Gulf Oil Spill - Going From Bad to Catastrophic!

[boutons_deux]

More input on how our wonderful, trustworthy, venal corporations us, their employees, and the environment over:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...37,print.story

[RandomGuy]

the “total cost burden is unlikely to arrive in a single instant — much of the liability will be litigated and paid out over time,” Mr. Book said.

Probably the most important sentence in that story.

Given that BP's yearly profit, before dividends, is likely to approach 20bn this year, before cleanup/claims costs, BP simply has to avoid paying it all out in a single year.

It would be highly unreasonable to pay everything out in one year, not to mention logicistically not very feasible.

Talk of seizing BP's assets is foolish and short-sighted. This company has the ability to pay as long as we don't do something stupid and expect them to pay all at once.

Let them pay about 1Bn per month into an escrow account managed by a competant fund manager, and distribute the funds for claims/costs at a slightly lower rate to allow some capital to build up.

This is essentially the business model of an insurance company, so there is no shortage of people with expertise to run it.

[boutons_deux]

BP hiding evidence of damage, knowing the financial penalties will be based on damages

Expert suggests BP is hiding oiled animal carcasses

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0615/exp...mal-carcasses/

[boutons_deux]

BP hiding filming and reporting of the disaster, using mercenaries


BP hires private security contractors to guard ‘black water’


http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0615/bp-...-oily-beaches/

[RandomGuy]

BP hiding evidence of damage, knowing the financial penalties will be based on damages

Expert suggests BP is hiding oiled animal carcasses

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0615/exp...mal-carcasses/

"Turtle watch volunteers who walk the beaches consistently every morning at 6:00 a.m., they're saying the carcasses are disappearing," Ott told host Keith Olbermann. "People who walk the beaches at night, they've seen little baby dolphins wash up dead, flashlights, people descend out of nowhere, carcass gone in 15 minutes

This is not evidence of BP "hiding damage" that is evidence that someone is cleaning up oily carcasses.

If your goal is to limit damage caused by oil, would you then try to clean up oily carcasses?

[boutons_deux]

The goal would to hide evidence of damage, not limit the damage.

Why decapitate the carcasses?

[Cry Havoc]

The primary problems have nothing to do with geology or the study of petroleum. You see, oil is so much lighter than water, that there is about a 350 PSI difference between oil and sea water at that depth. It gets worse. I forget how far the well is tapped under the sea bed, but the pressure of the ocean floor over the oil, and extra depth, makes the pressure rather extreme. If I recall correctly, the oil pocket is around 18000 ft. This 350 PSI difference now becomes about 1200 PSI for just the difference between oil and water. However, only the fort 5000 or so feet are sea water. The remaining almost 13000 feet is sea floor, at a greater density than sea water. We are now talking of at least 2000 PSI differential pressure. This is how I understand the sciences. I have been told the pressure is actually about 3000 PSI.

Now tell me. Just how is normal petroleum sciences going to deal with deep underwater problems?

Thanks for the completely unnecessarily aggressive response.

I guess I know I've made an impact on the Political Forum when I'm randomly musing about a situation and WC feels the need to attack me for it.

I wonder if a very large suction pile would work?

You want them to put Sasha Vujacic at the bottom of the ocean?

[jack sommerset]

LOL @ Cry Havoc saying WC is attacking him! Pussy.

[DarrinS]

You want them to put Sasha Vujacic at the bottom of the ocean?

[Cry Havoc]

LOL @ Cry Havoc saying WC is attacking him! Pussy.

Clearly I'm really broken up about it.

[Sportcamper]

The spill was Catastrophic from day one...Will take over 100 years to clean this mess up...Go Big Oil...

[Wild Cobra]

I haven't the foggiest. Please advise us, profe.

That's my point. There is a very small group of people who can address the problem at the sea floor.

Weren't they already supposed to have a plan for worst-case contingencies, or did that get waived too?

I don't know.

What I don't understand is why there was no backup to the pick off hydraulics. That was their only safety for this level of damage and it failed to work. For all that BP did wrong, they were probably not worried because this devise was suppose to work. If it didn't fail, we wouldn't have these problems. That's why i say part of the responsibility is on the manufacturer of this device.

[Wild Cobra]

Thanks for the completely unnecessarily aggressive response.

I guess I know I've made an impact on the Political Forum when I'm randomly musing about a situation and WC feels the need to attack me for it.

Sorry, I did mean to respond to Manny's post.

[boutons_deux]

# The New York Times

June 15, 2010
Oil Executives Tell Committee That BP Spill Is an Aberration
By JOHN M. BRODER

WASHINGTON — The chief executives of the world’s largest oil companies faced a Congressional panel of inquisitors on Tuesday and tried to cast the BP spill as a rare event that their companies were not likely to repeat.

In their remarks, the executives said that continued offshore exploration and drilling were essential to American oil and gas supplies and to the health of their industry.

In a moment of Capitol Hill drama reminiscent of the grilling of tobacco industry executives in 1994, the oil company officials were summoned by the House Energy and Commerce Committee to justify offshore drilling and explain how their safety practices differed from BP’s.

Rex W. Tillerson, chairman of Exxon Mobil, testified that if companies follow proper well design, drilling, maintenance and training procedures accidents like Deepwater Horizon explosion on April 20 “should not occur,” implying that BP had failed to do so.

John S. Watson, chief executive of Chevron, also pointed an implicit finger at BP, saying that every Chevron employee and contractor has the authority to stop work immediately if they see anything unsafe. Congressional investigators charge that BP went ahead with risky procedures even after repeated warnings from company workers and contract employees on the ill-fated rig.

“Our internal review confirmed what our regular audits have told us,” Mr. Watson testified. “Chevron’s deepwater drilling and well control practices are safe and environmentally sound.”

Lamar McKay, the president of BP America, would not say whether the company would place funds in an escrow account to handle future claims for economic and ecological damages because of the oil spill, as many in Congress and the administration are demanding.

“I cannot commit today one way or another to a fund,” Mr. McKay said in response to a question from Representative Fred Upton, Republican of Michigan, “We have said we’ll honor all legitimate claims and the full company stands behind that.”

President Obama is expected to raise the matter of an escrow fund when he meets with top BP executives at the White House on Wednesday.

Mr. McKay, did, however, issue a plea for forbearance from Congressional and executive branch officials, saying: “America’s economy, security and standard of living today significantly depend upon domestic oil and gas production. Reducing our energy production, absent a concurrent reduction in consumption, would shift additional jobs and dollars offshore and place millions of additional barrels per day into tanker ships that must traverse the world’s oceans.”

The executives appeared before the energy and environment subcommittee of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, chaired by Representative Edward J. Markey, Democrat of Massachusetts. He questioned the oil company representatives not only about safety procedures but about emergency planning, the use of dispersants and differences in regulations in other countries.

Representative Henry A. Waxman, chairman of the House committee, focused on the spill response plans of the five companies. They were prepared by an outside contractor and are virtually identical, Mr. Waxman said.

Each of the plans addresses a worst-case spill. BP’s plan says it can handled a spill of 250,000 barrels a day; Chevron and S say they can handle 200,000 barrels a day. The current estimate for the BP spill is about 30,000 barrels a day, and it is clear that the company’s plan was not adequate to deal with it.

Mr. Waxman said it is clear that the plans are “just paper exercises.”

“BP failed miserably when confronted with a real leak,” Mr. Waxman said, “and Exxon Mobil and the other companies would do no better.”

Mr. Markey prepared a series of questions about industry spending on research and alternative energy, and plans to expand offshore operations to the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic coasts.

“Now the other companies here today will contend that this was an isolated incident. They will say a similar disaster could never happen to them,” Mr. Markey said as the hearing opened. “And yet it is this kind of Blind Faith — which is ironically the name of an actual rig in the Gulf — that has led to this kind of disaster.”

Mr. Markey added: “In preparation for this hearing, the committee reviewed the oil spill safety response plans for all of the companies here today. What we found was that these five companies have response plans that are virtually identical. The plans cite identical response capabilities and tout identical ineffective equipment. In some cases, they use the exact same words. We found that all of these companies, not just BP, made the exact same assurances.”

Like BP, Mr. Markey said, three other companies include references to protecting walruses, which have not called the Gulf of Mexico home for three million years.

“Two other plans are such dead ringers for BP’s that they list a phone number for the same long-dead expert,” he said.

[Wild Cobra]

The spill was Catastrophic from day one...Will take over 100 years to clean this mess up...Go Big Oil...

How do you get 100 years?

If you are comparing it to something like the Exxon Valdez, then you would be wrong to do so. Temperature plays a big role in this.

[RandomGuy]

“Two other plans are such dead ringers for BP’s that they list a phone number for the same long-dead expert,[/B]” he said.

Copy, meet paste...

Seems like we need to use big, bad government to demand that the free market provide a better response plan.

It should alarm anyone that these companies have given so little response to high magnitude of loss/low probability events.

Prudent risk management seems to have been too much to ask. Time to stop asking and start compelling.

[RandomGuy]

How do you get 100 years?

If you are comparing it to something like the Exxon Valdez, then you would be wrong to do so. Temperature plays a big role in this.

There are still areas of coastline off Mexico where one can stick a knife into the ground and bring it up coated with tarry residue from the Ixtoc spill over 30 years ago. I don't think 100 years is too outside the pale.

You were right though. Comparing it to the Exxon Valdez is a wrong comparison to make.

This is much, much bigger.

[MannyIsGod]

The primary problems have nothing to do with geology or the study of petroleum. You see, oil is so much lighter than water, that there is about a 350 PSI difference between oil and sea water at that depth. It gets worse. I forget how far the well is tapped under the sea bed, but the pressure of the ocean floor over the oil, and extra depth, makes the pressure rather extreme. If I recall correctly, the oil pocket is around 18000 ft. This 350 PSI difference now becomes about 1200 PSI for just the difference between oil and water. However, only the fort 5000 or so feet are sea water. The remaining almost 13000 feet is sea floor, at a greater density than sea water. We are now talking of at least 2000 PSI differential pressure. This is how I understand the sciences. I have been told the pressure is actually about 3000 PSI.

Ok, wtf does that have to do with me trying to find out more about well behavior from the most qualified people around me?

Now tell me. Just how is normal petroleum sciences going to deal with deep underwater problems?

Now tell me, just when did I say it was?

You're so ing mind numbingly stupid sometimes that if I could reach through the computer you'd probably have several broken noses by now. God damn its like dealing with a ing re except re s usually understand their re ed.

[Wild Cobra]

Ok, wtf does that have to do with me trying to find out more about well behavior from the most qualified people around me?

Not much. i just don't think they will have much to offer unless they have specialized in deep sea oil.

Now tell me, just when did I say it was?

We all make certain assumptions in what we read. I seriously doubt you will find many that have studied much on the topic, or better yet, have any hands-on.

You're so ing mind numbingly stupid sometimes that if I could reach through the computer you'd probably have several broken noses by now. God damn its like dealing with a ing re except re s usually understand their re ed.

LOL... sounds like you're about to have a breakdown.

[Wild Cobra]

There are still areas of coastline off Mexico where one can stick a knife into the ground and bring it up coated with tarry residue from the Ixtoc spill over 30 years ago. I don't think 100 years is too outside the pale.

You were right though. Comparing it to the Exxon Valdez is a wrong comparison to make.

This is much, much bigger.

Well, we are lucky in the fact very little has made land.

Correct me if I'm wring, but our shores on the Gulf are normally losing sand to the sea, and normally gaining sand in Mexico. Once covered with new sand, it doesn't wash away.

That was only 160 ft. to the floor and took 10 months to contain.

[RandomGuy]

Well, we are lucky in the fact very little has made land.

Lucky so far, yes.

I doubt we will be quite so lucky over time.

[Wild Cobra]

Lucky so far, yes.

I doubt we will be quite so lucky over time.

hard to say. The normal gulf flow should keep us safe, unless we get some wild hurricanes.

[Sportcamper]

It is doubtful that anyone posting on this forum will live long enough to see this mess cleaned up…The fallout will remain for over 100 years just like other oil messes….

In the 60’s Malibu was pristine with sandy beaches & fishing that was incredible…… Huge Halibut, Bonita, Lobster, Crab, sometimes Salmon & if you went out past the pier on a day boat huge Red Snappers….Then that “MINOR” Santa Monica oil spill happened (1969 )…To this day you can walk the beach & get tar all over your feet & towel…

There are no more huge halibut or salmon or lobsters being caught off the beaches of So Cal…The stuff they call red snapper these days were a throw back fish in the 60’s…

The s fish & shrimp industries in the Gulf of Mexico will be in trouble for a long long time….Nobody will want to eat shrimp & oysters from the Gulf of Mexico…

This was all preventable…One shut off valve upstream from the pump…But Oil companies & politicians could care less…They don’t like to go outside & play I guess…

[DarrinS]

It is doubtful that anyone posting on this forum will live long enough to see this mess cleaned up…The fallout will remain for over 100 years just like other oil messes….

In the 60’s Malibu was pristine with sandy beaches & fishing that was incredible…… Huge Halibut, Bonita, Lobster, Crab, sometimes Salmon & if you went out past the pier on a day boat huge Red Snappers….Then that “MINOR” Santa Monica oil spill happened (1969 )…To this day you can walk the beach & get tar all over your feet & towel…

Gotta stop you right there. You ASSUME that the tar balls are leftovers from that spill. Fact is, that area (and most of sourthern Cal for that matter) has enormous amounts of natural seepage, both undersea and on land. Same thing along our Texas coast.

[RandomGuy]

It is doubtful that anyone posting on this forum will live long enough to see this mess cleaned up…The fallout will remain for over 100 years just like other oil messes….

In the 60’s Malibu was pristine with sandy beaches & fishing that was incredible…… Huge Halibut, Bonita, Lobster, Crab, sometimes Salmon & if you went out past the pier on a day boat huge Red Snappers….Then that “MINOR” Santa Monica oil spill happened (1969 )…To this day you can walk the beach & get tar all over your feet & towel…

There are no more huge halibut or salmon or lobsters being caught off the beaches of So Cal…The stuff they call red snapper these days were a throw back fish in the 60’s…

The s fish & shrimp industries in the Gulf of Mexico will be in trouble for a long long time….Nobody will want to eat shrimp & oysters from the Gulf of Mexico…

This was all preventable…One shut off valve upstream from the pump…But Oil companies & politicians could care less…They don’t like to go outside & play I guess…

Toxicity and overfishing are doing a number on fishing populations.

We are about 10-20 years from some severe ecosystem collapses.