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  1. #26
    Believe. mingus's Avatar
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    defensively the team sucks, esp on the perimter and they were touted as a great offensive team this season too, but they struggled to get easy buckets around the rim in the playoffs. Duncan can't score nearly as effectively as he used to, which was a big problem. they're going to need Splitter to be somewhat if a reliable post threat next year. maybe go for 12-14 a game on ~50% shooting while Duncan keeps his 13 ppg.

  2. #27
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    I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt for now and presume he's just being typical Pop, being the contrarian, not trying to get the fans hopes up, etc. In his interview with the E-N a few weeks ago, he made it clear that they're determined to get back to being a top 5-7 defensive team. That's not possible with how they're currently constructed. He also made it clear that they don't have the type of starting four they'd prefer.

    We'll know if they're trading for a big by no later than June 30th (McDyess' contract becomes fully guaranteed July 1st). But it's more likely we'll know by the draft, which is on the 23rd.

    He can't honestly believe what he's saying. I've got to believe he knows it's more about personnel than players needing to play better. Sure, they had some bad luck, as far as injuries to their two best players late in the season, but they're now 2-8 in their last 10 playoff games and 12-21 since beating the Suns in '08. So this wasn't a one off that can be explained away by "players needing to play better and bad luck".

  3. #28
    Robert Horry mode ohmwrecker's Avatar
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    Pop is not going to show his hand. He has to realize that there are some severe personnel issues with the Spurs, but there is also a kernel of truth there as well. Every single player on the Spurs, top to bottom, failed to play to their potential and certainly beyond in the series with Memphis. While Memphis got max potential out of every one of their players. The Spurs got outplayed. To a man. Period.

    The best team in the world cannot win in that scenario.

  4. #29
    Bruce Almighty Bruno's Avatar
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    With Pop you never know if he is saying what he thinks. Saying that the team is fine put Spurs in a better situation on the trade market and to sell season tickets.

    Saying that, if Pop thinks what he said, it's a true problem. A coach should be hungry and angry after this bad season and Pop clearly isn't in that state of mind. I have some doubts about his motivation. Maybe Spurs need to hire a high level assistant who could challenge him.

  5. #30
    Lol Crews jjktkk's Avatar
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    It seems that Pop beleives that if the Spurs were completely healthy, they would of beaten Memphis. Meh, delusional, I would of thought the same as well.

  6. #31
    silverblk mystix
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    Pop was asked during the playoffs what he would say to his players before a big game...to motivate them...

    Pop's answer: "Nothing-they are professionals!"

    Well these "professionals" did not motivate themselves enough---or at all...

    So...

    A) is Pop going to keep these underperforming and unmotivated players on the team and HOPE that THIS TIME they perform...after 4 years of failure?

    B) Is Pop going to take responsibility and "Motivate"

    C) Is Pop going to take responsibility for re-signing these players?

    D) Is Pop going to see the obvious and get new players, motivate these new players, and try to stay ahead of the compe ion instead of 3-4 years behind?

    E) Is Pop going to retire and/or move to the front office and allow a young & motivated coach to take over?

    F) Do NOTHING!

  7. #32
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    fiction and A) and F)

  8. #33
    I'm poplovin' it! TJastal's Avatar
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    I've never been one to be so outspoken about Pop because I know that he sees more than we do in practice, in the locker rooms, etc. However, I think he's ing idiot if he maintains that having Bonner play in crucial minutes is a good idea. RJ doesn't produce as much as we'd like, but I don't feel that he's nearly as detrimental to the team as Matt Bonner is when he's not hitting his 3 ball. Of course, this occurs once the playoff lights are turned on. When Pop decided to play Splitter halfway through the series, you knew that he finally saw his error. The problem is that he kept playing Bonner. This team has weaknesses, yes, but if we hadn't gotten used to Bonner being in the game throughout the season and basically being on fire from downtown, then we would have had to find other ways to win. Once we didn't have that three-ball anymore, the offense was garbage because nobody knew what else to do.
    +1

    Don't normally agree with you, but this is spot-on. That's the hidden danger of using a guy in the regular season rotation that can't be depended upon in a playoff setting. Whatever few extra regular season victories you get from this method absolutely pales in comparison to the disaster of trying to integrate other guys at the last second in the middle of a playoff series.

  9. #34
    I'm poplovin' it! TJastal's Avatar
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    Pop was asked during the playoffs what he would say to his players before a big game...to motivate them...

    Pop's answer: "Nothing-they are professionals!"

    Well these "professionals" did not motivate themselves enough---or at all...

    So...

    A) is Pop going to keep these underperforming and unmotivated players on the team and HOPE that THIS TIME they perform...after 4 years of failure?

    B) Is Pop going to take responsibility and "Motivate"

    C) Is Pop going to take responsibility for re-signing these players?

    D) Is Pop going to see the obvious and get new players, motivate these new players, and try to stay ahead of the compe ion instead of 3-4 years behind?

    E) Is Pop going to retire and/or move to the front office and allow a young & motivated coach to take over?

    F) Do NOTHING!
    Funny how nothing is ever Pop's responsibility, despite the fact he wanted all the responsibility as GM/Coach/etc.

  10. #35
    I'm poplovin' it! TJastal's Avatar
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    Maybe Spurs need to hire a high level assistant who could replace him.
    Fixed.

  11. #36
    Believe. Fabbs's Avatar
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    "I'll never have it better then this, so I'm going to enjoy it while it's here."
    Obviously this dipstick will continue to sit on his fat paychecks and do nothing to reverse the losing. Bonner will be doing 20 playoff minutes per game next year too. Soft 30.

    What a fluff piece too. Altho props Harris for at least bringing the subject of a big up.

  12. #37
    wemby enjoyer 100%duncan's Avatar
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    fact, bad decisions down the stretch cost us. Game 3, nuff said

  13. #38
    Believe. all_heart's Avatar
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    What has happened to the Spurs is obvious:
    1. The core got older.
    2. RJ replaced Bowen.
    3. Bonner replaced Horry (but with more minutes).

    The Big 3 aren't the big 3 anymore, we need some serious talent on this team as well as athleticism of course. Blair is too small against the better teams. Neal and Anderson were the only bright spots this season. Splitter unfortunately was a non-factor this year. They better make some good moves or they are going to find it mighty hard to put asses into seats. Pop is either living in the past and/or knows good moves may be impossible to make. The Grizzlies front court killed us, not Manu's elbow...

  14. #39
    Believe. ++SaiNt TiAg0++'s Avatar
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    pop thinks its the championship years and everything he says turns to scripture, he's either telling the radio these things in order to get good value and that piece of ass that he calls bonner. or others and needs to remain positive about their involvement w/the team.

    think about it were not just any team were still for dumb/oblivious reason a measuring stick around this league and front offices will say well if he cant be disciplined by pop...well what makes you think he'll be coachable here ????

    so in a way i can see pop doing old school genius tricks if he hasn't killed all those amazing brain cells lol with ty ass red wine, im sorry but im all for a new coach better now than dragging it out. stick a fork in pop if we dont get youth and defense this summer then pop MUST BE FIRED

  15. #40
    Boring = 4 Rings SA210's Avatar
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    That is all.

  16. #41
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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  17. #42
    Lab Animal Capt Bringdown's Avatar
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    Spurs fans need to get over themselves. Pop's got a system.


  18. #43
    Starter off the bench Uriel's Avatar
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    The truth probably lies somewhere in between, but what I'm most interested to know is why so-called thinking Spurs fans are so pessimistic about the state of the team.

    Lambast him all you want, but Pop has a better intuitive grasp of the team and the landscape of the NBA than any of us could ever dream of, and he isn't incorrect when he remarks that this team could have gone further in the playoffs had things turned out differently.

    The team won 61 games and was on pace for 70 wins for much of the season before injuries down the stretch (particularly to Duncan and Ginobili) derailed them down the stretch and seriously tampered with the rhythm that they had established throughout the course of the season. In fact, going over many of his claims, I'm inclined to lean more towards fact than fiction:

    1. If Manu hadn't been injured, we wouldn't have lost the Grizzlies series. AGREE.
    - Is there really any doubt about this? Manu when at his best is a game changer, and he played in the series with what we later found out essentially amounted to a broken arm. If he had played in game 1, cir stances would have been dramatically different, and a win (not implausible given Shane Battier needed to hit a dagger 3 down the stretch for them to pull it off) would almost certainly have changed the entire complexion of the series.

    2. When we win, we're experienced. When we lose, we're old and unathletic. AGREE.
    - It's worth noting that Dallas and Miami are two of the oldest teams in the NBA, even when adjusted for minutes weighted by player. By comparison, we're far younger now than we were during the years when we won championships. In fact, it's been proven throughout history that the veteran teams get the job done while the younger teams wallow in defeat. The losingest team in the NBA this year? The Minnesota Timberwolves, the youngest team and among the most athletic teams in the league.

    3. We were good enough to make a deep playoff run this year. AGREE.
    Tony Parker himself acknowledged that the Grizzles were merely a tough matchup for us and that Oklahoma and Dallas would've been easier. There is actually evidence to back up this claim. During the season series, we swept the Thunder 3 - 0 and won against Dallas 3 - 1 (including both games on the road).

    And the best part about all this is that Pop and RC mutually acknowledge that they will make changes in the offseason to make this team even better. As currently constructed, I think this team, at its best, is much better than most people here seem to give it credit for and could have gone much further in the playoffs had cir stances been different. Did they overachieve when they won 61 games? Probably. But that doesn't change the fact that they nevertheless achieved 61 wins, and could actually have won much more if "poor play and injuries" hadn't completely thrown their rhythm off balance. The latter point is especially poignant when one believes that 61 wins in and of itself is more than the team was capable of in the first place.

    Which leads me to my next point: Why does everyone (in particular the more reputable posters here on SpursTalk) seem to think that this team is broken beyond repair and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up? Fielding the exact same team next season, even with internal improvement from young players, will likely not be enough for it to be a serious contender for a championship. But that doesn't mean you have to fire Pop, trade Tim, and start stashing draft picks and young players for the future in an effort to become compe ive down the road once again.

    Don't get me wrong. It's not like I'm not saying that I'm absolute certain this team will win the le next year. But if the front office, which has earned the reputation as being the best in the league, and for good reason too, makes the right kind of moves, then I certainly think we can continue to be compe ive. Just because they suffered a first round exit, Spurs fans seem to have forgotten how spoiled they have been and how extraordinary the organization and the people who run it are.
    Last edited by Uriel; 06-11-2011 at 06:05 AM.

  19. #44
    silverblk mystix
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    The truth probably lies somewhere in between, but what I'm most interested to know is why so-called thinking Spurs fans are so pessimistic about the state of the team.

    Lambast him all you want, but Pop has a better intuitive grasp of the team and the landscape of the NBA than any of us could ever dream of, and he isn't incorrect when he remarks that this team could have gone further in the playoffs had things turned differently.

    The team won 61 games and was on pace for 70 wins for much of the season before injuries down the stretch (particularly to Duncan and Ginobili) derailed them down the stretch and seriously tampered with the rhythm that they had established throughout the course of the season. In fact, going over many of his claims, I'm inclined to lean more towards fact than fiction:

    1. If Manu hadn't been injured, we wouldn't have lost the Grizzlies series. AGREE.
    - Is there really any doubt about this? Manu when at his best is a game changer, and he played in the series with what we later found out essentially amounted to a broken arm. If he had played in game 1, cir stances would have been dramatically different, and a win (not implausible given Shane Battier needed to hit a dagger 3 down the stretch for them to pull it off) would almost certainly have changed the entire complexion of the series.

    2. When we win, we're experienced. When we lose, we're old and unathletic. AGREE.
    - It's worth noting that Dallas and Miami are two of the oldest teams in the NBA, even when adjusted for minutes weighted by player. By comparison, we're far younger now than we were during the years when we won championships. In fact, it's been proven throughout history that the veteran teams get the job done while the younger teams wallow in defeat. The losingest team in the NBA this year? The Minnesota Timberwolves, the youngest team and among the most athletic teams in the league.

    3. We were good enough to make a deep playoff run this year. AGREE.
    Tony Parker himself acknowledged that the Grizzles were merely a tough matchup for us and that Oklahoma and Dallas would've been easier. There is actually evidence to back up this claim. During the season series, we swept the Thunder 3 - 0 and won against Dallas 3 - 1 (including both games on the road).

    And the best part about all this is that Pop and RC mutually acknowledge that they will make changes in the offseason to make this team even better. As currently constructed, I think this team, at its best, is much better than most people here seem to give it credit for and could have gone much further in the playoffs had cir stances been different. Did they overachieve when they won 61 games? Probably. But that doesn't change the fact that they did anyway, and could have won much more if "poor play and injuries" hadn't completely thrown it off balance.

    Which leads me to my next point: Why does everyone (in particular the more reputable posters here on SpursTalk) seem to think that this team is broken beyond repair and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up or something? Fielding the exact same team next season, even with internal improvement from young players, will likely not be enough for it to be a serious contender for a championship. But that doesn't mean you have to fire Pop, trade Tim, and start stashing draft picks and young players for the future right away.

    Don't get me wrong. It's not like I'm not saying that I'm absolute certain this team will win the le next year. But if the front office, which has earned the reputation as the best in the league, and for good reason, makes the right kind of moves, then I certainly think we can continue to be compe ive. Just because they suffered a first round exit, Spurs fans seem to have forgotten how spoiled they are and how extraordinary an organization their favorite team operates in is.
    WHY?

    Because, if you were watching, Pop has consistently made baffling decision after baffling decision. The people who would (and never will) never question Pop will just continue to say what you already said. Pop knows better than all of us.

    The people who gave Pop the benefit of the doubt when Pop benched Bowen in favor of Finley (and who would scream at Bowen for ONE missed assignment---and promptly bench him--yet allow Finley to remain on the floor after being torched at will by EVERYONE!), or when Pop went small and never played Rasho, Nazr, etc... in the playoffs after a solid season of semi-tall ball and went micro small...
    Or when Pop (once Finley betrayed Pop & the team) turned to BONNER and overplayed him until the spurs were so weak defensively that an 8th seed TANKED to play the spurs....

    Well these people finally decided that it wasn't just an aberration...Pop has completely reversed course from what won 4 les in the first place...

    To hear Pop parroting the same in 2008,2009,2010 & now 2011..."when we win we're experienced...when we lose we're old"..."we don't need to change the big 3"... "we just didn't make shots".... "our defense was ok-but they played better"....blah-blah....

    To hear this year in and year out after Bonner is choking yet again...would pretty much tell you that Pop is going to run this team into the in' ground into continued mediocrity.

    Unless you think that just making the playoffs is a real accomplishment.

  20. #45
    I'm poplovin' it! TJastal's Avatar
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    WHY?

    Because, if you were watching, Pop has consistently made baffling decision after baffling decision. The people who would (and never will) never question Pop will just continue to say what you already said. Pop knows better than all of us.

    The people who gave Pop the benefit of the doubt when Pop benched Bowen in favor of Finley (and who would scream at Bowen for ONE missed assignment---and promptly bench him--yet allow Finley to remain on the floor after being torched at will by EVERYONE!), or when Pop went small and never played Rasho, Nazr, etc... in the playoffs after a solid season of semi-tall ball and went micro small...
    Or when Pop (once Finley betrayed Pop & the team) turned to BONNER and overplayed him until the spurs were so weak defensively that an 8th seed TANKED to play the spurs....

    Well these people finally decided that it wasn't just an aberration...Pop has completely reversed course from what won 4 les in the first place...

    To hear Pop parroting the same in 2008,2009,2010 & now 2011..."when we win we're experienced...when we lose we're old"..."we don't need to change the big 3"... "we just didn't make shots".... "our defense was ok-but they played better"....blah-blah....

    To hear this year in and year out after Bonner is choking yet again...would pretty much tell you that Pop is going to run this team into the in' ground into continued mediocrity.

    Unless you think that just making the playoffs is a real accomplishment.
    +1
    This long-winded popsucker is one of the more annoying varieties on the forum (they come in all shapes and sizes). At least he preludes his sermon by saying "the truth probably lies somewhere in between, but...", which is an obvious tip-off that the rest of his spiel is gonna be filled with the same ol' canards & bull we've come to expect from these types, just rehashed and updated to fit the current landscape.

  21. #46
    Starter off the bench Uriel's Avatar
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    WHY?

    Because, if you were watching, Pop has consistently made baffling decision after baffling decision. The people who would (and never will) never question Pop will just continue to say what you already said. Pop knows better than all of us.

    The people who gave Pop the benefit of the doubt when Pop benched Bowen in favor of Finley (and who would scream at Bowen for ONE missed assignment---and promptly bench him--yet allow Finley to remain on the floor after being torched at will by EVERYONE!), or when Pop went small and never played Rasho, Nazr, etc... in the playoffs after a solid season of semi-tall ball and went micro small...
    Or when Pop (once Finley betrayed Pop & the team) turned to BONNER and overplayed him until the spurs were so weak defensively that an 8th seed TANKED to play the spurs....

    Well these people finally decided that it wasn't just an aberration...Pop has completely reversed course from what won 4 les in the first place...

    To hear Pop parroting the same in 2008,2009,2010 & now 2011..."when we win we're experienced...when we lose we're old"..."we don't need to change the big 3"... "we just didn't make shots".... "our defense was ok-but they played better"....blah-blah....

    To hear this year in and year out after Bonner is choking yet again...would pretty much tell you that Pop is going to run this team into the in' ground into continued mediocrity.

    Unless you think that just making the playoffs is a real accomplishment.
    I'm not saying Pop is above criticism. All I'm saying is, he isn't spewing out the arbitrary nonsense or pure fiction many people on this message board seem to claim he is. And the entirety of your argument seems to consist of subjective opinion backed by offhand anecdotes that seems predicated on the assumption that the aforementioned was right in the first place, though with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Hence, your argument is self-contradictory.

    +1
    This long-winded popsucker is one of the more annoying varieties on the forum (they come in all shapes and sizes). At least he preludes his sermon by saying "the truth probably lies somewhere in between, but...", which is an obvious tip-off that the rest of his spiel is gonna be filled with the same ol' canards & bull we've come to expect from these types, just rehashed and updated to fit the current landscape.
    Ad hominem. Personal attack. Hasty generalization. Slippery slope. Post hoc. Poisoning the well. Red herring. I could go on, but I think it would be better if you simply read up on your logical fallacies first before attempting to make a reasoned argument.

    Again, I'm not saying Pop was right. I never said that Pop shouldn't be criticized because of his credentials. I never said his assessment of the team was completely accurate. And I never acceded completely to his view of the state of the team. After all, I did qualify my "sermon" by stating that the truth probably lied somewhere in between, and I emphasize it once again. But just because we lost to the Memphis Grizzlies doesn't mean Pop is some psychotic, deranged lunatic who is completely incompetent as a basketball coach, and that he should be fired immediately, assuming of course that SpursTalk hasn't already done that in a literal sense. Criticizing his decisions which may have led to the result it eventually procured is perfectly fair. But demanding that the man's body be burned at the stake because he had the audacity to disagree, on the other hand, is just plain capricious.

  22. #47
    Starter off the bench Uriel's Avatar
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    SenorSpur, I posted this in the Matt Bonner thread in the Think Tank forum, but since you didn't respond, and since this post more or less applies to the topic of this thread anyway, I'm just going to go right ahead and post it here too.

    I will admit that Bonner's dufus running style and clumsy appearance doesn't do himself any justice. It certainly doesn't help his cause with most. However most reasonable people focus on production - or his case, the lack thereof.

    Of course, you are correct on one point. The decline in 3-pt shooting was team wide, but it affect Bonner more because 3-pt shooting is his ONLY skill - which makes him a severe on-court liability, when he's not hitting shots.

    As far as Bonner getting abused in the paint, that's not perception - that is cold-hearted reality. All anyone need to do is watch the playoff series versus the Grizzlies. At times, it was very easy to predict where the source of the Grizzlies low-post offense would originate - it was whoever Bonner was guarding, when he was in the game. When you're a one-dimensional, single-skilled player, who is also a defensive liability, in opposing players and coaches will zero in on that weakness.

    It's obvious to anyone watching that his playoff contributions have been left wanting. He's a decent role player, but he should not be a major rotation player on any team with championship aspirations. He's just not good enough. Meanwhile, Pop is wasting time and compromising his team's success by constantly rolling Bonner out there in clutch situation and expecting different results. All of which makes Pop an idiot. For such a smart man, Pop is giving in to the definition of idiocracy.

    Say whatever you want. It doesn't matter what happens during the regular season. All I know is what I see. It occurs every year about this time. It's an annual event just like the changing of the four seasons or the Swallows invading Capistrano. That is, when playoff time rolls around, when the lights get bright and the playoff pressure turns up, Matt Bonner is nowhere to be found. That, my friend, cannot be disputed.
    During the playoffs, 48 Minutes of wrote an excellent post en led, "Is Matt Bonner earning his minutes?" Here's an excerpt from it:
    Throughout the series, Memphis has relentlessly attacked Bonner on the block. But they’re actually not scoring as often as I would have guessed. According to Synergy Sports, this is how Bonner has fared in the post:

    Arthur – Miss J
    Arthur – Make J
    Randolph – TO
    Arthur – Miss 2
    Randolph – TO
    Gasol – And 1
    Gasol – Make Jumper
    Arthur – Make Jumper
    Arthur – Make Jumper
    Arthur – Miss Jumper
    Arthur – Miss Layup
    Gasol – TO
    Arthur – ISO +1

    In other words, in 13 defensive post possessions the Grizzlies scored on Bonner 6 times. Not great, but Bonner wasn’t obliterated either.
    As I have tried to argue, much of the criticism that has been levied at Matt Bonner has been excessive and, to a certain extent, unwarranted. The fact that Timothy Varner, the author of the article, would concede that he guessed Bonner was scored on more often in the post, only to have the stats repudiate that, lends credence to the notion that the criticism aimed at Bonner is grounded not so much in reality but perception.

    One particularly cogent argument that Bonner apologists have used all season long is his surprisingly and consistently high plus-minus rating. Of course, you did remark that what happens in the regular season is irrelevant to the discussion because, "When playoff time rolls around, when the lights get bright and the playoff pressure turns up, Matt Bonner is nowhere to be found." But a closer look at his plus-minus rating for the playoffs actually says otherwise.

    Of the 11 units that yielded a net positive plus-minus rating, Matt Bonner appeared in 7 of them, including the top 6. Granted, Bonner detractors will point to the fact that Bonner also appears in 7 out of the 12 units that yielded a negative rating. But, as Varner astutely pointed out in his blog post, "It doesn’t establish the illegitimacy of Bonner’s minutes, it only establishes that Coach Popovich must carefully deploy Matt Bonner. Matt Bonner, then, is a kind of high risk/high reward player. Used with the right combination of players, he’s a help. Used wrongly, he hurts the team."

    And this is exactly the point I've been trying to make all along. Matt Bonner hasn't succeeded in the postseason because he hasn't been put in a good position to do so. The fact that, when deployed with the right combination of players, he has been able to yield a positive plus-minus rating, and is featured in the 6 most effective units the team has used against the Grizzlies strongly suggests that, when used correctly, Bonner is more of an asset than a liability.

    It's worth noting that the latter observation still holds true in spite of the fact that Bonner shot only 33% from 3 in the playoffs this season. That means that, contrary to popular belief, he can still help put the team in a position to win even when he's not knocking down 3 pointers. At first, this may seem counterintuitive, but it's easy to forget that being a 3-point specializing big man comes with other sets of advantages.

    Matt Bonner spreads the floor, which, as I'm sure you're well aware, has the advantage of keeping the defense honest and luring big men away from the rim, making the penetrating of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili a lot more potent, as well as adding another dimension to the offense in the form of a big man's perimeter shot making. The fact that they haven't fallen nearly to the same extent in the playoffs doesn't take away from the reality that the mere potential for it to be used does go a long way to helping the Spurs offense, which has been the 2nd most efficient in the regular season in the NBA, keep chugging along. The fact that Bonner apologists have used this argument ad nauseam to the point of it being satirized here in SpursTalk should not take away from its significance.

    Now, with all that said, if Matt Bonner continues to be used ineffectively, does that make him a legitimate major role player in a team with championship aspirations? Probably not. But the fact that, when paired with the right players, he becomes a major asset to the team should, in and of itself, warrant his getting minutes in the playoffs.

    You called Pop and idiot for suc bing to the very definition of idiocy, and I'm fairly certain you alluded to Einstein here when he defined insanity as, "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." But I think it's actually the other way around. Pop would be insane to give Matt Bonner consistent regular season minutes when he led the league in 3-point percentage only to suddenly take that away in the playoffs when he finds himself unable to produce at the same rate. Because that, my friend, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If he's been reliable all season long for us, would it make sense to suddenly pull the plug on him when he's become part of the chemistry that has been developed as well as a major contributor to the team with the best regular season record in the conference, especially when one considers the intangibles he offers?

    I said this at the top of this excessively long post, and I'll say it again. Much of the criticism that has been levied at Matt Bonner is excessive, and to a certain extent, unjustified. Previously, I tried to argue that this could be a result of subtle forms of discrimination against his physical appearance. Though you did respond by stating that reasonable people like yourself ground this criticism on his production, or lack thereof, I have tried to show that this is in fact, not the case. Because when one looks at the evidence, one can unequivocally see that Matt Bonner has helped this team more than he has hurt it overall, and that his being lambasted is not grounded so much in reality as it is in perception.

  23. #48
    Big in Japan GSH's Avatar
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    Pop wisecracked through parts of that interview. But I didn't get the feeling that he was joking when he said, "We just needed guys to play better in the playoffs." And that's scary. The Spurs got their asses kicked in the playoffs, plain and simple. And the same team kicked their asses in the regular season. If guys would have played better... If they had been 100% healthy... If everything goes perfect, we could advance further into the playoffs. Well, If you want to be a coin-toss team, I guess that approach makes sense.

    Personally, I think the guy is in denial about the fact that Tim is aging. He has the utmost respect for Tim, as he should. (As everybody in the league should.) But I don't think he's willing to talk about the fact that every player eventually declines, and Tim is finally at that point. It's not about whether the team needs to get taller... they need to get a big, strong pipe-weilding mother... (sorry, Pulp Fiction flashback). They need a young, athletic big man to give Tim some help inside.

    A appreciate Pop's loyalty. But that's about all I can say for that interview. The parts that weren't joking were just stupid.

  24. #49
    I'm poplovin' it! TJastal's Avatar
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    I'm not saying Pop is above criticism. All I'm saying is, he isn't spewing out the arbitrary nonsense or pure fiction many people on this message board seem to claim he is. And the entirety of your argument seems to consist of subjective opinion backed by offhand anecdotes that seems predicated on the assumption that the aforementioned was right in the first place, though with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Hence, your argument is self-contradictory.



    Ad hominem. Personal attack. Hasty generalization. Slippery slope. Post hoc. Poisoning the well. Red herring. I could go on, but I think it would be better if you simply read up on your logical fallacies first before attempting to make a reasoned argument.

    Again, I'm not saying Pop was right. I never said that Pop shouldn't be criticized because of his credentials. I never said his assessment of the team was completely accurate. And I never acceded completely to his view of the state of the team. After all, I did qualify my "sermon" by stating that the truth probably lied somewhere in between, and I emphasize it once again. But just because we lost to the Memphis Grizzlies doesn't mean Pop is some psychotic, deranged lunatic who is completely incompetent as a basketball coach, and that he should be fired immediately, assuming of course that SpursTalk hasn't already done that in a literal sense. Criticizing his decisions which may have led to the result it eventually procured is perfectly fair. But demanding that the man's body be burned at the stake because he had the audacity to disagree, on the other hand, is just plain capricious.
    You're ac ulating an impress body of work here at spurstalk. I took the liberty to find some of your other "takes", seems you have a fondness for Matt Bonner of all people.

    Former quotes from pop/bonner apologist uriel:

    Maybe so, but I'm partial to intrinsically intelligent people. I wouldn't exactly refer to myself as a Matt Bonner apologist, but I don't think he's being judged as fairly as he could.

    His so-called "well-earned reputation as a playoff choker" should be looked at in the proper context, because the reality is, the stagnation that has occurred in 3-point shooting during the playoffs has mostly been team-wide. If I recall correctly, Manu Ginobili in a blog post even went so far as to say one of the primary reasons for their loss to the Grizzlies was the inability of everyone in the team, save for RJ (RJ!), to consistently rely on the weapon that had made them so deadly all regular season long.

    As for getting abused by post players, I think perception is key, and I think Matt Bonner is getting victimized somewhat by subtle forms of discrimination as a result of his physical appearance. I'm not saying Bonner is a great or even good post defender, but I think given the physical tools available to him, he's made the most of what he's had to at least be passable on that front. But the fact is, it's fairly easy to think otherwise because he doesn't fit the profile of a conventional big man; that is, he's white and has red hair. I mean, let's be honest here: if Matt Bonner looked like Shaq, he wouldn't be accused of getting "abused" on the post nearly to the same extent. But because he looks soft and unintimidating in every conceivable way, then he becomes an easier target for criticism in that area.

    As an aside, if you don't buy the notion that first impressions or physical appearance plays that big of a role in life, then may I recommend Blink by Malcolm Gladwell?
    That's honestly a big part of the reason why I'm so proud to be a Spurs fan. Anyone can put together a team of talented knuckleheads to fill the roster, but the fact that the Spurs can create a culture that breeds grounded, professional people with positive off-the-court attributes and still be among the winningest franchises in professional sports speaks volumes about the laudability of the Spurs' model.

    Speaking of Mensa scores, Matt Bonner has an SAT score of 1350 which when converted to IQ measures out at 139 at a standard deviation of 15. The minimum for admission into Mensa given that standard deviation is 130. That means he's more than smart enough to join a high IQ society that mandates one's IQ be higher than 98% of the world population. 98%.
    IQ don't mean squat if you lack natural ability. Bonner should stayed in the academic field tbh.

  25. #50
    I'm poplovin' it! TJastal's Avatar
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    SenorSpur, I posted this in the Matt Bonner thread in the Think Tank forum, but since you didn't respond, and since this post more or less applies to the topic of this thread anyway, I'm just going to go right ahead and post it here too.



    During the playoffs, 48 Minutes of wrote an excellent post en led, "Is Matt Bonner earning his minutes?" Here's an excerpt from it:
    As I have tried to argue, much of the criticism that has been levied at Matt Bonner has been excessive and, to a certain extent, unwarranted. The fact that Timothy Varner, the author of the article, would concede that he guessed Bonner was scored on more often in the post, only to have the stats repudiate that, lends credence to the notion that the criticism aimed at Bonner is grounded not so much in reality but perception.

    One particularly cogent argument that Bonner apologists have used all season long is his surprisingly and consistently high plus-minus rating. Of course, you did remark that what happens in the regular season is irrelevant to the discussion because, "When playoff time rolls around, when the lights get bright and the playoff pressure turns up, Matt Bonner is nowhere to be found." But a closer look at his plus-minus rating for the playoffs actually says otherwise.

    Of the 11 units that yielded a net positive plus-minus rating, Matt Bonner appeared in 7 of them, including the top 6. Granted, Bonner detractors will point to the fact that Bonner also appears in 7 out of the 12 units that yielded a negative rating. But, as Varner astutely pointed out in his blog post, "It doesn’t establish the illegitimacy of Bonner’s minutes, it only establishes that Coach Popovich must carefully deploy Matt Bonner. Matt Bonner, then, is a kind of high risk/high reward player. Used with the right combination of players, he’s a help. Used wrongly, he hurts the team."

    And this is exactly the point I've been trying to make all along. Matt Bonner hasn't succeeded in the postseason because he hasn't been put in a good position to do so. The fact that, when deployed with the right combination of players, he has been able to yield a positive plus-minus rating, and is featured in the 6 most effective units the team has used against the Grizzlies strongly suggests that, when used correctly, Bonner is more of an asset than a liability.

    It's worth noting that the latter observation still holds true in spite of the fact that Bonner shot only 33% from 3 in the playoffs this season. That means that, contrary to popular belief, he can still help put the team in a position to win even when he's not knocking down 3 pointers. At first, this may seem counterintuitive, but it's easy to forget that being a 3-point specializing big man comes with other sets of advantages.

    Matt Bonner spreads the floor, which, as I'm sure you're well aware, has the advantage of keeping the defense honest and luring big men away from the rim, making the penetrating of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili a lot more potent, as well as adding another dimension to the offense in the form of a big man's perimeter shot making. The fact that they haven't fallen nearly to the same extent in the playoffs doesn't take away from the reality that the mere potential for it to be used does go a long way to helping the Spurs offense, which has been the 2nd most efficient in the regular season in the NBA, keep chugging along. The fact that Bonner apologists have used this argument ad nauseam to the point of it being satirized here in SpursTalk should not take away from its significance.

    Now, with all that said, if Matt Bonner continues to be used ineffectively, does that make him a legitimate major role player in a team with championship aspirations? Probably not. But the fact that, when paired with the right players, he becomes a major asset to the team should, in and of itself, warrant his getting minutes in the playoffs.

    You called Pop and idiot for suc bing to the very definition of idiocy, and I'm fairly certain you alluded to Einstein here when he defined insanity as, "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." But I think it's actually the other way around. Pop would be insane to give Matt Bonner consistent regular season minutes when he led the league in 3-point percentage only to suddenly take that away in the playoffs when he finds himself unable to produce at the same rate. Because that, my friend, is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If he's been reliable all season long for us, would it make sense to suddenly pull the plug on him when he's become part of the chemistry that has been developed as well as a major contributor to the team with the best regular season record in the conference, especially when one considers the intangibles he offers?

    I said this at the top of this excessively long post, and I'll say it again. Much of the criticism that has been levied at Matt Bonner is excessive, and to a certain extent, unjustified. Previously, I tried to argue that this could be a result of subtle forms of discrimination against his physical appearance. Though you did respond by stating that reasonable people like yourself ground this criticism on his production, or lack thereof, I have tried to show that this is in fact, not the case. Because when one looks at the evidence, one can unequivocally see that Matt Bonner has helped this team more than he has hurt it overall, and that his being lambasted is not grounded so much in reality as it is in perception.
    Your mind is warped. Senor_spur was obviously referring to Bonner's post season results and Pop expecting Bonner to actually make a difference for the team, which he has clearly not in 4 years.

    Which somehow you've twisted into a flawed, warped analogy which probably cons utes a brand new logical fallacy nobody has ever even seen.

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