Reply With Quote
We're not talking about 7 less points on 6% less FG. I was replying to another post saying that Kobe needed 20 more attempts. But keep hating for no reason...
You need to do some research before spewing .
Pippen started 56 of 76 games and averaged 14.4-6-3.5 that season
Grant started 79 of 79 games and averaged 12-8.6 that season.
Doug Collins played Jordan at PG and Jordan had his best statistical season ever but the Bulls won less games than in 1988. Collins was fired at the end of the season and Phil Jackson took over and put the ball in Scottie's hands, the Bulls won 55 games in 1990.
Last edited by Nahtanoj; 09-04-2010 at 10:13 PM.
We're not talking about 7 less points on 6% less FG. I was replying to another post saying that Kobe needed 20 more attempts. But keep hating for no reason...
you already posted that youtube video, and Jordan didn't guard him once that entire half. Plus MJ was 40 at the time.
What an ass... Sounds like you need to do a littel research of your own before spewing .
Pippen was hurt the first 8 games of the year so he didn't play in this game. His first game was 2 nights later on Nov 18th.
Here's your proof that Pippen didn't play:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...811160PHI.html
He was not the player he became a couple years later yet. This was Jordan going it alone, playing his finest ball pre-Pippen the All Star. Not forcing shots over double teams, having his coach still playing him when his team up 15-18 with 5 minutes left, or getting bailed out by refs with 20 FTs like Kobe did with his 81.
Like I said, IN THAT GAME Sellers and Vincent were the 2nd and 3rd leading scorers with 12 and 11 points. OK, you can resume suckin Kobe's balls.
Oh so now it is 'pre-Pippen the All Star'. I like how you change your words.. lmao
No one not named lakaluva (and 1 or 2 Mavfans) is sucking Kobe's balls in this thread, I suggest you look back at the whole thread and read your and my posts. Seem like you're intent on hating Bryant though. Is it something he did it you? Why you so mad? You want to talk about it?
Last edited by Nahtanoj; 09-05-2010 at 12:58 AM.
Jordan stopped guarding the best offensive player on the other team (atleast for the first three quarters) when Pippen became an elite defensive player anyway... Phil Jackson did that with him in Chicago and then later with Bryant in LA. Poor Jerry Stackhouse and a bunch of others had to guard Bryant that game in the 42 PT first half, both never got to guard each other because the game was already over before it even begun.
Plus Jordan's defense wasn't as good in his 2nd comeback, he was 39/40 years young so it is understandable. He had his moments though (block on Mercer), but the game had evolved, guards/forwards are bigger in this era e.g. Paul Pierce backing him down shooting jumpers over him or players shooting the three in his face (even a prime Jordan seldom defends the 3PT shot, he has a philosophy of running by the shooter to distract them and leak out to other end), this philosophy does not work in the 2000s - the average player has decent shooting range in this era.
That being said, Jordan in his prime (1987-1993), is still the greatest perimeter defender I've ever seen.
It's the same as 2003 Duncan who carried that team to a le. People say "Oh he had Manu and Parker" but neglect the fact that Manu was a rookie and Parker was still very young & inconsistent. Both were nowhere near the players they became for the 05-08 years, so just them being on the 03 team wasn't enough to help Duncan. Same with Jordan in the late 80's with Pippen and HoGrant.
And I don't have anything against Kobe except that he is selfish. He's still one of the Top 10players of all time, up there with Duncan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, etc. But Jordan is in a class by himself and to try to claim Kobe (or even Duncan) is in the same class or better than Jordan is assinine.
Where did "I" make this claim in this thread?
Though his last assist this past June was a doozy.
tee, hee.
People talk about migits but look at a lot of the big men Wilt ended up facing
Walter Dukes (7'0", 220 lbs.)
Swede Halbrook (7'3, 235 lbs.)
Tom Boerwinkle (7'0", 265 lbs.)
Bob Lanier (6'11", 265 lbs.)
Darrall Imhoff (6'11", 220 lbs.)
Otto Moore (6'11", 210 lbs.)
Sam Lacey (6'10", 235 lbs.)
George Johnson (6'11", 245 lbs.)
Paul Ruffner (6'10", 230 lbs.)
Cunningham (6'10", 245 lbs.)
Walt Bellamy (6'11", 225 lbs.)
Leroy Ellis (6'10", 210 lbs.)
Nate Thurmond (6'11", 235 lbs.)
Mel Counts (7'0", 235 lbs.)
Nate Bowman (6'10", 230 lbs.)
Clyde Lee (6'10", 210 lbs.)
Walt Wesley (6'11", 230 lbs.)
Henry Akin (6'10", 225 lbs.)
Hank Finkel (7'0", 240 lbs.)
Lew Alcindor aka Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (7'2", 225 lbs.)
Neal Walk (6'10", 220 lbs.)
Elmore Smith (7'0", 250 lbs.)
Jim McDaniels (6'11", 230 lbs.)
LaRue Martin (6'11", 215 lbs.)
Tom Riker (6'10", 225 lbs.)
Conrad Dierking (6'9", 225 lbs.)
Johnny “Red” Kerr (6'9", 230 lbs.)
Bob Pet (6'9", 220 lbs.)
Spencer Haywood (6'9", 230 lbs.)
Rick Roberson (6'9", 230 lbs.)
Luke Jackson (6'9", 240 lbs.)
Duke Hogue (6'9," 240 lbs.)
Zelmo Beaty (6'9", 230 lbs.)
Len Chappell (6'9", 240 lbs.)
Elvin Hayes (6'9", 235 lbs.)
Hub Reed (6'9", 220 lbs.)
And what the does height even have to do with anything? Look at most of the rebounding leaders over the past two decades. Most of them weren't even 7 feet.
1992 Dennis Rodman Det 82 1530 18.7
1993 Dennis Rodman Det 62 1232 18.3
1994 Dennis Rodman SA 79 1132 17.3
1995 Dennis Rodman SA 49 823 16.8
1996 Dennis Rodman Chi 64 952 14.9
1997 Dennis Rodman Chi 55 883 16.1
1998 Dennis Rodman Chi 80 1201 15.0
1999 Chris Webber Sac. 42 545 13.0
2000 Dikembe Mutombo Atl 82 1157 14.1
2001 Dikembe Mutombo Atl-Phi 75 1015 13.5
2002 Ben Wallace Det 80 1039 13.0
2003 Ben Wallace Det 73 1126 15.4
2004 Kevin Garnett Min 82 1139 13.9
2005 Kevin Garnett Min 82 1108 13.5
2006 Kevin Garnett Min 76 966 12.7
2007 Kevin Garnett Min 76 973 12.8
2008 Dwight Howard ORL 82 1157 14.3
2009 Dwight Howard ORL 79 1093 13.8
2010 Dwight Howard ORL 82 1082 13.2
Rodman was 6'7
Wallace was 6'9
KG was 6'11
Dwight was 6'10
Webber was 6'9
So what the does height have to do with how good a big man is that you played against?
The guy guarding him for half the game Darrall Imhoff was 6'10 which is the same height as modern day Dwight.
And the other guy guarding him was Dave Budd who was 6'7 the same height as Dennis Rodman.
Actually the average height for centers in the 60's was 6'10
Son we all know Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace was closer to 6-6 and Kevin Garnett is 7-1. But you're comparing modern era basketball to 1962. Different game son, lanes were narrower back then.Rodman was 6'7
Wallace was 6'9
KG was 6'11
Dwight was 6'10
Webber was 6'9
So what the does height have to do with how good a big man is that you played against?
The guy guarding him for half the game Darrall Imhoff was 6'10 which is the same height as modern day Dwight.
And the other guy guarding him was Dave Budd who was 6'7 the same height as Dennis Rodman.
You can debate about the defenses all you want. That's a whole different topic but the Myth that Russel and Wilt played against midgets is false.
You didn't, luva did. You decided to butt in telling me to do some research before "spweing " in an attempt to call me out on a technicality.
They did. Wilt and Russell are the two most overrated players in NBA history. In today's NBA, Bill Russell is a rich man's Ben Wallace. The cuckolds they went up against like Dolph Schayes and George Mikan would struggle to maintain careers in today's NBADL.
You do realize George Mikan retired before Russel and Wilt entered the league?
And you talk about Wilt and Russel being overrated players yet Wilt played equally against Kareem in their head to head matchups when Wilt was 11 years older then Kareem and past his prime and bothered by injuries.
For the one year Kareem was in the 60's he had the lowest fg% of his career. Then His average fg % for all his seasons in the 70's were much higher( Since you seem to believe they were better defensivly) then his season in the 60's. And then look at what Kareem when he entred the 80's defenses his average fg% was significantly higher then his one season in the 60's and all his seasons in the 70's.
So as Kareem moved from the 60's ->70's-> 80's
His average fg % continued to increase even though he was getting older what does that tell you about the defense.
Yep I forgot players like Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman and Barkley just suck.
And you do realize Bill Russel was listed between 6'9 and 6'10 and the averge height for centers in that era was 6'10.
So how was he playing against midgits?
It tells me that you naturally have a higher FG% when you're more selective with your shots and playing with the best PG of all time. But yeah, I'm sure Kareem having a higher FG% in the 80's when he was past his prime was because defenses in the 70's were so much better. No way it coulda been because he had a reduced role and he played with Magic JohnsonHis average fg % continued to increase even though he was getting older what does that tell you about the defense.
I know since you're a Jazz fan you're gonna hate this, but I attribute it less to height and more to the fact that prior to Texas Western's 1966 le basketball was a white man's sport. Once the Wilts and Russells of the league could no longer dominate a bunch of unathletic honkies, and there were actually a good amount of players in the league who didn't have gaping physical disadvantages to them, they actually had to develop offense other than point blank layups.
Kareem's two best statistical years offensively were his 2nd and 3rd seasons, in the early 70's. Averaging 31 points at 58% shooting is better offensively than 22 points at 59% shooting, especially when you also won MVP + finals MVP the same year. It's hilarious to try to argue 80's Kareem > 70's Kareem offensively. In the early 70's Kareem carried a team to a championship and averaged around 30 PPG every year. In the 80's Kareem was the 2nd option on his team and closed games out in the 4th quarter in the event Magic and co. hadn't already run them off the court.
I've seen a lot of people think that trying to talk up Wilt and Russell makes them sound like extremely knowledgeable basketball purists, and I've seen them use plenty of arguments, I'll give this one a 3/10.
As far as 1 on 1 low post defenders who could guard Wilt or something, yeah, none of those 3 were elite low post defenders. Ben Wallace's defensive strengths are weakside help/pick and roll, there's a reason Detroit didn't became a truly great defensive team till they got a legit 7 foot post defender playing next to Wallace so he could focus on his strengths and not have to guard 7 footers.
I think we all know the story behind Barkley's defense so I won't even mention that, and Rodman was also more a help defender than a low post defender.
^QuotedAs far as defense is concerned, I do get a laugh out of those that claim that it was non-existant in the 60's. If anything, the lanes were much more compacted, and while everyone points to Wilt's FGAs, the fact was, it was still a much more perimeter-oriented game. Look at the scorers of the 60's. West and Oscar had multiple 30+ ppg seasons. Dave Bing led the NBA one year. Rick Barry was more of a balanced scorer, but he was a very good outside shooter. Baylor was more of a slasher, but he had a decent mid-range game.
The only real scorers from the center position were Wilt and Bellamy. Reed was basically a PF for most of the 60's, and even when he was a center he was more of a 15 ft shooter. Lucas was a PF for most of his career (and an emergency center later in his career), but he had unbelieveable range. Thurmond was a decent offensive player, but I really wouldn't call him a scorer. And Russell, despite what many believe here, was actually a very accomplished offensive player. He generally played on teams with multiple scoring options, so he was seldom asked to lead the team in scoring (although he did just that in the 65-66 Finals, at 23.6 ppg.) And, if you take league average into consideration, he was a better offensive player than his overall numbers imply.
Near the end of the 60's and into the early 70's, the center position became a mixture of post players and 15 ft shooter, with some players being adept at both. Elvin Hayes was a center early in his career, and was an excellent jump shooter. Bob Lanier was good a example of being a post up and a pop-out shooter. Kareem may have been the most skilled offensive center of all-time. Gilmore was a post-up center, who seldom took a bad shot. Cowens was good at both types, and he ran the floor so well. Later Walton came along and he was as good an all-around center that I have ever seen. Unseld was not a great offensive player, but he was a banger with decent skills and amazing outlet passing ability.
But, once again, I have always found it mystifying that Reed came into the league with a .432 FG%. Thurmond at .395. Havlicek had several awful FG% seasons in the early to mid-60's, and then became a much better shooter in the 70's. Same with Barry, Hayes, Bellamy, and other's. And many players shot much better in the LATE 60's.
As far as moving from the 70's into the 80's...maybe someone here can explain the EXPLOSION in FG% in the decade of the 80's. Even with the advent of the 3pt shot, the 80's STILL basically had seasons from .480 to .490 almost every year. There were TEAMS shooting over 50%. Even BAD teams were shooting over 50% (e.g., 84-85 Kansas City shooting .504, and going 31-51.) Players like Dantley, (who was NEVER a great outside shooter(, was shooting a high of .520 in the 70's (and .510 and .512) suddenly shooting .570, .576, and .580. Gilmore went from an NBA high of .575 in the 70's to four seasons over .600, including .652 and .670...all at past his peak.
Kareem was the clincher for me. In his physical PRIME, he had a HIGH of .579 in the 70's, but he also had seasons of .539, .529, .518, and .513. In the decade of the 80's, and in the first EIGHT years of that decade, his LOW was .564, and he had FOUR seasons equal to, or better, than his BEST season in the 70's. He had one year at .604, and another at .599 (at age 37!) Granted, he was paired with Magic, who made ALL of his teammates more efficient, but it is still pretty amazing that, well after his peak (just look at his anemic rebounding numbers in the 80's), that he could still score 25 ppg on nearly 60% shooting for the most of the decade.
He is, of course, a good example of DEFENSE, too. I have mentioned it before, but Thurmond and Wilt held him WAY below his CAREER FG%. And Wilt basically played him one-on-one, too. Both Nate and Wilt were well past their primes, while Kareem was in his statistical prime. Thurmond held him to back-to-back playoff series of .405 and .428 shooting...and yet, Kareem was pouring in over 40 ppg over a three game set against none other than Hakeem in the mid-80's, and as the oldest player in the league.
Last edited by Purch; 09-05-2010 at 12:47 PM.
OK thanks for posting an essay I don't feel like reading. Do you have any thoughts of your own Tacker?
Shortest " Essay" I've ever seen
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
