No Degree, and No Way Back to the Middle

[Guru of Nothing]

I think I understand the problem(s).

(1) Distractions

(2) Lack of emphasis on fundamentals.

(3) Bad teachers - not all teachers are bad, so put the flamethrowers away.

(4) Bad parents

(5) Very bad administrators.

Salaries aside, these problems cannot be fixed with money.

[Nbadan]

(1) Distractions

Like unfunded or under-funded mandates and a burgeoning level of regulations from the State.

(2) Lack of emphasis on fundamentals.

Thanks to teachers, there has been a re-emphasis in fundamentals in the grade school level. Today, kids must know how to read by the time they leave Kindergarden. The real problems occur in the Middle and High School levels. In Texas, part of that problem is a over-emphasis on sports. While sports can be beneficial to a students development, if we gave equal emphasis to disciplines like Science and Math as we do to sports, there wouldn't be such a big problem with our schools.

Experienced teachers with skills tend to gravitate to district with more resources (ie richer districts), I mean, Who can blame them? It is the American way, right? However, this leaves non-certified, beginning, or leaving teachers teaching the students who generally need the most help.

[SWC Bonfire]

In Texas, part of that problem is a over-emphasis on sports. While sports can be beneficial to a students development, if we gave equal emphasis to disciplines like Science and Math as we do to sports, there wouldn't be such a big problem with our schools.

I call BS. Sports develop of a lot of skills that are vital in the workplace and in life (teamwork, working with colleages with differing backgrounds, hard work, self-motivation, self-discipline, building trust and professional relationships). Dan, did you play team sports at a varsity level? There is a reason that people who did not play (several) sports don't like them, and people who did look back fondly on them. Maybe you never possessed athletic skill (which is still no reason not to try to find a sport you like), were jealous of athletes, or are snobby and believe that "jocks" are all stupid. Athletes are a cross-section of society; there are good and bad, smart and stupid. But the benefit of team sports will never change.

You're not going to get a lot of love on a sports message board. That Tim Duncan played several sports, and he turned out to be a pretty good kid.

[MannyIsGod]

I call BS. Sports develop of a lot of skills that are vital in the workplace and in life (teamwork, working with colleages with differing backgrounds, hard work, self-motivation, self-discipline, building trust and professional relationships). Dan, did you play team sports at a varsity level? There is a reason that people who did not play (several) sports don't like them, and people who did look back fondly on them. Maybe you never possessed athletic skill (which is still no reason not to try to find a sport you like), were jealous of athletes, or are snobby and believe that "jocks" are all stupid. Athletes are a cross-section of society; there are good and bad, smart and stupid. But the benefit of team sports will never change.

You're not going to get a lot of love on a sports message board. That Tim Duncan played several sports, and he turned out to be a pretty good kid.

There are several reasons Sports get the attention they do, and you're being a bit to idealistic about it to call anyone's take on it bull . They get a lot of favortism over other activities in schools here that do the same things you mentioned.

Oh, and before you question me, I played several sports in HS.

[travis2]

Yes it does and I'm involved with my children's education by going over their home work with them. Going to teacher conferences and requesting a teacher conference if I feel my child is struggling, by taking them to museums and watching the news with them.
By telling how much education is the key and pushing college everyday and telling them that the world is theirs but nobody is going to give it to them.

Yes, I know the public school system needs work but too many parents and complain but don't vote, don't go to the school council meetings, don't pay attentkion to their child's progress reports..yada, yada, yada.

That was the point I was trying to make.

Yeah, buddy!!

[travis2]

I agree. No child should be left behind....if they are willing to work for it.

Another yeah, buddy!

[travis2]

I call BS. Sports develop of a lot of skills that are vital in the workplace and in life (teamwork, working with colleages with differing backgrounds, hard work, self-motivation, self-discipline, building trust and professional relationships). Dan, did you play team sports at a varsity level? There is a reason that people who did not play (several) sports don't like them, and people who did look back fondly on them. Maybe you never possessed athletic skill (which is still no reason not to try to find a sport you like), were jealous of athletes, or are snobby and believe that "jocks" are all stupid. Athletes are a cross-section of society; there are good and bad, smart and stupid. But the benefit of team sports will never change.

You're not going to get a lot of love on a sports message board. That Tim Duncan played several sports, and he turned out to be a pretty good kid.

Change "sports" to "extra-curricular activities" and I would agree with you. Not everyone has the athletic skill (even if they have the desire) to compete for a varsity slot.

Extra-curricular activities of all kinds are important. (My kids are band kids...and if you don't think marching band is athletic, you haven't been to band camp lately...or watched practice during marching season) The problem is that sports (and especially football) are seen as the be-all-and-end-all extra-curricular activity, most of the time. Other activities, like band, orchestra, choir, debate, theater arts, etc., get very short shrift. And undeservedly so.

[Jekka]

Change "sports" to "extra-curricular activities" and I would agree with you. Not everyone has the athletic skill (even if they have the desire) to compete for a varsity slot.

Extra-curricular activities of all kinds are important. (My kids are band kids...and if you don't think marching band is athletic, you haven't been to band camp lately...or watched practice during marching season) The problem is that sports (and especially football) are seen as the be-all-and-end-all extra-curricular activity, most of the time. Other activities, like band, orchestra, choir, debate, theater arts, etc., get very short shrift. And undeservedly so.

I completely agree that extra-curricular activities are vital to personal and academic development - and it saddens me that fine arts programs are so unappreciated. Any study will tell you that fine arts help develop all areas - especially math, science, and comprehension and interpretation. Sports however, get the majority of the funding, and programs like marching band, because they perform at sports events.

[travis2]

I completely agree that extra-curricular activities are vital to personal and academic development - but, especially in Texas - you can't really change sports into that category because most other extra-curriculars are amazingly underfunded and unappreciated compared to sports (except things like marching bands that just happen to play at sports events). When fine arts programs are funded as well as sports, THEN I will be willing to change sports into extra-curricular activities.

Ummmmm...I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this, Jekka...it seems to me that you and I are actually in violent agreement...

[Jekka]

Ummmmm...I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this, Jekka...it seems to me that you and I are actually in violent agreement...

See the edit above. I'm not all here today.

[travis2]

...OK, I see it.

Although marching band isn't funded all that well...a great deal of funding comes from the parents involved, as well as fundraisers.

[Jekka]

...OK, I see it.

Although marching band isn't funded all that well...a great deal of funding comes from the parents involved, as well as fundraisers.

Yes, those extra fundraisers are important, because you're never going to get that much fine arts money from the state. I went to art boot-camp for high school (hspva.org) where we had fine arts classes in our specific discipline for three hours a day in addition to the required state degree plan - and I can tell you that school was the most insane group of over achievers ever. I had a 4.2 GPA out of 5 from taking AP classes and I just missed being in the top half of my class. Fine arts programs encourage young people to be creative problem solvers and to achieve beyond what is expected. A lot of people were surprised that so much of the school's population was like that, but really, the image of the apathetic artist is inaccurate. - arts give you a drive like none other, and it encourages personal growth and discovery to make for better, more empathetic and well-rounded people.

[Nbadan]

I call BS. Sports develop of a lot of skills that are vital in the workplace and in life (teamwork, working with colleages with differing backgrounds, hard work, self-motivation, self-discipline, building trust and professional relationships). Dan, did you play team sports at a varsity level? There is a reason that people who did not play (several) sports don't like them, and people who did look back fondly on them. Maybe you never possessed athletic skill (which is still no reason not to try to find a sport you like), were jealous of athletes, or are snobby and believe that "jocks" are all stupid. Athletes are a cross-section of society; there are good and bad, smart and stupid. But the benefit of team sports will never change.

I played sports also, lettered as a sophmore in Football and a junior in basketball. , I even made All-city. Perhaps SWC Bonfire misunderstood my point. Sports can be beneficial, it teaches team-work, self-discipline, and hard-work, but my point was that there is an over-emphasis on sports as opposed to other disciplines that could benefit students more after HS.

[travis2]

Yes, those extra fundraisers are important, because you're never going to get that much fine arts money from the state. I went to art boot-camp for high school (hspva.org) where we had fine arts classes in our specific discipline for three hours a day in addition to the required state degree plan - and I can tell you that school was the most insane group of over achievers ever. I had a 4.2 GPA out of 5 from taking AP classes and I just missed being in the top half of my class. Fine arts programs encourage young people to be creative problem solvers and to achieve beyond what is expected. A lot of people were surprised that so much of the school's population was like that, but really, the image of the apathetic artist is inaccurate. - arts give you a drive like none other, and it encourages personal growth and discovery to make for better, more empathetic and well-rounded people.

My kids (well, one of them...both next year) go to school in an 8-block system. Band "class" is a 2-block class...so it's 90 (or is it 75?) minutes every day. However, during marching season, they have another couple of hours AFTER school, practicing the routine (which gets changes on a near daily basis), adding pieces, stuff like that. Marching band isn't just for football anymore...there's an extensive compe ion schedule as well.

During concert season, they don't have the structured after school time...but fairly extensive practice is still required (concert bands compete too...not just marching bands).

I completely agree about fine arts feeding into other subjects. Both my kids are AP-track (my younger one is G/T as well).

[Jekka]

My kids (well, one of them...both next year) go to school in an 8-block system. Band "class" is a 2-block class...so it's 90 (or is it 75?) minutes every day. However, during marching season, they have another couple of hours AFTER school, practicing the routine (which gets changes on a near daily basis), adding pieces, stuff like that. Marching band isn't just for football anymore...there's an extensive compe ion schedule as well.

During concert season, they don't have the structured after school time...but fairly extensive practice is still required (concert bands compete too...not just marching bands).

I completely agree about fine arts feeding into other subjects. Both my kids are AP-track (my younger one is G/T as well).

AP is great for getting out of college classes and adding to your resume, but take this from someone who went through G.T./SIGHTS/AP , while you get a great education at schools that have big programs for it, it completely screws up your ranking unless you're at the very top of the top that you're already in - and with Texas' top ten percent rule, I knew a lot of people that had 4.5's and up who didn't get into schools like UT (but DID get into schools like Oberlin and Sarah Lawrence) because people with 3.5's who didn't do things like AP went to schools with lower achievement standards and took up all the spots. I didn't get into UT Austin with a 4.2, advanced fine arts curriculum, and 400+ hours of community service. So, word to the wise, be careful about state schools with the big AP programs - I hope your kids never have that problem though, and may they benefit from my experience.

Edit: Another thing to be careful of with the AP programs is burnout. I know a lot of people who put themselves through too much AP and were exhausted by the time college came around.

[travis2]

AP is great for getting out of college classes and adding to your resume, but take this from someone who went through G.T./SIGHTS/AP , while you get a great education at schools that have big programs for it, it completely screws up your ranking unless you're at the very top of the top that you're already in - and with Texas' top ten percent rule, I knew a lot of people that had 4.5's and up who didn't get into schools like UT (but DID get into schools like Oberlin and Sarah Lawrence) because people with 3.5's who didn't do things like AP went to schools with lower achievement standards and took up all the spots. I didn't get into UT Austin with a 4.2, advanced fine arts curriculum, and 400+ hours of community service. So, word to the wise, be careful about state schools with the big AP programs - I hope your kids never have that problem though, and may they benefit from my experience.

Edit: Another thing to be careful of with the AP programs is burnout. I know a lot of people who put themselves through too much AP and were exhausted by the time college came around.

My oldest isn't all that interested in either Austin or CS...looking smaller. And I don't know about the school you went to, but honors/GT/pre-AP/AP courses have a GPA multiplier applied to them. (I think it's 1.2?) So that helps in the GPA/ranking area.

I hear you about burnout...I know the feeling.

[Clandestino]

yeah, in my school if you took honors courses you got a little extra.

[Gatita]

60,000 equals middleclass? You gotta be joking.

[Jekka]

My oldest isn't all that interested in either Austin or CS...looking smaller. And I don't know about the school you went to, but honors/GT/pre-AP/AP courses have a GPA multiplier applied to them. (I think it's 1.2?) So that helps in the GPA/ranking area.

I hear you about burnout...I know the feeling.

When I was in high school, the GPA system was 4.0 for a regular class and 5.0 for an AP/pre-AP class, and it was done on an individual class basis and averaged.

I think burnout is really underrated, too, when it comes to these AP-type programs; it's physically and mentally draining. It's hard to keep up that pace when you're in those programs from even elementary schools in many cases. Those programs are important, but I think there's a minority of kids that get pushed too hard - thus the increase of high school stress and nervous breakdowns.

It's sad though that for the most part there is such a huge divide between regular and AP programs - that being that kids in regular programs often don't know fundamentals when they go to college and have to play catch-up while their peers from AP are testing out of those basic classes before they even get there. The regular curriculum needs to be accelerated.

[travis2]

When I was in high school, the GPA system was 4.0 for a regular class and 5.0 for an AP/pre-AP class, and it was done on an individual class basis and averaged.

I think burnout is really underrated, too, when it comes to these AP-type programs; it's physically and mentally draining. It's hard to keep up that pace when you're in those programs from even elementary schools in many cases. Those programs are important, but I think there's a minority of kids that get pushed too hard - thus the increase of high school stress and nervous breakdowns.

It's sad though that for the most part there is such a huge divide between regular and AP programs - that being that kids in regular programs often don't know fundamentals when they go to college and have to play catch-up while their peers from AP are testing out of those basic classes before they even get there. The regular curriculum needs to be accelerated.

My kids' GPA is on a 100-point system.

Believe me...when we sit down with the kids to go over their schedule choices for the next year, workload is definitely a concern. We keep an eye on it during the year as well. Problem is, sometimes the first sign that the workload is too much is when they hit the wall. (Luckily that hasn't happened)

Don't even get me started on what passes for "regular" classes. Sometimes I think a 1.2 GPA multiplier isn't enough!

[travis2]

60,000 equals middleclass? You gotta be joking.

Uhhhhhh....no, no joke. Trust me...60k sure ain't rich.

[Jekka]

My kids' GPA is on a 100-point system.

Believe me...when we sit down with the kids to go over their schedule choices for the next year, workload is definitely a concern. We keep an eye on it during the year as well. Problem is, sometimes the first sign that the workload is too much is when they hit the wall. (Luckily that hasn't happened)

Yeah, walls are pretty hard to bounce back from, you can ask the therapists of several friends who went to both my school and different AP schools than mine. Some people both amaze and disgust me with their abilities to withstand it all though.

Uhhhhhh....no, no joke. Trust me...60k sure ain't rich.

And yet after you fill out your FAFSA, the government is going to ask you to contribute something like $20,000 of it. Which is where the swamp of loans come in.

[Clandestino]

i have a bad ass situation. i own a home(well a mortgage), so i filled out a "special situations" sheet stating that i had excessive debt. i get my gi bill, federal grants, academic scholarships and even am offered subsidized loans.. i love it!

[Gatita]

Uhhhhhh....no, no joke. Trust me...60k sure ain't rich.

I know what 60k is and it isn't jack. Middleclass my foot.

[MannyIsGod]

60k as a combined income isn't these days.