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ok.
Shaq was more dominant then half the players you listed so I don't see where you're going with this
The one hit wonder Detroit fan club strikes again...
ok.
Shaq was more dominant then half the players you listed so I don't see where you're going with this
Last edited by Purch; 09-26-2010 at 07:32 PM.
just the dumbass line "he has one mvp in weak era" should let you know about this thread..... if that's the case, Shaquille is only top twenty. He has only one MVP in this era. And it is a crime that Shaquille only has one.
yes, the athlete with the 5th worst Q rating is very marketable ...that Colorado thing was a figment of everyone's imagination as well.
I'm not hating or anything, but Kobe's lack of individual awards puts him outside of the Top of All-Time. Also, him being Shaq's Robin will always come out in the discussion no matter what.
Still a of a player, but anybody knows how he has become overrated over the years.
Kobe: 5
Duncan: 4
Take it, & like it.
Lack of individual awards?I'm not hating or anything, but Kobe's lack of individual awards puts him outside of the Top of All-Time. Also, him being Shaq's Robin will always come out in the discussion no matter what.
Still a of a player, but anybody knows how he has become overrated over the years.
1 MVP
2 Finals MVP
12 all star appearances (3 ASG MVP)
8 first team NBA, 2 second team NBA, 2 third team NBA
8 first team all defense, 2 second team all defense
2 scoring les
Lack of individual awards compared to whom? Michael, Magic, Kareem, and Bird? Well, yeah. But there aren't that many players in NBA history that can match Kobe's resume as an individual player.
There are only 12 other players (edit: 11 players but there was no Finals MVP award when Bill Russell was winning les so I'll count him as one even though he doesn't officially have one) that have both a League MVP and a Finals MVP. If you're talking about Kobe breaking into the top 5, I can understand his lack of multiple League MVPs could give some people pause. But if you're talking about keeping Kobe out of the top all time, what is the top? Top 10? Top 20? Because Kobe's certainly in the top 20 and is arguably in the top 10, at least in the conversation.
Last edited by JamStone; 09-27-2010 at 08:42 AM.
Well, to me Kobe Bryant is in the top 10, and I do use both league MVPs and final MVPs as part of the criteria and those who have both awards rank higher on my lists. For players like Russell, I would assume he would have has a finals MVP (hey, he has that award named after him and he has 5 league MVPs.)
These players include the likes of the following, not in order, and of course players who have both awards in multiples, I tend to rank them higher, of course it is not a deciding factor, considering peak play and longevity and era. The following is not in order and the list comes whenever the name pops into my mind.
1. Michael Jordan (5 MVPs, 6 finals MVPs)
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (6 MVPs, 2 finals MVPs)
3. Larry Bird (3 MVPs, 2 finals MVPs)
4. Magic Johnson (3 MVPs, 3 finals MVPs)
5. Tim Duncan (2 MVPs, 3 finals MVPs)
6. Bill Russell (5 MVPs, finals MVP was not given in his era)
7. Wit Chamberlain (4 MVPs, 1 finals MVP, with another not given in 1967 because of era)
8. George Mikan (This is weird, you got to remember that in his era, MVPs and finals MVPs were both non-existent in that era, he was a 5 time all-NBA first team and he should have a couple of MVPs and finals MVPs had there been those existing)
8. Hakeem Olajuwon (1 MVP, 2 finals MVPs)
9. Moses Malone (1 MVP, 3 finals MVPs)
10. Bob Pet (2 MVPs, finals MVP not in his era but should have one in 58)
11. Shaquille O'Neal (1 MVP, 3 finals MVPs)
12. Kobe Bryant (1 MVP, 2 finals MVPs)
13. Bill Walton (1 MVP, 1 finals MVPs
14. Willis Reed (1 MVP, 1 finals MVP)
15. Wes Unseld (1 MVP, 1 finals MVP)
After these top 15, I got question marks.
16. Bob Cousy (1 MVP, finals MVP not given in era, would he have a couple, I think maybe.)
17. Julius Erving (Would you count his career in the ABA if you were doing all-time rankings? If you would, The Doc would rank way higher on this list. 1 NBA MVP, 3 ABA MVPs, 2 playoff ABA MVPs)
These 17 players are the only prestigious players to have both awards (by my count). Not that they are my top 17.
I edited my post to include Bill Russell. I missed Wes Unseld.
Didn't include guys like Cousy (no guarantee he'd have won a Finals MVP over Russell on any of those Celtics teams), George Mikan (who certainly has an argument), or Julius Erving (I wouldn't be against adding him to the list).
The only guy I'd certainly add on the list is Wes Unseld. I just missed him.
Last edited by JamStone; 09-27-2010 at 09:24 AM.
is the butthurt commitee still reviewing the application?
^They're still trying to figure how to reverse #15 & #16.
I am trying to make a top 10 but am stuck on a top 20. My source is the Top NBA players at 50 years. I include this list, sorted by the years the players came into the league, and it appears at bottom of my post.
Back in the 1970's a top 10 list was pretty easy. Bob Pet and Hal Greer made it easily, now they have fallen way back.
After trying several methods to sort through the list, I found a method that worked for me. First, I took the inital 20 players on the list. Then I looked at who appeared next and if I felt they were better than anyone above them, I made a replacement. The farther I went along, the tougher it became.
I haven't done anything beyond that list. Clearly, Tim and Kobe deserve consideration, but what about other players? James and Wade are too new IMO. Garnett? Nowitski? The NBA needs to update that list.
Top 50 NBA players at 50 years, sorted by entrance into pro basketball:
1-20
George Mikan 1948-49
Dolph Schayes 1949-50
Paul Arizin 1950-51
Bob Cousy 1950-51
Bill Sharman 1950-51
Bob Pet 1954-55
Bill Russell 1956-57
Sam Jones 1957-58
Elgin Baylor 1958-59
Hal Greer 1958-59
Wilt Chamberlain 1959-60
Jerry West 1960-61
Oscar Robertson 1960-61
Lenny Wilkens 1960-61
John Havlicek 1962-63
Dave DeBusschere 1962-63
Jerry Lucas 1963-64
Nate Thurmond 1963-64
Willis Reed 1964-65
Rick Barry 1965-66
21-50
Billy Cunningham 1965-66
Dave Bing 1966-67
Walt Frazier 1967-68
Earl Monroe 1967-68
Elvin Hayes 1968-69
Wes Unseld 1968-69
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1969-70
Nate Archibald 1970-71
Dave Cowens 1970-71
Pete Maravich 1970-71
Julius Erving 1971-72
George Gervin 1972-73
Moses Malone 1974-75
Bill Walton 1975-76
Robert Parish 1976-77
Larry Bird 1979-80
Magic Johnson 1979-80
Kevin McHale 1980-81
Isiah Thomas 1981-82
James Worthy 1982-83
Clyde Drexler 1983-84
Michael Jordan 1984-85
Hakeem Olajuwon 1984-85
Charles Barkley 1984=85
John Stockton 1984-85
Patrick Ewing 1985-86
Karl Malone 1985-86
Scottie Pippen 1987-88
David Robinson 1989-90
Shaquille O'Neal 1992-93
I got an argument for Bob Cousy in 1957 which was also Bill Russell's rookie year, the year when Cousy won the 1957 MVP, so he was arguably the best player in the league. Although they did give the MVP and finals MVP to rookies in the NBA before, should Russell have gotten it over Cousy? I don't think so.
In the playoffs, Cousy averaged 20.2 points, 6.1 rebounds and 9.3 assists on 32.4% shooting in 44 minutes. Nowadays, when we take a look at that ty FG%, we say this guy is inefficient, he sucks, why the is he shooting so much? In that era, from what I have read, guards rarely, if not never step into the paint. The 6.1 rebounds obviously came from a lot of misses from both sides, but still quite impressive nonetheless considering that guards rarely step into the paint.
Not only that, assists in the past were difficult to get. If you dribbled the ball and passed the ball, and the guy scored, no assist, which was quoted from Heinsohn. In an era where everyone's efficiency, or lack of was so evident with no 3 point shot as spacing and with big men like Russell with horrendous shooting efficiency, Cousy managed to get 9.3 assists in the playoffs, which would be well ahead of anyone in his era by more than 25%. This percentage would have surpassed the likes of John Stockton. Relative to era, Cousy was perhaps the greatest assist man to ever play in the NBA.
Bill Russell scored 13.9 points, 24.4 rebounds, 3.2 assists on 36.5% shooting in 40.9 minutes in the 1957 playoffs. The argument against Russell would be that he didn't score enough and did it on fairly poor efficiency (in that era) for a big man who plays close to the rim. His defensive impact would have made up for it though. Cousy didn't win until Russell joined the Celtics, which was a major point. Was Russell's rebounding numbers inflated due to poor shooting and increasing pace after the dead ball era? Probably, but the numbers would still be ridiculous. Russell had 3.2 assists, which was also good for a big man.
Would Cousy have deserved the finals MVP over Russell if there was one that year? For that year, he certainly had every reason and argument over Bill Russell, considering that he was league MVP, meaning he was the most valuable player on his team in 1957 and was the offensive mastermind of the Celtics, while Russell was the defensive anchor. I would lean towards Cousy for 1957, the rest of the glory and trophies would belong to Russell during later years.
Yes, Kobe is definitely a top 10 player of all-time..he's on the same tier as Shaq, Duncan and Olajuwon..
Kobe has already surpassed Shaq/Duncan's tier and he's only 32.
Sorry
Prove it, present your argument..
I thought these were all troll threads.
How can he be when all of his rings have come with an all-star bigman?
When he can win by himself like the all-time greats did, he'll get the respect and recognition that comes with that. Until then...
Pretty much at this point. What's it's mostly been for the entire year.
Grey and over 2k? Rough, bro.
Why would I need to prove a...fact?
I'm representin' because the Spurs colors are black & grey (according to Kori).
crucify em 21, send that Heat bandwagoning ass to the tree of woe
So because Ghazi hates the Heat, he's a Laker bandwagoner? sucks.
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