And what stat can you find that shows how many times Caron Butler would turn the ball over, commit a stupid overreaction foul five seconds later, then argue with the ref until he gets T'd up? All while the Mavs were in the middle of a run, which just got killed. How many times has Caron done that? Cuz Josh did like that all the ing time.
Where's the stat where Caron walks up and down the court pouting because he hasn't been coddled enough? Or the stat showing how often the team is in a huddle listening to the coach and Caron is watching the funny video on the big screen instead, making it obvious to the team that he could give a less about the game.
Show me those stats and I'll concede they have a similar effect on the court. Numbers don't tell the whole story of what goes on. The way his teammates react to his behavior on the court must be factored in.
Butler has indeed been a pro, especially in his comments after being benched on game 3...
That said, he's a guy that can easily let a good performance or two get to his head and start chucking up a storm. Happened in LA, happened in DC, will most likely happen in Dallas.
The thing is, outside of his shot and the occasional highlight dunk, the guy is pretty average. I would say his biggest drawback is a fairly low basketball IQ.
If you can get a solid piece for him, you do it...
To me, talent-wise, Howard >>>> Butler...
That said, Howard made it clear he didn't give a about his team since basically '07... So you have to move a guy like that...
Here's your stat:
Butler - 11% turnover rate with a 23% usage rate
Howard - 10% turnover rate with a 25% usage rate
Facts are facts: Howard took better care of the ball than Butler does. He turned it over less while handling the ball more. So Josh "doing like that all the ing time" occurred less than Butler turning it over even though he was trying his hardest and having his head screwed on straight. I'd rather have Butler, but the upgrade he has provided over Howard has been marginal at best.
It pains me to say it, but on this aspect of the trade, Hollinger was right. About the biggest tangible benefit of Butler vis a vis Howard was a better locker room. It hasn't translated into much more wing production. Josh Howard would still be a Mav if he gave them what he did from 2005-2008. He could be a raging asshole for all they care as long as the production was the same. It wasn't. Butler being a nicer guy doesn't make him anything more than a slightly better player than Howard at this point.
Where's the stat that shows Butler making about 3 or 4 pumpfakes 18-20 feet from the rim and then line-driving the ball at the basket for a brick? He's shooting 39% from the floor in this series and taking away possessions from a guy shooting 54%.Where's the stat where Caron walks up and down the court pouting because he hasn't been coddled enough? Or the stat showing how often the team is in a huddle listening to the coach and Caron is watching the funny video on the big screen instead, making it obvious to the team that he could give a less about the game.
Caron Butler, shooting the Mavs in the foot
By Dan Devine
Okay fine, you're right Mr. "Spurs in 6 is the most pessimistic, overly cynical prediction". Let's ship Caron Butler the out of town. Sign Josh back after the season's over. Watch the whole team crumble, watch Dirk quit on the team halfway through the season again, watch another scramble for another midseason trade. Have fun!
IMO the fact Caron Butler has had to play out of position is a big reason for his inefficiencies. If Dallas were to bring in a legit 2 guard and move Butler back to three so he isn't trying to create for himself so much, he plays a lot better.
Josh Howard plays like ass in the New Orleans series, but that can be excused. Keep giving him chance after chance after chance after chance. Even if he's a wad in the locker room and doesn't care about winning.
Caron Buler works his ass off, acts right, and gets 1/4 a season and plays like ass in one playoff series, but that got needs to go right now. Cuz he doesn't like Gilbert ing Arenas.
Thanks Mr. "Nuggets and Mavs are better than the Lakers" and "Gerald Green would be a productive NBA player if only another team gave him a chance after his previous four gave up on him."
Depends on what we get for him.Let's ship Caron Butler the out of town.
Sarcastic Strawman duly noted.Sign Josh back after the season's over
Let's see what Dampier/Butler fetches us. That's $10 million in obligations a club is taking on, while the Mavs would be getting back $23 million worth of talent. I have no prob with Butler as a #3 option, but expecting him to be a #2 is a waste of time.Watch the whole team crumble, watch Dirk quit on the team halfway through the season again, watch another scramble for another midseason trade. Have fun!
Hence a thread en led "Get rid of this guy Cuban"
He has a $10 million expiring contract. If we get that elusive 2-guard and we can slide Caron down to #3 in the pecking order, then great. I hope he's a Mav next year. But if we have to part with him to get that 2-guard, I wouldn't hesitate. This is nothing personal against Caron.
If the Mavs are thinking "Caron had 1/3 of a season with us and just needs to get a training camp with Kidd and the boys under his belt, and then he can be our #2 guy," then blegh....
Did that thread le rub you the wrong way?
Well if it means you're going to waffle and now say it would be great to still have Caron on the team, then I supposed it's just par for the course.
J-Ho sucks.
No, he's awesome. Should have gotten a 14th chance, tbh. We wouldn't be in this godawful Caron Butler mess if cooler heads had prevailed a week before the trade deadline.
That thread le is based on the assumption that Caron Butler can be a #2 option for a contending team. He can't.
Josh was on 103.3 espn today. When asked about a return to Dallas, he said "anythings possible"
I lost conciseness for a sec and almost crashed.
Misleading stats. Howard has been with the team since 2003. Butler has been here for a couple months. Completely unfair "factual" comparison.
It's really unfortunate that Howard didn't have a better at ude, because he is clearly more talented and gifted than Butler. If the Mavs had the 2005-2007 version of Howard, Mavs would be in the Spurs position instead (3-1)
So Butler needs a training camp under his belt before you'll accept any criticism of his game?
Criticizing his game is one thing. Claiming he needs to be dumped after 20 games and one bad series is ridiculous. Especially considering how long you stuck behind Josh Howard.
He must not be getting the same discounts from his dealers in DC.
Actually I'm quite willing to be critical of his game, and even though it was dumb to sit him for an entire second half of game 3, he was playing like a complete load of elephant ass already and deserved it too. I'm just saying that before saying we should just get rid of him, he needs at least a fair chance to get integrated into the system. Same for Haywood (who has REALLY pissed me off). He played 10x better at Washington, then comes here and suddenly looks lost and is letting Dampier take the starting spot. Truth is, they both need time to fit in.
Butler has his flaws, but at least he truly seems dedicated and to be trying to help this team succeed, whereas with Howard, no one had a clue what the was going through his head all season (or the past couple years actually)
Caron Butler plays terrible and he's gotta go. Get rid of this guy Cuban.
Josh Howard plays terrible and there's no way you trade him for Gerald Wallace cuz that's a lateral move.
Huh?
My bottom line is this: The Mavs need to look elsewhere for a #2 option because he is not currently on this roster. I think it will take Roddy another 1-2 years to get to that point. That's time the Mavs don't have. And by all means the Mavs should be aggressive in seeing what they can get for Butler's expiring contract.
This is not because I dislike Butler or don't think he's been given a chance. I simply don't see him as that much better than what he's shown, and that's a #3 option. I don't want the Mavs doing diddly this summer and then having Donnie spout off at the beginning of November stuff like "Well, Caron's gotten a full training camp with Kidd and he can be that second All Star to play alongside Dirk..." etc.
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