da_suns_fan]

This is embarrassing for Supergirl.

"The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody."

Yeah, EXCEPT Union workers!! HENCE THIS ING THREAD!

[doobs]

This is embarrassing for Supergirl.

"The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody."

Yeah, EXCEPT Union workers!! HENCE THIS ING THREAD!

Supergirl thinks everyone SHOULD be in a union. The government should be giving workers a nudge to join a union. You see, workers don't know what's good for them.

I mean, unions fight for your rights, man!

[baseline bum]

Supergirl thinks everyone SHOULD be in a union. The government should be giving workers a nudge to join a union. You see, workers don't know what's good for them.

I mean, unions fight for your rights, man!

You mean workers have no power without them. I find it hilarious that the right wants concentrated power in only one direction; that of the totalitarian owner. Can't have unions doing radical things like democratizing things for the working class. I can understand the hatred of unions from the elite and those brainwashed by the elite: worker organization is the only real defense against divide and conquer methods that work well for everything from worker suppression, to conquering nations in war, to sorting arrays. Split everything up so it can't coordinate and then crush each small problem with one's greater might.

[doobs]

You mean workers have no power without them. I find it hilarious that the right wants concentrated power in only one direction; that of the totalitarian owner. Can't have unions doing radical things like democratizing things for the working class.

Are you done making up yet? Do you feel better?

[baseline bum]

Are you done making up yet? Do you feel better?

Are you done being re ed?

[Marcus Bryant]

You mean workers have no power without them. I find it hilarious that the right wants concentrated power in only one direction; that of the totalitarian owner.

eh, no. Perhaps the strawman Monopoly man version does.

[Marcus Bryant]

Further, an owner can only be "totalitarian" to the extent the society and economy is not free.

Only in America could someone postulate that a majority of the workforce lives in . Yeah, the "average" (since we so love the mean in this country) American who works for 'totalitarian owners' isn't exactly eating mudpies as they do in Haiti. I mean, perspective. Damn.

And spare me the union fellatio. This grand free economy, for better or worse, is what has driven those workplace improvements. Now, yes, Americans are generally much more dependent economically and politically than they were, say, in the 19th century.

Then we have unions organizing against the state sometimes...man, can they both lose?

I know, don't piss on the great left liberal progressive Marxist narrative of history.

[baseline bum]

Only in America could someone postulate that a majority of the workforce lives in . Yeah, the "average" (since we so love the mean in this country) American who works for 'totalitarian owners' isn't exactly eating mudpies as they do in Haiti. I mean, perspective. Damn.

You call my argument a strawman and come back with this? Of course the right that has tried to kill worker organization since Saint Ronnie's time wants concentrated power only going one way. That's why they kill unions and preach the gospel of all government being bad, since it's the only thing the people have anything that could even be considered a vote in.

And spare me the union fellatio. This grand free economy, for better or worse, is what has driven those workplace improvements. Now, yes, Americans are generally much more dependent economically and politically than they were, say, in the 19th century.

Then we have unions organizing against the state sometimes...man, can they both lose?

I know, don't piss on the great left liberal progressive Marxist narrative of history.

Or the great right narrative that it was all free markets and not stolen land and genocide that made this nation wealthy.

[da_suns_fan]

Unions are pseudo-government that were created because government wasnt protecting worker rights. I understand why they were created.

But union workers dont have to pay the tax while everyone else does?!!!

OBAMA. THE DEMS.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, obviously life is in this country for most, despite the general lack of union organization.

And yes, a market economy had more to do with that than the trail of tears. Or, turn off the laptop and return to the land if you hate it so.

[baseline bum]

Yeah, obviously life is in this country for most, despite the general lack of union organization.

And yes, a market economy had more to do with that than the trail of tears. Or, turn off the laptop and return to the land if you hate it so.

The laptop isn't a good example to use here, since the computer industry in America came about only because of huge money fed by the government into developing machines capable of cracking German codes in WWII and to develop ARPAnet. Our abundant farmland and our great store of natural resources doesn't owe itself to systematic murder of a people? (a people who were easy to destroy because they weren't organized and could be picked off one tribe at a time)

[baseline bum]

Unions are pseudo-government that were created because government wasnt protecting worker rights. I understand why they were created.

But union workers dont have to pay the tax while everyone else does?!!!

OBAMA. THE DEMS.

I don't like the idea of health benefits being tied into workplace compensation, but Supergirl has a pretty valid point that heavily taxing their health plans is basically telling all the union members to off and accept a large paycut. A better alternative would be to get rid of the state subsidizing employer health plans with private insurers completely, so that unions and workers would have more incentive to negotiate strictly on more transparent benefits like pay and work hours. I'd prefer a public health system, but even one where the market decided things would be far superior to the cluster we have now (and are fixing to get ourselves even worse into).

[Marcus Bryant]

Right. Obviously the incentive to invest and innovate was centrally planned for decades and the legal framework based on individual and property rights and relatively free markets had nothing to do with that laptop. Bad example indeed.

[EmptyMan]

The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody

[boutons_deux]

"one where the market decided things"

The market will ALWAYS decide to cluster citizens and clients, with the only restraint coming from government.

And market players will always work to make the market less compe ive, less free, moving towards consolidation, cartels, local monopolies and exorbitant profits.

[baseline bum]

Right. Obviously the incentive to invest and innovate was centrally planned for decades and the legal framework based on individual and property rights and relatively free markets had nothing to do with that laptop. Bad example indeed.

I didn't say it had nothing to do with that laptop. I said the state-sponsored research did the heavy-lifting for it, so claiming computers of all things as triumphs of the free market is insanity.

[EmptyMan]

I'm glad I was raised in a world where you can out work your compe ion and not be buried under seniority.

Collective good. Government collects the goods? So fast are people to vote for others to take money out of another's pocket knowing they themselves are too weak to reach out and take it.

[Marcus Bryant]

"one where the market decided things"

The market will ALWAYS decide to cluster citizens, with the only restraint coming from governmebt.

And market players will always work to make the market less compe ive, less free, moving towards consolidation, cartels, local monopolies and exorbitant profits.

The market only screws up when those made wealthy by it use that to change the rules to their advantage by buying off politicians to get rid of market compe ion

[Marcus Bryant]

And assuming no development without govt investment is not a given. Of course, those examples of govt success are often tied to the defense establishment, often given far too much credit in order to attempt to justify mammoth defense expenditures.

[da_suns_fan]

exactly!

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Do you actually want a decent discussion about this? Will you actually listen? Guess we'll see...

Some unions negotiated for so-called "cadillac" health care plans (which really are simply "good" health care plans, the kind we all deserve) in exchange for raises. It was a major concession on their part, and so it's a hard hit to ask them to scale back on these plans. But they need to, in order to provide health care for the rest of the country. What they agreed to recently was to do so, but to delay the date by which it goes into effect in order to give unions enough time to see their current contracts expire and and come up for renegotiation. This is perfectly fair. They're not getting off without being subjected to the tax, they're just getting time to adjust for it.

As for Nelson's agreement - he negotiated a good deal for his state. Perhaps you should elected a politician who fights for his state so well.

The health care bill will require sacrifices from everybody, which is why it's so hard to get through. But it is necessary if we want to avoid the current status quo bankrupting our country. The Democratic caucus is doing their best to negotiate the best deal they can for their cons uents, while keeping the larger national goal of curbing health care costs in sight. The Republicans are simply being obstructionists, and refusing to actually do their jobs, because the status quo benefits the fat cat corporations who fund their campaigns.

Also, do we need a little refresher course on what unions are in the first place. Organized groups of workers coming together to lobby for their rights. Without a union, you have no rights as a worker. That's just the honest truth. And don't think employers are ever going to change that - they hold onto that power fiercely.

The answer is not to bash unions, it's to support unions and encourage more workers to act as a union, to fight for their rights.

You're such a partisan dumbass.

[baseline bum]

As usual, Viva has nothing interesting to say.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

As usual, Viva has nothing interesting to say.

not as interesting as you, yes. i'll give you that much.

[da_suns_fan]

It's not surprising that unions flexed their political muscle to get a special exemption, nor is it a shock that Democrats with no votes to spare caved in. But every sweetheart deal makes health reform, already unpopular in polls and hanging by a thread in Congress, look less like the landmark legislation it ought to be and more like special-interest pandering.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2010/...alth-bill.html