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I don't use it as a crutch and ignore the actual stats like you did.So now advance statistics are yoour friends? How convenient
Edit add: And I admit that it's not the greatest barometer for a statistical argument.
I like Kevin Durant but come on.
KD hasn't even won 1 game against Kobe...the day he "kicks Kobe's ass" is a looong way off.
I don't use it as a crutch and ignore the actual stats like you did.So now advance statistics are yoour friends? How convenient
Edit add: And I admit that it's not the greatest barometer for a statistical argument.
All around game? No. Stats? yes and he should he is younger and should be beating Kobe at scoring his team is not as good.Of course we are morons, eventhough Durant has the better stats, all around game and is leading a young team to the playoffs.
Do I think Kobe could of done the same? Yes if he was healthy all season why the not? they are GOOD team ...
Hollinger will tell you he is better and that is great more power to you and HIM ...
Again doesnt matter to me I like Durant just think you guys are premature ejaculating over him SAME WAY many of you did over Paul.
Kobe was better and still is better than Paul as he is over Durant. But I think durant is closer than Paul was ...and has the chance to be better soon.
Look at a stat like Wins Produced and Howard tops Durant.
I don't like box-score metrics more or less than I like the box-score. Why use PER or WinShares when one can simply say Durant scores X points, y%FG, etc, etc (or, more economically, "look at their stats")? Never understood that.
Wade is better than Durant at everything besides scoring+shooting (but he draws more fouls). About equal on rebounding. Way better playmaker.
I don't think Howard is an offensive liability. That's nonsense. And he creates enough shots. Heck, he creates 51% of his scoring. Durant? 49%. Howard's assist rate is 9%, Durant's 13% and he's a wing, not a post player. Where's that big difference in shot-creation and playmaking? Not seeing it. And these are tangible numbers (only deeper than the very superficial boxscore numbers used in PER and Winshares).
This thread is high comedy
Let's take a walk down memory lane:
#1 5 years ago muy co-workers: TMAC is better than Kobe. Give TMAC shaq and he will win les. orlando is just sorry. Ok Tmac gets traded to Rox plays with Yao ....Still waiting to see proof that TMAC is the better player.
A few years BEFORE THAT it was "AI and VC" are better ...look at how they CARRIED LESSOR teams to the playoffs ...(sound familar?)
Kobe is lucky to have Shaq and Phil ....still waiting...
Others that the GENIUSES (moron is not nice) put Roy, Joe Johnson, pierce etc on the lakers they still win the le last year ....
Lebron is the first guy that I have seen who people can make legitimate claims without just PER win share or some other crap ...that I can see is ready to (and has in many ways) replaced Kobe as the best player in the game. Wade is a close 2nd behind but Durant it's too early to go that route ...
But Durant after 2 seasons ...seriously? Again i love Durant. Those like Jamstone that say he may get innjure cuz of his slender frame I argued against that earlier this week. I wannt him to be good and i hope he does pass Kobe soon ...but right now? Moronic.
Another good post so stats can be used to say Durant is better than kobe but not to say Wade or Howard is better than Durant ...funny stuff.
Thing is Im not mad or butthurt Im sitting at my desk laughing ...much like I did:
LAST year when Roy was better
2 years ago when cp3 Pierce and Joe Johnson was better
before that when TMAC was better
or Vince
or BEFORE that AI ....
LOL you guys should write for the Office ....
T-mac, Carter, AI, Durant, James, Malone, Barkely, Ewing....
All great players....
I'm unfamiliar with "wins produced." Could you provide me a link where I can find those corresponding statistics for all NBA players? I'd be curious to look at that.
And I don't see how 7.4 rebounds per game is "about equal" to 4.7 rebounds per game.
I don't think Howard is an offensive liability. I think there are liabilities in his offensive game. There's a distinction. There have been several instances this season and in the past where Dwight Howard's free throw shooting has been a main reason for his team losing. That's not an opinion, not some metrics statistic. That's has happened. That is a liability. You can argue it's the same for any player missing free throws, but when you're shooting over 10 free throws a game and you're shooting 60% or less, that becomes a bigger issue. Dwight still has issues offensively and that's not based on statistics either. He's a poor passer for as much as he's double-teamed. He still doesn't create for teammates and this 51% of his offense he "creates" for himself is probably skewed. I'd bet a lot of that 51% is from putback dunks. I didn't say Dwight Howard doesn't greatly impact the game. Sure he does.
I just think you're selling players like Durant and Kobe short. Kobe and Durant aren't one-dimensional players who only score. I think it's short-sighted to think that.
but even the Pistons-era Dennis Rodman would have had a tought time with this kid, who drains 30-foot threes with the release point of a Hakeem Olajuwon.
This is the best part of the article. In addition to recognizing Durant's unique gifts... he ALSO mentions Hakeem and THE PISTONS era Rodman ...not the OVERRATED Bulls one ...
Whenm Rodman was the BEST DEFENDER in the NBA ...the Bulls and spurs era Rodman one of the greatest rebounders BUT HIGHLY overrated on defense ...
Can't help. Google it.
rebounds per game is an useless stat. Use rebounding rate and adjust for position.
And a lot of his assisted shots come from pick'n'roll situations where he's a big part of the shot-creation. Plus, a put-back dunk is no less of a shot-created than a cross-over followed by a baseline fade-way.
ps - ah, of course his free-throw shooting is a weakness. But outside of LBJ every player has weaknesses. Even with that weakness, Howard is an excellent offensive player.
I never said they were. I just said the only talent they have at LBJ's level is scoring. And a put-back dunk is, for all effects, a shot created by him.
Last edited by mogrovejo; 03-25-2010 at 06:00 PM.
Google strawman argument.
You're inability to defend your point without resorting to refuting fictional points nobody made is truly saddening.
Does this help?
Wins Produced vs. Win Score
The Wages of Wins Journal
I think he wants the numbers for the players. That's not available, mostly because the formula is still secret.
For the record, Wins Produced is an horrible metric. I'm too lazy to explain why, but trust me. At least PER is just meaningless or, at best, a short-cut for lazy people to use.
I believe the talent on teams in today's NBA are better than the teams from earlier in the decade due to being more stacked(not comparing relation to the other teams at the time, just talking about the talent on the teams), but the current top players in the NBA are a lot worse than they were earlier IMO..it's a lot tougher to rank them right now because there's no clear-cut guys other than Lebron..
Kobe has shown his age this season, Howard still has offensive issues(although he's heavily improved to the dismay of many here, particularly Mav fans), Dirk doesn't impact the game in multiple ways, Carmelo doesn't play D and isn't a leader, Paul has been hurt, Wade is having an off year by his standards and he doesn't come out to play every night, Durant hasn't even played in a playoff game..
Ranking these players is extremely tough right now outside of Lebron due to various reasons..
I wouldn't rank Durant ahead of Lebron, Kobe, Wade or Howard, and I'd have to think about it vs. Anthony and Nowitzki, although I'd probably favor him..I'd like to see how he plays in the playoffs before I rank him..
If Wade went hard more often, I'd put him ahead of Kobe, but he hasn't done that this season, and he's been beyond horrible in clutch time too..his mid-range J has disappeared as well..
I did. Didn't find an expansive chart/list of all NBA players. That's why I asked you. So how do you know Dwight has a higher wins produced than Durant?
Don't need to adjust. They're both perimeter wing players. Should we adjust for height? If you're going to start using qualifiers, then when it comes to assists/play-making, should we adjust assists for position as well? Wade actually plays quite a bit of point guard for the Heat while Kevin Durant doesn't have playmaking responsibilities or responsibilities to initiate the offense like a point guard. Durant's rebounding rate is 10.8% and Wade's is 7.6%. You can adjust what you want. I don't think that's "about equal."rebounds per game is an useless stat. Use rebounding rate and adjust for position.
We'll have to just disagree about Dwight Howard's ability to create offense. I think there are tangible and disconcerting liabilities to his offensive game that really negatively affect the way he could impact the game. In games, his inability to be a dump-down post player who is fed the ball and consistently create a high percentage shot opportunity means he has some holes in his offensive game, liabilities. Now it's not such a big deal because he still scores and scores with a very good FG%. But if you're talking about the best players in the league and you put him in the company of LeBron and Wade ahead of guys like Kobe, Durant, and everyone else in the league, that's something I'd definitely look at to challenge.And a lot of his assisted shots come from pick'n'roll situations where he's a big part of the shot-creation.
Forget LeBron for the moment. Me responding to you was about Dwight Howard and Dwyane Wade, not LeBron. It was about you putting the likes of Kobe and Durant a tier below Howard and Wade. That's where your post went. We can look at all the stats we want. We can make opinionated claims based on what we watch in games. That's all good and well. It's just my opinion that your claim that Howard and Wade are in the next group below LeBron and above the likes of Kobe and Durant is short-sighted as it pertains to the impact Kobe and Durant have in games for their respective teams.I never said they were. I just said the only talent they have at LBJ's level is scoring. And a put-back dunk is, for all effects, a shot created by him.
And you're right. The putback dunk in actuality is creating offense. I guess I just don't view it in the same way you create offense when you already have possession of the basketball and then you create offense. The putback dunk requires rebounding the ball. In any given game, Dwight may have 4 offensive rebounds, maybe 5 on a good night. Dwight will have somewhere upwards of 30+ touches on offense in a normal game. To me, creating offense in that situation shows a much more meaningful impact on the game.
Put Kobe with the Thunder and put Durant with the Lakers and we'll see whose ass is going to kicked out. Bryant is a great player but I hate it when people use this logic. Durant is just unfortunate right now not to have the same talent as Bryant.I like Kevin Durant but come on.
KD hasn't even won 1 game against Kobe...the day he "kicks Kobe's ass" is a looong way off.
I dont ignore stats, i just put more weight in advance statististics when dealing with a players efficiency.
Because I know how the formula works.
Wade isn't exactly a wing. Durant spent 7% of his time at the 4.
Yes it is.Should we adjust for height? If you're going to start using qualifiers, then when it comes to assists/play-making, should we adjust assists for position as well? Wade actually plays quite a bit of point guard for the Heat while Kevin Durant doesn't have playmaking responsibilities or responsibilities to initiate the offense like a point guard. Durant's rebounding rate is 10.8% and Wade's is 7.6%. You can adjust what you want. I don't think that's "about equal."
You're disagreeing with the numbers, not with me. 20ppg, extremely efficient and less than half of his shots are assisted.We'll have to just disagree about Dwight Howard's ability to create offense.
You're probably confusing aesthetics with shot-creation.
This "he's not perfect" argument isn't worth an answer unless you're saying that the other guys don't have holes in their games.I think there are tangible and disconcerting liabilities to his offensive game that really negatively affect the way he could impact the game. In games, his inability to be a dump-down post player who is fed the ball and consistently create a high percentage shot opportunity means he has some holes in his offensive game, liabilities. Now it's not such a big deal because he still scores and scores with a very good FG%. But if you're talking about the best players in the league and you put him in the company of LeBron and Wade ahead of guys like Kobe, Durant, and everyone else in the league, that's something I'd definitely look at to challenge.
How can you create a shot without already having possession? And an offensive rebounding doesn't equate to gaining a possession.And you're right. The putback dunk in actuality is creating offense. I guess I just don't view it in the same way you create offense when you already have possession of the basketball and then you create offense.
You may "not view it" in the same way but that's merely a bias in favour of more eye-pleasurable stuff than putbacks. As I've said, it's merely an aesthetic issue.
What?The putback dunk requires rebounding the ball. In any given game, Dwight may have 4 offensive rebounds, maybe 5 on a good night. Dwight will have somewhere upwards of 30+ touches on offense in a normal game. To me, creating offense in that situation shows a much more meaningful impact on the game.
!=
!=
Kobe has small hands.
So explain it to me because I'm curious.
And that's why Durant is a better rebounder.Wade isn't exactly a wing. Durant spent 7% of his time at the 4.
Disagree.Yes it is.
I'm disagreeing with his impact on offense comparative to other great players in the league. You're the one who made the claim that he's one of the top 3 players in the game, as it pertains to "impact" on the game. Well, his impact on offense compared to other great players in the league isn't on par. It's not aesthetics. It's his actual impact on offense. When's the last time a player who was considered a top 3 player in the league didn't even average 20 ppg? There are holes in his offensive game. In terms of big picture, it doesn't matter. If you're getting into a discussion of top 3 players in the game, I think it's absolutely a pertinent point.You're disagreeing with the numbers, not with me. 20ppg, extremely efficient and less than half of his shots are assisted.
You're probably confusing aesthetics with shot-creation.
No player is perfect. But earlier in this thread, you made the suggestion that after LeBron, Wade and Howard are in a tier above any other players in the league. Now, if we get into talking about the best players in the league, critical analysis of Dwight Howard's lack of polish and ability to score at an elite level absolutely enters the discussion.This "he's not perfect" argument isn't worth an answer unless you're saying that the other guys don't have holes in their games.
An offensive rebound isn't guaranteed on an offensive possession. In fact, on average, an offensive rebound occurs approximately once every 10 possessions. Basically, you can't count on getting an offensive rebound as a main way to create offense.How can you create a shot without already having possession? And an offensive rebounding doesn't equate to gaining a possession.
You may "not view it" in the same way but that's merely a bias in favour of more eye-pleasurable stuff than putbacks. As I've said, it's merely an aesthetic issue.
For Dwight Howard, since he'll get about 30+ touches a game out of offensive sets and about 4 offensive rebounds a game, the impact of the offensive rebound is much less than getting possession of the basketball in the low post and trying to create from that situation. Dwight Howard's inability to create consistently high percentage shot opportunities out of the low post is a liability that make a more significant impact in a negative way than the 4 or 5 offensive rebounds impact the game in a positive way.What?
I can give you a short explanation, but that's all: It's a boxscore based metric like PER with theoretically and regression derived linear weights. So boxscore componentes are weighted differently than PER or NBA EFf. or Winshares or etc. Buy the book or read Berri's blog if you want to know more, I don't even care about the metric (or any other).
Sure, he isn't as good offensively as other players. Howard is a very different player than the guards, for obvious reasons. What's exactly the point? I dont' think a player has to be a dominant scorer league-wide to be a top-3 player in the NBA, at least nowadays.And that's why Durant is a better rebounder.
Disagree.
I'm disagreeing with his impact on offense comparative to other great players in the league. You're the one who made the claim that he's one of the top 3 players in the game, as it pertains to "impact" on the game. Well, his impact on offense compared to other great players in the league isn't on par. It's not aesthetics. It's his actual impact on offense. When's the last time a player who was considered a top 3 player in the league didn't even average 20 ppg? There are holes in his offensive game. In terms of big picture, it doesn't matter. If you're getting into a discussion of top 3 players in the game, I think it's absolutely a pertinent point.
No player is perfect. But earlier in this thread, you made the suggestion that after LeBron, Wade and Howard are in a tier above any other players in the league. Now, if we get into talking about the best players in the league, critical analysis of Dwight Howard's lack of polish and ability to score at an elite level absolutely enters the discussion.
Great, but why are you bringing Jeff Foster to this discussion?An offensive rebound isn't guaranteed on an offensive possession. In fact, on average, an offensive rebound occurs approximately once every 10 possessions. Basically, you can't count on getting an offensive rebound as a main way to create offense.
Man, I can't use every number that I have available. Howard isnt' Olajuwon or something, but the idea that Howard can't create efficient scoring opportunities is just a myth. Strike a deal with Sinergy or, if you want to save some money, put 100 hours of film from Howard's game together and chart all his touches. You'll see your opinion will change in a hurry.For Dwight Howard, since he'll get about 30+ touches a game out of offensive sets and about 4 offensive rebounds a game, the impact of the offensive rebound is much less than getting possession of the basketball in the low post and trying to create from that situation. Dwight Howard's inability to create consistently high percentage shot opportunities out of the low post is a liability that make a more significant impact in a negative way than the 4 or 5 offensive rebounds impact the game in a positive way.
Why would you bring up "wins produced" and even tell me to look at "wins produced" and when I ask for you to provide a link or explanation, you can't provide a link and you give a vague explanation that tells me basically nothing about the stat?
Why did you tell me to look at wins produced in the first place if that's the case?
LOL rolling stone. Is Sports Illustrated going to do a piece on why Drake is better than Kanye West. WTF is this
I thought I explained why: to make the point why bringing up PER or Winshare is a futile exercise. It depends on the weights. Those metrics mean as much as the weights you're using. None of them can teal you nearly as much as the stats one can find on ESPN or basketball-reference.
The link was provided by duncan228.
Here's some more links anyway:
http://www.wagesofwins.com/
http://www.amazon.com/Wages-Wins-Mea.../dp/0804758441
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