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Don't you care too much about stats?
Last time I checked this was about winning, not about stats...
Pop should find a way to get Barry more involved in the offense, or else all we can hope for is Brown healing faster.
I probably should have called this thread something like 82games.com Posts Playoff Stats, because I agree with you that the +/- stats are somewhat misleading (and in some players' cases, downright amusing).
Take a look at the 5 man unit stats though (oy, I wish I knew how to insert a formatted table, but it's at http://www.82games.com/playoffs/045PSAS2.HTM; timvp, help again please?)
All of the top rated five man units that the Spurs have run through the Nuggets and Sonics include Bruce Bowen, which I think speaks to his value to the team.
Conversely, take a look at any unit which includes Brent Barry and you see marked dropoffs in points produced and marked increases in points allowed, particularly close in shots, but also effective field goal % allowed (which factors in the increased value of 3 pointers).
I really, really want to see Brent Barry work out, and I hope he kicks ass against the Suns, but to date, the guy has not just not produced offensively, his presence on the court has been detrimental to the team in just about every way (the Spurs turn the ball over more, allow more dunks and three pointers and commit more turnovers--and this is including the rotation where BB started).
I don't know. Maybe I'm looking at these stats wrong. It's possible. I don't pretend to be a basketball genius. Somebody out there: find something good to say about Brent Barry based on the team playoff stats.
Last edited by bigbendbruisebrother; 05-21-2005 at 08:02 PM.
Don't you care too much about stats?
Last time I checked this was about winning, not about stats...
Pop should find a way to get Barry more involved in the offense, or else all we can hope for is Brown healing faster.
I saw it...just like I saw the general consensus that Bowen's problem was playing like a coward, which I found amusing considrering he torched Kobe Bryant's ass when LA was the 3 time defending champion...so I didn't bother responding...because I know that's not what the probem is...
Guys are either cowards or they aren't...they don't change from game to game depending on how many shots they take.
Bowen isn't a coward...and neither is Barry. There's aren't any cowards on this team and this is the most talented Spurs team in NBA history...it all revolved around Pop's micromanaging tendencies at that particular stretch...
I give him credit for fixing it in games 4 and 5.
The problem was there absolutely no kickout from the paint...to Bowen or Barry...and Manu, Parker and Duncan were playing one on one(and Beno and Robinson are too)...I ed about it...and the Spurs started doing that in game 5...Problem solved.
I don't mind Big Dogg doing it...since that's what he does. but I got a problem with the way everone else was doing it...
Did you see what Manu said he learned in game 5? Utilize a teamate...he used to know that on his own...until Pop beat it out of him by telling everyone to take it into the paint and play on one one(it had to be Pop if even Beno is doing it).
All you need to know is that Manu is allowed to play differently than any other guy on the team, albeit still more restrained than he would be if left to his own deviced...Pop has said Manu's style of play drives him totally crazy but he puts up with it because you get the most out of him that way...Notice Pop is driven crazy by the same characteristics that make Manu the best +/- player in the NBA.
Stupidest take that you've ever made.Did you see what Manu said he learned in game 5? Utilize a teamate...he used to know that on his own...until Pop beat it out of him.
Yeah but I still got a ways to go to catch up with the idiots that think these players are cowards...
I'll work on it.
You know what ... this is shaping up to be another pointless Brent Barry thread. Anyone who has watched him play in the playoffs know that he alternates between being The Invisible Man and The Human Placeholder. Only Whottt can find the beauty of what Billion Barry has done so far. And Whottt doesn't even believe it himself, he's just trying to save face on the point he's been getting destroyed on since preseason.
I'm bailing out of this conversation. There are more important things to discuss than a no impact player such as Billion. Let Whottt skew the numbers to make it seem that Billion is something more than a playoff non-factor.
Whottt's reign was over after he vanished from the board for 52 hours after the Game Five Billion Barry debacle. He didn't post at all until after the next game. That was the biggest wuss move of this forum's history.
I invite Whottt to join some other conversation other than Barry. Whottt has good passion and is usually a solid poster, but he's stuck in a rut. Please consider talking about something else for a change.
B. Barry 22 0-3 0-2 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bye.
P.S.
I'm hopeful that Billion can do something against the Suns. The Suns aren't exactly a defensive juggernaut and Billion can actually matchup against them. I think he'll have his moments.
Believe.
whottt's season long taking it up the rear for Barry will rank up there with Ghost's Payton love affair and the (was it Aggie? apologies if not) Coyote > DRob battle as some of all time most pathetic personal crusades in Spurs' message board history.
That was Whottt. But he never exactly said that Coyote > DRob -- and with that, another argument may begin.the (was it Aggie? apologies if not) Coyote > DRob battle
Wow two of the all time worst! Hats off whottt.
No, I don't. I just live in the middle of nowhere, and I enjoy talking to other Spurs fans when there are no games. You're right. It is all just about winning, but if you take away people analyzing why this team plays the way it does, there would be very few posts.
The 82games.com stats are really interesting to me because they help explain to me how this team can be so hot and cold within individual games.
When you get a chance to go to a Spurs game you get to pickup on things that you just can't by watching from home. Case in point. When Barry gets the ball, about 14,000 people get a little antzy and mumble under their breath. The other 4,797 people just got tickets as gifts.
You were the one spouting how good the Spurs were when Barry started. Don't turn your back on that now.
No, I spouted how good they are when he +25 minutes per game and is allowed to participate in the offense and the 4th quarter.
I was the one saying starting him was not the solution...I wasn't defending the move.
You also ignored that the fact that everyone of Barry's best scoring games came off the bench...and with Duncan injured. Including leading the team 4 times off the bench, the only timess he lead the team this season.I over-estimated Barry's courage. I thought he'd step up when he was given a chance to play with the rest of the starters.
I said starting him was a lazy and uninsightful solution to the problem...I was right.
You didn't pay attention to what I said...if you had you wouldn't have been surprised.Didn't happen.
Give me something other than a positive +/- and I might be willing to agree...as it is...I am defending a guy for being +20 while being Manu's(the league leader in playoff +/-) sub.Barry sucks. Admit it.
I just know how or why I am defending a guy for for being pos ive in +/-, shooting over 50% from 2 for 2 consecuvtive playoff series, for shooting 37% from 3, 44% from the field, being 4th on the team in assists, second in FT %, 3rd in PPS...
I just don't know how to defend that...
I can only assume you guys haven't got a clue what the you are talking about.
I guess we can talk about a career 10PPG scorer scoring 6.7 in fewer minutes...or 5.4 when the entire team is playing like ball hogs and not passing it out of the paint.
But it still doesn't make any sense.
Yeah...like I was babbling when I said starting him with Duncan wouldn't help..Not sure what you are babbling about. Not that that's a new thing.*
I see your point...Barry stepped up when he was most needed, without Tim Duncan....what a ing gutless coward.Regular season doesn't count. Barry sucked until he was forced to do something with most of the other players injured.
And Manu didn't play in all those games...like the second double OT win.
Um...I have always been a Manu fan...but I don't think he was playing much team ball this series....I don't think Parker or Duncan were either...I guess the dispute lies in whether or not they were doing what Pop wanted them to do...Your stance should be that Manu = God. If you said that, it'd be hard to find stats that disprove that.
Since they had been doing it since game 3 or so of the Denver series I have to conclude it was what he wanted.
Barry has a positive +/- subbing for Manu...that's my point.You like to say that Barry plays well with Manu ... well yeah, you could go out there with Manu and have a positive +/-.
You and other Barry haters are the only guys that thinks a positive +/- subbing for the league leader in +/- is a negative thing...
Barry's defense has been much improved since Duncan got injured...I might point out that you thought he wasn't supposed to be doubling Carmelo in that Denver series when Pop yanked him...you were wrong. Pop yanked him becasue he was sticking with the double after Melo was no longer posting up and follow it up to the perimeter...and Manu was doubling from the same spot on Melo's post ups.
Yeah, the defense of Billion Barry must be the deciding factor in that.
Yeah...teams are leaving the 17th best 3 shooter in NBA history wide open...You should be happy Barry has started to chuck up ty shots.You've lost it. You're defending a guy who barely contributes even though he isn't being guarded.
What you don't understand...Barry has shot fine from 3 this season...it's only Spurfans that think he sucks..Most Spurs fans know offense like TPark knows the female anatomy.
What photographic evidence would that be?Nice of you to turn down the photographic evidence that people don't guard Barry. How Barry-esque of you to get scared of a situation.
You'd make him proud.
I got called out and then got ripped for responding...like I have all season on this subject...Cue Whottt deleting his post in a hissy fit.[/SIZE]
You know what ... this is shaping up to be another pointless Brent Barry thread. Anyone who has watched him play in the playoffs know that he alternates between being The Invisible Man and The Human Placeholder. Only Whottt can find the beauty of what Billion Barry has done so far. And Whottt doesn't even believe it himself, he's just trying to save face on the point he's been getting destroyed on since preseason.
I'm bailing out of this conversation. There are more important things to discuss than a no impact player such as Billion. Let Whottt skew the numbers to make it seem that Billion is something more than a playoff non-factor.
Whottt's reign was over after he vanished from the board for 52 hours after the Game Five Billion Barry debacle. He didn't post at all until after the next game. That was the biggest wuss move of this forum's history.
I invite Whottt to join some other conversation other than Barry. Whottt has good passion and is usually a solid poster, but he's stuck in a rut. Please consider talking about something else for a change.
B. Barry 22 0-3 0-2 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Bye.
P.S.
I'm hopeful that Billion can do something against the Suns. The Suns aren't exactly a defensive juggernaut and Billion can actually matchup against them. I think he'll have his moments.
Believe.
TimVP...I'd bail too if I suddenly realized I was ripping a guy for putting up better numbers than he did in the regular season, for having a positive +/, it's freaking positive...and for ripping him for being placeholder, when that is all his coach lets him be(except in our biggest wins of the season), and siding with a guy that is challenged by the code function, making a JPG, and thinks playing in the lineup with the best TO ratio and not having made more than 3 TO's in a game this entire season, is the reason for our turnover problems.
And you guys probably wonder why I am a head on this subject..
You call a postive +/- , stepping up with Duncan injured, shooting 44% from the field and 37% from 3 a negative and evidence of cowardice....I am sorry but you guys are tools.
I do agree with you on most of it, but I think you might be overanalyzing this. Stats hardly ever tell you the entire picture, Barry having +1 or +1.2 or -2 or whatever shouldn't be the focus of our concern. The fact that he isnt being able to perform up to the level we know he can or that Pop can't find the propper way to use him in the best advantage of the Spurs should.
With Hedo we all knew he was a bet, as much talent as he has he did struggle the season before he got here and he never established himself as an important player. Barry, on the other side, is, so I do think Pop has some blame to take for Barry's poor season and playoffs.
Last edited by danyel; 05-21-2005 at 09:15 PM.
Barry putting up better numbers? That's news to me.
I hope he can put up the #'s tommrow and in the Suns series. Cause the Spurs will need him.
What Mario Elie shot in the playoffs the year we won the le, his first year with the team:
FG% 384, 3PT PCT 267%.
What Steve Kerr shot his first year:
FG% 267, 3PT% 231
I know, I know, you clowns probably thought he was a coward coming off his 3 consecutive les...because he didn't excel in the Spurs ty offense.
What Stephen Jackson shot his first year:
Ooops.
What Stephen Jackson shot his second year:
FG% 414, 3PT% 336.
FG% VS LA Mr Clutch shot: 327%, 3PT% 188%
Bowen his first year:
FG% 410, 3PT% 440.
But wait...
With Brent Barry guarding him:
FG% 333%, 3 PT% 333
LOL People call Barry a choker but he shot a of a lot better against Bowen than Bowen did against him.
Bruce the year we won the le:
FG% 373, 3PT% 438( I won't pull a TimVP and take away the game where Bowen made 7 3 pointers).
Bowen last year:
FG% 367, 3PT PCT 379.
Manu First year:
FG% 367%, 3PT% 384%.
Manu last year:
FG 447%, 3PT% 286.
Hedo:
FG% 321, 3PT%333
Barry:
FG% 438, 3PT%, 367.
So you see...not only is he not doing as badly as a lot of guys did...he's doing better than just about all of them.
Don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about....you guys are haters plain and simple...
I got no problem with it...just admit it and stop acting like you are being objective...
I guess you can rip Barry's PPG...and if you expect a 10PPG scorer to bust out on a low scoring team...then you are just dumb and if that's what the Spurs wanted...they are ing stupid too...don't rip a guy because he's not what you want...rip yourselves and the Spurs for being stupid and not realizing what he was...and it aint a scorer.
Nikos...his numbers are up in every category except PPG...that's down 2 PPG...but Manu and Parker's scoring is up...and it's because they are scoring more.
I also like to factor in minutes into the equation. He simply isn't producing much. Yeah TD, Parker, and Manu get most of the possesions, but I still expect more production than 0-0-0-0-0 in 22 min of a big ball game.
Factor in minutes all you want...but just realize that team assists are down substantially from the regular season...while shot attempts for the big 3 are up, and it doesn't just show up in Barry's stats...it shows in Bowen's stats as well
Don't even and try and tell me the Spurs had the same kind of ball movement for most of the playoffs as they did in the regular season or even the same desire to move the ball...they were taking it into the paint long after it was clogged...it changed when Pop mentioned that it needed to be changed...right after game 4.
I don't think this team is a bunch of rebels...I think they do what Pop asks them to do to the best of their ability. And they get yanked when they don't. 5 games of 1 on 1 means Pop wanted it...not any thing else.
And all you guys that want Barry to penetrate...that's not what the Spurs want him to do and I can find quotes by him saying that...they want him to stand out there and spread the paint...if they wanted him to penetrate more he would be doing it, they would give him plays to do it...he can't penetrate with the excellence of Manu and Parker...but he can do it well enough to get guys open...and he finds them when he does it...he finds them better than any guy on the team IMO. He always looks for his teamates...
You guys call that cowardice...I call it the reason that Parker's best assist season is just barely better than Barry's...I call it the reason Barry's career high in assists is higher than any other guy on our team,...he's a great passer that exemplifies unselfish play...and he does take the big shots when it is asked of him to do so. And he has all season.
Spurs fans have done this guy a serious disservice all season long with the coward label.....it shows a tremendous lack of insight on the behalf of Spurs fans...like I say...show me the ing choke if he's done it.
At this point we need all the helpo we can get.
Who knows? Maybe Barry will have a huge series against the Suns?
He can't get much worse, right? (knock on wood)
You don't get it...Barry is the worst player in NBA history...Pop is an idiot for giving him playing time...
I hope Barry sits the bench for the rest of the series...because, even though it won't shut the anti-Barry whiners up..it should give them something else to whine about and give a little more variety to the board...
Bench Barry...
Spurs fans want a guy jacking up shots...Glenn Robinson does that...and he evidently is a better defender than Barry as well...
When Bigg Dogg gets back he and Beno need to get all of Barry's minutes and if he doesn't Spurs fans need to rip Pop for putting the biggest choking of all time on the court...I mean you can't blame Barry for getting put on the court can you?
Oh wait...the guys I argue with on this are a bunch of ing tools with no clue for saying what they say....they'll still find a way to blame Barry.
But hopefully it will happen...
It works out for everyone...the coward Barry doesn't have to take the court, whining Spursfans with bad takes and a lack of insight get the scorer they want who will always jack up a bad shot like his coach and his fans want him to do, and I'll have more people shutting the up about it...
Make the move...if it shuts people up an stops the board from turning into the cesspool of bad unenlightened takes it has been turning into recently..I am for it.
And BTW...I don't know why everyone is expecting a miracle change. It's been this way all season and it isn't going to change dramatically. It'll change when our offense changes...some people think that is a mistake...I personally think choking every season on predictable offense makes it more difficult to win a le..
Last edited by whottt; 05-22-2005 at 01:38 AM.
Yep, those "chokes" in 1999 and 2003 were the worst of all.
Man, how dare Pop win 2 les with his awful coaching! Loser.
Correct me if I'm wrong Whottt, but I think ALL those guys shot a OF A LOT more 3s than what Barry has shot these playoffs. I mean, I think Barry has made MAYBE 4 threepointer the entire series lol. So % doesn't mean ! I'm sorry, I don't care how you want to put it, but Barry is stinking up the place. Even if he did make a clutch threepointer or two, it still doesn't make up for his bad defence, and the rest of the ing time he's been either missing or simply not shooting (and don't blame the not shooting on lack of opportunity! 'cause that's just bull ! I've seen plenty of times Barry has chosen not to shoot when he's been wide open). Barry is playing like , and there's no way around that.
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