4 opinions

[RandomGuy]

It is beer time for me and my conservative liberatarian friends. Yes, I have them in RL.

I am the token liberal guy.

On more than one occasion we end up by saying, quite literally " you, you're wrong, see you next week, man."

See y'all later.

[CosmicCowboy]

why don't you drop the healthcare and give your employees the option?

thats what i'm considering. right now, not including my family, i'm paying 17k a month.

I'm always looking at my options. I'm pretty sure they are gonna have to start paying a percentage for family coverage.

[CosmicCowboy]

Private insurers cost far more in terms of overhead than Medicare does to do the exact same job.

and you KNOW this how?

[2centsworth]

First, you have the numbers wrong.

It's a sleight of hand to make you think you pay less.

Before your employer writes your check he pays 6.2% of that number for SS and 1.45% for medicare. Then he writes the check to you and deducts another 6.2% for SS and another 1.45% for medicare.

If your check for the month says you made $3000 less taxes you employer REALLY paid you an additional $230 that month that he just deducted for your taxes before he wrote the check.

Your cost to him as an employer was $3230. for that month, not counting other taxes and expenses like unemployment insurance, workmans comp, etc.

And what makes you say I'm for bigger government? Because I preferred a loan guarantee backed up by the IRS hammer over tax credits you never get back?

I feel the same way about student loans. , yeah, lets give government guarantees for student loans. Then, if they try to default then turn it over to the IRS and garnish their paychecks forever till the loans are paid off.

One thing at a time:

We were talking about you and the amount of Medicare you say you paid in. You as a self-employed individual paid about 2.4% after-tax for medicare. That amounts to $168k/yr, which I point out so you can check your math.

Lastly, accredited investors don't need the government to be their bill collectors.

[clambake]

several docs put a limit on the amount of medicare patients they'll accept.

so, not quite the exact same job, rg.

[CosmicCowboy]

One thing at a time:

We were talking about you and the amount of Medicare you say you paid in. You as a self-employed individual paid about 2.4% after-tax for medicare. That amounts to $168k/yr, which I point out so you can check your math.

Lastly, accredited investors don't need the government to be their bill collectors.

I own a C corporation that pays me a salary. I know the math.

[2centsworth]

I own a C corporation that pays me a salary. I know the math.

then what is your expected annual benefit from Medicare when you retire?

I'll help you, per the Medicare Trustees Report over $20,000 per year. Since you are scheduled to contribute another $45,000 or so, if you don't die by age 73 you then become another welfare baby.

On average, current retires receive over $100,000 more than they have paid in.


I point this out, not because I don't want to take care of our seniors, but to correct the misconception that the en lement problems are because of immigrants and minorities. It's Medicare Stupid (not calling you stupid)

[CosmicCowboy]

then what is your expected annual benefit from Medicare when you retire?

I'll help you, per the Medicare Trustees Report over $20,000 per year. Since you are scheduled to contribute another $45,000 or so, if you don't die by age 73 you then become another welfare baby.

On average, current retires receive over $100,000 more than they have paid in.


I point this out, not because I don't want to take care of our seniors, but to correct the misconception that the en lement problems are because of immigrants and minorities. It's Medicare Stupid (not calling you stupid)

I have said all along the problem is that medical care is too good and too expensive. Health care will have to be rationed. The only question is whether it will be rationed by ability to pay or rationed by a government panel who decides who gets it and who doesn't. Obama was dead serious when he said grandma may have to take an aspirin and go home instead of being treated.

[boutons_deux]

"current retires receive over $100,000 more than they have paid in"

I'm pretty sure they paid more into employer group plans on average than they claimed.

If those payments went into a universal public option instead of for-profit insurers, the country would be in much better shape fiscally, but still a country over self-inflicted diseased fat asses.

[2centsworth]

I have said all along the problem is that medical care is too good and too expensive. Health care will have to be rationed. The only question is whether it will be rationed by ability to pay or rationed by a government panel who decides who gets it and who doesn't. Obama was dead serious when he said grandma may have to take an aspirin and go home instead of being treated.

Per a conversation I had with a Doctor, 80% of the medicare expense is during the last 6 months of life.

Maybe grandma needs to take one for the team.

[coyotes_geek]

Our aging population poses the largest threat to our financial security, followed closely behind by our over-dependence on fossil fuels.

Medicare/SS are simply convenient whipping-boys. Get rid of them if you want, but the problems will not go away.

Medicare & SS aren't "simply convienent whipping-boys". You acknowledged as much when you posted this in another thread:

There are only about 4 places in the federal budget that you could cut to where it would make a difference.

There is no way to bring the federal debt/defecit situation without making drastic cuts in SS&M.

How then do you deal with an aging population who would not, or for that matter could not, save the required amount of money to retire, when they are literally too old to work?

Forced euthanasia? What is the free-market solution for poor, sick old people? Anyone?

Lots of people are going to get screwed. Millions and millions of seniors are destined to die in poverty. It sucks, but it's inevitable. The decline in the American standard of living is assured. The only alternative is continuation down an unsustainable path ending in complete financial collapse.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Just to point out, Medicare pays what health care providers bill it for because health care providers arent' allowed to bill it for anything else. I'm not a doctor, so it's not like I can give a comparison regarding cost vs payout, just wanted to be clear that Medicare is very restricted in what Dr.s are allowed to bill it for and what the payouts will be.

It's not like the Drs are billing their normal prices and Medicare is paying them. Every year Drs write off a large amount of money between what they normally charge and what Medicare pays.

Its not compulsory for doctors to accept medicare/aid yet they still do.

[Winehole23]

Private insurers cost far more in terms of overhead than Medicare does to do the exact same job.

Forcing everybody onto the rolls of private insurers simply will make insurance cost far more to society as a whole than it would otherwise.

It sounds like another version of the healthcare reform we have right now, sure, but the tax credit is a different sort of incentive than a fine for noncompliance.

2cents didn't give us very much info about that. But I'll readily admit to having no handy information about the incentives built in to the healthcare reform recently passed.

[Winehole23]

(is a bit out of his depth in this thread)

[CosmicCowboy]

There is no way to bring the federal debt/defecit situation without making drastic cuts in SS&M.



Lots of people are going to get screwed. Millions and millions of seniors are destined to die in poverty. It sucks, but it's inevitable. The decline in the American standard of living is assured. The only alternative is continuation down an unsustainable path ending in complete financial collapse.

I agree that in our new dumbed down democracy there is no way that the USA can halt it's decline. It's not just old people. You young guys are ed too. , It's your fault too...you just don't realize it yet. My generation has raised a generation of wimps that were told they were special when they weren't. It wasn't about winning, it was about being on the team. The truth is about to hit home. being a mediocre non-achiever means you are ed.

[fyatuk]

Its not compulsory for doctors to accept medicare/aid yet they still do.

Not for long...

http://www.texastribune.org/texas-he...care-patients/

http://www.nydailynews.com/money/201...ts_left_f.html

Etc.

And with huge cuts in reimbursement rates planned for Medicare, we'll see more of this I'd bet.

You can't expect people who pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for education to accept losing money in their profession....

[ElNono]

In no particular order.

1. A reduction in the capital gains tax(on stock) is solely a tax cut for the rich and has almost nothing to do with helping the economy.

Agree

2. Tax cuts don't always mean Revenue Reduction.

Disagree.

3. Minorities need access to capital. A TAX Incentive for rich people(accredited investors) to directly invest in Minority owned businesses would do wonders. My idea, allow accredited investors to make $25,000 tax deductible loans to minority owned businesses.

Not a fan of this idea.

4. We can eliminate Defense Spending and still have a budgetary problem. Medicare is eating us alive. When people think of Welfare baby, they need to stop picturing minority families on food stamps. White Elderly People are the Elephant in the room.

Debatable at many levels. We like to simply use the monolithic label, such as Medicare, but once you start breaking down that mammoth into pieces, there's individual items that could be addressed without having to necessarily throw all of it away. The problem is that there's no political will to do that in an orderly and sincere manner.

[ElNono]

You can't expect people who pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for education to accept losing money in their profession....

Maybe this is part of the problem, not the solution...

[RandomGuy]

Medicare & SS aren't "simply convienent whipping-boys". You acknowledged as much when you posted this in another thread:

(federal budget graphic)

There is no way to bring the federal debt/defecit situation without making drastic cuts in SS&M.


Lots of people are going to get screwed. Millions and millions of seniors are destined to die in poverty. It sucks, but it's inevitable. The decline in the American standard of living is assured. The only alternative is continuation down an unsustainable path ending in complete financial collapse.

Given that wealth distribution in this country is hyper-concentrated in the upper deciles, that "millions of seniors are destined to die in poverty", what does that say about the way we think materialistically?

Raising taxes on the "haves" is not the death knell of the country, far from it.

That the wealthy have suckered so many tea-baggers into thinking it is, does make for a depressing realization.

There are two kinds of Republicans, millionaires and suckers.

The suckers are the ones who have the delusion that someday they may be wealthy, so they support all sorts of things that are directly incimal to their own interests.

I disagree that the US has to go into decline. I think we will probably go sideways for a while, until the 2-3bn people in China/India start catching up a bit, and Africa finally starts jumping on that bandwagon.

[2centsworth]

(is a bit out of his depth in this thread)

Required Reading IMO. Universal Health Care Solution without the inefficiencies of government.

http://www.robert-h-frank.com/PDFs/E...JM.3-24-05.pdf

[fyatuk]

Maybe this is part of the problem, not the solution...

One of the reasons I was opposed to health care reform is it didn't address many of the cost issues. There's needs to be more grants for medical training (both doctors and nurses) as well as decent lone forgiveness programs for doctors who donate time/services, etc. Reduce the cost of creating doctors and you reduce the cost of medicine in general.

[101A]

One of the reasons I was opposed to health care reform is it didn't address many of the cost issues. There's needs to be more grants for medical training (both doctors and nurses) as well as decent lone forgiveness programs for doctors who donate time/services, etc. Reduce the cost of creating doctors and you reduce the cost of medicine in general.

It addressed NONE of the cost issues.

Doctors don't charge what they NEED to charge; they charge what the market will bear; the market (since it is insurance companies and/or government) has VERY deep pockets, so it can bear quite a bit. Return much of the market to a more limited pocket book, and prices will drop. Otherwise, they won't.

[2centsworth]

Originally Posted by 2centsworth
2. Tax cuts don't always mean Revenue Reduction.










ELNONO: Disagree.

Allow me to give you an example.

For instance, we allow a Wealthy Individual a $25,000 tax deduction for investing in another persons small business.

That small business person then invests that $25,000 in a product that can be sold for 4 times the cost. That is a $100,000 increase in Sales. Not only will local municipalities benefit from the sales taxes collected, but the small business man will pay income taxes on profit and most likely will hire someone who will also pay income taxes and add to the productivity of the business.

In this case, we took $25,000 of idle got it moving in the system.









.

[CosmicCowboy]

Allow me to give you an example.

For instance, we allow a Wealthy Individual a $25,000 tax deduction for investing in another persons small business.

That small business person then invests that $25,000 in a product that can be sold for 4 times the cost. That is a $100,000 increase in Sales. Not only will local municipalities benefit from the sales taxes collected, but the small business man will pay income taxes on profit and most likely will hire someone who will also pay income taxes and add to the productivity of the business.

In this case, we took $25,000 of idle got it moving in the system.

You want to make loaning money to drug dealers tax deductible?

Seriously, your idea sucks.

[RandomGuy]

Per a conversation I had with a Doctor, 80% of the medicare expense is during the last 6 months of life.

That bears out with the studies done that I have seen, yes.

That is why they are paying serious attention to the counties in the US that have requirements that everybody receive end-of-life counseling.

A simple DNR and clearly outlining your wishes and who should be responsible for making decisions, means that these counties have VERY low expenditures on health care.