Are you nuts? Duncan. It's not even debatable.
Duncan has four les as a #1 guy and never played with a guy as good as Kobe or Wade (although Parker/Manu is far from chopped liver). Shaq has three les as a #1 guy and one le as a #2 guy. He was traded twice and his former teams were glad to see him go. Duncan will retire a Spur. Duncan could guard the p'n'r too, something Shaq couldn't do. Duncan got every last ounce out of his talent and was an unselfish team player; Shaq is a massive underachiever to only have four championships and never hesitated to quit and throw his teammates under the bus whenever he didn't get his way.
At their apex I would have to say Shaq was a better player than Duncan, but Duncan unquestionably has had the better career, and was better for longer. If I could choose one to build around for the bulk of their prime, it would be Duncan.
No, but that's not the same as having a better career.
2000 Shaq > 2003 Duncan, but Duncan's career > Shaq's career.
Totally disagree here. Duncan in 2003 was a defensive monster.. Look at the D he played in the finals that year. Shaq could never defend like Tim..
I would go with Duncan for his superior defense. Duncan has 8 All defense first team selections and 5 second team selections to Shaq's 3 second team selections.
From watching games personally I would say he was superior defensively to Shaq. But also, tons of advanced stat guys such as Hollinger and some guys on apbr.org say Duncan was robbed of Defensive Player of the Year a few times.
Shaq could not be physically guarded. He was as unstoppable a force as you will ever see. We talk about 20/10 guys, Shaq at his peak was a 30/15 machine who wasn't a defensive liability like later on his career when he got fat and lazy. By the narrowest of margins, I'll take an apex Shaq over an apex Duncan.
Shaq was definitely a defensive force during his prime. He controlled the paint and controlled his man. Similarly to Tim, who defended the PnR better.
Shaq was better at blocking and altering shots in the paint
Tim was better at PnR defense
They were about equal on man defense IMO, both superb at it
Agree?
How do the two of them do if they switch teammates throughout the years?
Shaq but TD is definitely a better player
I say Duncan, no contest.
Even on the offensive end, I would still take Duncan. Duncan shot free throws better and didn't have a defensive tactic named after him.
Shaq was an unstoppable force until that tactic came out. There really isn't a tactic to use against Duncan. Just hope he screws up and/or misses. If you foul him, he can still knock down free throws at a decent enough clip.
Duncan.
Duncan
Duncan natch.
You don't need advanced stats to know Tim was a defensive beast.
From 2000-2004 there was nobody better than The Diesel. However, if we're talking careers it's Duncan. Timmy has been dominant from day 1 and hasn't dropped off at all, while Shaq's career started to decline after he won the ship in Miami. Duncan has also won 4 as the #1, Shaq has 3. Any rings Shaq wins at this point in his career don't count.
The argument is still pretty close, because Shaq was averaging near 30 in his days with Orlando, but he didn't win a le til his 7th year so that number is a little diminished
shaq's career has more accolades
tim is a better player
Bill Russell would get worked by any of those other 5 big men. He's a rich man's Ben Wallace.
No, they were NEVER close defensively. Primarily because Shaq was never willing to commit to playing defense with effort. He had the tools and the skills, but he was NEVER willing to put the sweat in; that's why his PnR defense became so poor. He just wasn't willing to sweat defensively.
Offensively Shaq > Duncan
Defensively Duncan > Shaq
Picking between them to make a team, I pick Duncan for character and leadership reasons.
On your question, If the teammates were switched, I suspect that the Lakers would do better than they did. The clash of egos which always hampered (and finally killed) the Shaq-Kobe pairing would have been either eliminated or at least much reduced...
On talent that Lakers team should have had 5 or so; much like the current Heat has huge expectations. When you can put 2 of the top 5 players in the league on the floor at one time, you should just win... Also, there wouldn't have been an interregnum when Kobe didn't have a top 5 big to do the dirty, necessary, post work.
He played that D against the likes of Jason Collins and Kenyon Martin. Shaq was just as wet against the Nets a year earlier.
peak Shaq (2000) > peak Duncan (2003), but not nearly enough to make it so Shaq > Duncan career wise. Shaq could have maybe been the best player of all time if he stayed in shape and worked hard, but because he didn't he had a short lived prime from 2000-2003. We all saw he could even be a force in his mid 30's when he was in shape on the Suns, god only knows what he woulda been like if he was in that shape his entire career.
+1
I've never seen anybody so unstoppable from 2000-2004. Unless you're name was Vlade Divac or Arvydas Sabonis you would literally have to double him or you're getting teabagged
God only knows how dominant he woulda been if he was in the kind of shape he was in Phoenix for his entire career. He put up 18 points at 60% shooting and 8 boards at age 36 because Phoenix's staff kept him healthy and in shape, he might have even had a season where he averaged close to 40 points if he was in that shape during his prime.
Shaq has had a better career since he made more money in endorsements.
As a Suns fan i feel like you probably have a better understanding to the question more than others.
Was it more of Phoenix's staff keeping him in shape or him realizing that the end was near if he didn't start improving in that aspect?
I feel that the latter might be a little bit true because he took for granted his superior size advantage as evidenced by his ignorance to his poor free throw shooting. If he would've worked on that in the offseason he would've been truly unstoppable but instead he just scoffed the idea
I thought phoenix had an astounding medical staff. They rebuilt dice didnt they?
I give it to Duncan by a nose, mainly because he's been a much better citizen and teammate over his career -- their actual production has been pretty evenly matched, IMO. With the current trajectories of their careers, this margin should only widen over the next several years.
Given how he immediately got fat and injury prone again once he went to Cleveland (in a contract year), I'd say it was Phoenix's training staff and the fact they produced such immediate results helping his conditioning that he was willing to work with a staff that obviously knew what it was doing.
He even said that supposedly he had extremely weak gluts for someone his size and Phoenix's training staff had him work on strengthening his gluts which led to taking pressure off his back and him being able to move a lot better.
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