BTW, maybe at 22 years old I'm a bit too young, but I'm surprised at people saying Sabonis. I just vaguely remember him as a guy that played for Portland when I was little. And I really only remember him because of his name.
If you want to really count the international players, it's Tim or Hakeem in a landslide. No other player comes close. Patrick Ewing also counts (Jamaica), but he wasn't the caliber of Tim and Hakeem.
If you want to only count players that played in Europe before coming to the US, the I can see Gino and Dirk being in the conversation. However, Gino isn't a European player because he's from Argentina. But saying European players is most commonly referred to someone who played in the Euro leagues (like Splitter too).
1 hard to tell how good Sabonis was b/c he never plated vs NBA comp until late oblige when he didn't impress; can't just assume his physical gifts would translate;
2 Drazen was a great jump shooter like a young Peja but Manu is much, much more
3 Detlef was a marginally good player but no Manu
4 Dirk is every bit as good as Manu and probably better, but never had a TD or a TP
Dirk is not an all aroud player, Manu can do everything on a basketball court, even feed hist team mates and contribute without having the ball in his hands.
BTW, maybe at 22 years old I'm a bit too young, but I'm surprised at people saying Sabonis. I just vaguely remember him as a guy that played for Portland when I was little. And I really only remember him because of his name.
Living in Portland at the time I saw a quite a few games with Sabonis. To say he was a good passer is an understatement. Great hands, touch, and BB IQ. Fun to watch with his passes as Manu is. And he was a big guy. Unfortunately his knees were shot and it was the end of this career.
I don't know if it was posted, but Barkley and Kenny Smith were discussing last night on who is best foreign player of all time.
Kenny Smith picks Dirk, Charles picks Manu.
IMHO neither is the best of all time. Manu is such a great compe or, his lacks on offense are compensated by his effort and will to win which are probably what makes him so great. Every night he amaze me even more on how badly he wants to win. I don't know where the he learned to played like that.
He might be the most complete player in the NBA, the most versatile in terms of being useful to a team but I don't know if he qualifies as the best of all time. Maybe he does, and Im wrong. Certainly he deserves the discussion though. But if there's anything he's the best at is the effort to win.
Dirk is just a great offensive player but he's won nothing and he's D-less.
This is like the old Wilt vs Russell debate...........
I love Wilt but i have to say, Russell was the greatest
The most talented international player of all time was
Arvydas Sabonis, the complete center , the POINt center!!!!
but i have to say,
that Manu is the greatest! the ferocious desire to win
The word "foreign" and "international" needs planty of defining. Foreign to who and in what sense ? Hakeem/Duncan kinda foreign or Manu/Dirk type?
International ? Best international player might be Jordan since he played in Olympics, etc. International as in country v country compe ion
For this debate, i guess a better baromenter is someone who has played in other leagues as well as NBA in order to qualify. In that case, Manu v Dirk will be the correct matchup. Manu just edge it for me ... with all the hardware and for being a non-choker.
Manu doesn't really have the stats to back up being the best.
That said, if I have to assemble a team to win one game, or one series, and have to pick one international player ( don't count Tim, Hakeem ), then I'd take Manu, no questions asked. Dirk is great, but when his shot's not falling he's not helping much, whereas even if Manu's shot is off you know he'll still find multiple ways to contribute.
Manu is not a all offensive player, like Drazen Petrovic was, but he is a lot more complete.
And he did score +40 points vs Lebron once if I'm not wrong and he scored +30 vs Kobe a few times... quite impressive when your are not the first option of the team if you ask me (this is the first year Manu is unquestionably the number 1 option).
Also, the spurs where up to this year, a slow team, no the greatest place to score +40.
Great players don't get bored or lazy about their game. The greatest players play just as hard in a laugher as a squeaker because it is their character, not just their skills, that set them above the rest.
IMO by the strictest definition of international, Hakeem is 1a and Tim is 1b.
if you only consider guys who arrived to the NBA as pros, then Dirk gets the nod. IMO both Pau and Manu are not far behind him. Also, I think Dirk is such an unconventional player that sometimes the matchup mismatches he creates can be more detrimental than beneficial, and because of that for certain teams Pau and Manu who play their positions in a more traditional style can be a better fit. But overall talent level Dirk is better than both, its just extremely rare for a guy his size to be that coordinated. he is extremely efficient and extremely consistent, Pau and Manu are better all around but Dirk's scoring advantage is too much for them to overcome.
Sabonis.He was the best in Europe in the mid-90's and he wasn't in his prime.His knees were broken since 1987.
Manu was a big star here but he never was as dominant as Sabas was.
Petrovic was a beast in Europe.He had more than one game with 60 points playing euroleague.He had the best talent but he didn't play enough time in the NBA.In New Jersey he had 2 seasons over 20 ppg (20,6 and 22,3) but he was 28 and 29.His prime was over.
Imo Petrovic or Sabas still being the best players of the history from Europe but Dirk or Pau are pretty close.Same Manu but he's from South America.
Kukoc,Divac or TP were/is one step behind but close to them.
Players like Stojakovic or Radjawould be next along Navarro,Bodiroga,Djordjevic or Papaloukas .
Now there are young players like Teodosic who could be in my ranking in the future.
Danilovic,Marciulonis,Herreros,San Epifanio....some of them has to be in my list too
Manu has never had to play in the NBA without Duncan as a teammate. That obviously contributes to his success.
I would pick Hakeem no contest- unless by international you mean players who did not go to college in the US, as well.
By being strictly logical, International player should exclude any player who was in any of the dream teams, no matter if he was born outside USA.....
That should rule out players like Tim, Kobe or the Dream....
I haven't read the whole thread, butr the few posts read say me that you're forgetting a really international player STEVE NASH...who would be in the same league as Manu or Dirk.
I also noticed the strange fact that nobody was talking about Nash.
It's always going to be hard comparing guys like Dirk and Manu because their roles have always been different. If Manu was option #1 on a team of scrubs I'm not sure he would do much. I really love having Manu on the Spurs because of his intangibles, but if others didn't carry the load for 47 minutes there would be no Manu antics in the clutch.
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