Convincing US states to require physics

[LnGrrrR]

I'm surprised that today's kids can't write cursive and struggle to do basic mathematics without a calculator.

Eh, shouldn't be that surprising about the cursive. How often do you use cursive nowadays?

[ploto]

I do not like the idea of requiring that specific science course, but I do like 4 years of science. Some students are interested in anatomy, or 2 years of biology or chemistry, or environmental science. I do not really see the benefit in requiring everyone to take a course called Physics that we all know will not really be it. At some schools, the high school Physics class is not much more than the "Physical Science" class I took in middle school. At other schools, it is really Physics, complete with the need to know higher level math.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm surprised that today's kids can't write cursive and struggle to do basic mathematics without a calculator.

I have never understood the point of cursive.

[Halberto]

I do not like the idea of requiring that specific science course, but I do like 4 years of science. Some students are interested in anatomy, or 2 years of biology or chemistry, or environmental science. I do not really see the benefit in requiring everyone to take a course called Physics that we all know will not really be it. At some schools, the high school Physics class is not much more than the "Physical Science" class I took in middle school. At other schools, it is really Physics, complete with the need to know higher level math.

Agreed. Not everyone can study physics, at least at the level it was meant to be studied. I think you summed it up perfectly. Also, I find it pretty funny that a physics organization is stressing the importance of their field. It has as much merit as oil companies stressing the importance of Geology.

[MannyIsGod]

The higher you set the bar the higher students will achieve.

[boutons_deux]

yep, it's all expectations, and not about the silly "esteem building" where nobody loses, everybody gets a reward, which demeans the top students, and gives the bottom people a false sense of achievement.

[RandomGuy]

tbh, I was fairly proficient at math in high school, but physics was always something that really turned me off, and I always did poorly mostly because of lack of interest or lack of seeing applicability for it.

I ended up pretty much re-learning the whole thing on my own when writing 3D engines. Then it was more fun, and you could actually visually see what was going on.

I loved physics and chemistry. The math was not a problem for me, and learning about what made the universe tick, and the fact that you could describe the universe with math was, and is, fascinating.

[RandomGuy]

Agreed. Not everyone can study physics, at least at the level it was meant to be studied. I think you summed it up perfectly. Also, I find it pretty funny that a physics organization is stressing the importance of their field. It has as much merit as oil companies stressing the importance of Geology.

Geology *is* important.

Simply because someone might say something in their best interest does not affect the underlying merit of any argument. Either what they say has some underlying truth or not.

One should be somewhat skeptical of such claims, but can't logically dismiss them outright.

[RandomGuy]

I have never understood the point of cursive.

It meant more before typewriters could knock out the printd word faster than a human could write.

These days... not so much.

My kids' elementary doesn't even bother teaching it. This offends my wife deeply, heh. She is torturing my 9 year old with it.

I think it is just one less irrelevant thing to waste time on at that level. I would rather they spend the time on math/science/art.

[Agloco]

Also, I find it pretty funny that a physics organization is stressing the importance of their field. It has as much merit as oil companies stressing the importance of Geology.

Or like an Oncologist stresing the importance of cancer education?

Who better to extoll the virtues of physics than an organization dedicated to the cause? If not the experts, then who?

I get the point, but the comparison to big oil is a bad one imo.

[MannyIsGod]

The idea that we should dismiss the idea of requiring physics out of hand because of who is proposing it is very very foolish. I do not know what the ideal - if there is one - curriculum for high school students should be but I do believe that in general we set the bar incredibly low. The fact is that we graduate students with diplomas who read and perform basic math skills on a very poor level. I don't know if requiring more physics in HS is a way to remedy that but I do think in general we should be making the curriculum harder and by a good margin. We need to expect more out of the students.

Not everything students take needs to be something they will use in their everyday workplace or career. I personally do not enjoy most of the humanities courses I've had to take regarding history or cultural studies but those courses have a place in how I view the world and how I am able to critically analyze the world around me. There is more to a well rounded individual than to be able to recite field related information.

[Halberto]

I loved physics and chemistry. The math was not a problem for me, and learning about what made the universe tick, and the fact that you could describe the universe with math was, and is, fascinating.

I'm not trying to call you out, but I'm curious as to what you learned in Physics classes. Did you take it in high school? I never had physics in high school, but I did have 2 courses of physics for engineers and I just can't imagine how the majority of high school kids could learn that stuff. What's the point of learning physics if you can't even utilize trigonometry and basic calculus?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The higher you set the bar the higher students will achieve.

Sure but what the question is 'is what is worth achieving?' I do believe that physics is important in the sense that it gives a very real understanding of the world around us. How forces interact is in front of us each and every day. It certainly helps with the mysticism being passed off as reality that you see all over the place.

Other things this is not the case. For example, many Algebra 2 curriculum as for amongst other things asks for the study of imaginary numbers and matrices. Imaginary numbers derive from the application of geometry(trig) to a cartesian system. Matrices are used for things like solutions of simultaneous equations. Both are only used for very specific high level disciplines like various forms of engineering.

They force feed that to many rank and file high school sophmores. There is absolutely no point and can be counterproductive in the sense that it makes schooling less appealing for many of them. You are teaching them they know they are never going to use, we fail to provide them with a baseline in lower schools to learn it and thus they hate it. No one likes to be set up to fail for something that is worthless to their future.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm not trying to call you out, but I'm curious as to what you learned in Physics classes. Did you take it in high school? I never had physics in high school, but I did have 2 courses of physics for engineers and I just can't imagine how the majority of high school kids could learn that stuff. What's the point of learning physics if you can't even utilize trigonometry and basic calculus?

Teaching classical mechanics without at least some basis in calculus has always been pretty asinine in my view.

[coyotes_geek]

Eh, shouldn't be that surprising about the cursive. How often do you use cursive nowadays?

Other than signing my name, I don't think I've written anything in cursive since high school.

[coyotes_geek]

I do not like the idea of requiring that specific science course, but I do like 4 years of science. Some students are interested in anatomy, or 2 years of biology or chemistry, or environmental science.

Pretty much where I'm at on this as well. I'm okay with requiring more science, but don't think that it necessarily has to be physics.

[MannyIsGod]

Sure but what the question is 'is what is worth achieving?' I do believe that physics is important in the sense that it gives a very real understanding of the world around us. How forces interact is in front of us each and every day. It certainly helps with the mysticism being passed off as reality that you see all over the place.

Other things this is not the case. For example, many Algebra 2 curriculum as for amongst other things asks for the study of imaginary numbers and matrices. Imaginary numbers derive from the application of geometry(trig) to a cartesian system. Matrices are used for things like solutions of simultaneous equations. Both are only used for very specific high level disciplines like various forms of engineering.

They force feed that to many rank and file high school sophmores. There is absolutely no point and can be counterproductive in the sense that it makes schooling less appealing for many of them. You are teaching them they know they are never going to use, we fail to provide them with a baseline in lower schools to learn it and thus they hate it. No one likes to be set up to fail for something that is worthless to their future.

I don't think we need to make school anymore appealing, to be quite frank. I don't want high schools trying to market themselves to students but I rather want society making students understand that not everything in life you have to do is appealing but that doesn't mean its not important.

Furthermore, I don't think many HS sop res know whether or not they need Algebra 2 or US History or Chemistry. I think they should be exposed to all to ensure that they are able to formulate what they want to do later on in life.

You have to give them the tools early on even if they may not end up using them.

[Wild Cobra]

If anyone has paid any attention to Chomsky, they would realize that the US agenda has been to keep voters stupid, not educate them. Belief in the supernatural is the best stupid pill ever invented.

Ah....

Some supernatural events are real! Question is, which ones are and which ones aren't?

[Wild Cobra]

Certainly, and I'm no more than 100 percent biased obviously. Other physical disciplines impact those fields though. "Everything" was just part of the sales pitch +)

Well, I agree that nearly everything someone is interested in involves physics by some means or another.

[Wild Cobra]

I'm surprised that today's kids can't write cursive and struggle to do basic mathematics without a calculator.

We had slide rules!

[Wild Cobra]

The higher you set the bar the higher students will achieve.

Absolutely.

[Wild Cobra]

It meant more before typewriters could knock out the printd word faster than a human could write.

These days... not so much.

My kids' elementary doesn't even bother teaching it. This offends my wife deeply, heh. She is torturing my 9 year old with it.

I think it is just one less irrelevant thing to waste time on at that level. I would rather they spend the time on math/science/art.

Is shorthand still an elective in school? I would think it to be obsolete with voice recorders combined with computerized speech recognition. Cheaper to use these programs than pay a secretary... ooops excuse my lack of PC... I mean personal assistant... extra money for the extra talent.

[Wild Cobra]

I loved physics and chemistry. The math was not a problem for me, and learning about what made the universe tick, and the fact that you could describe the universe with math was, and is, fascinating.

I did too. I never took math once it wasn't required, instead, I took Chemistry, Physics, Drafting, Mechanics, Electronics, etc. All my electives were technical, and a cake walk for me. Good thing because I was a stoner in HS and didn't care about my grades, but got strait A's in all technical subjects anyway. Funny thing about electronics, is I have studied it as a hobby since 3rd grade, so I never took Electronics I or II. I challenged both courses, and did took electronics as independent study. I was pissed I only got an overall 97% on the tests I challenged.

[Wild Cobra]

The idea that we should dismiss the idea of requiring physics out of hand because of who is proposing it is very very foolish. I do not know what the ideal - if there is one - curriculum for high school students should be but I do believe that in general we set the bar incredibly low. The fact is that we graduate students with diplomas who read and perform basic math skills on a very poor level. I don't know if requiring more physics in HS is a way to remedy that but I do think in general we should be making the curriculum harder and by a good margin. We need to expect more out of the students.

Not everything students take needs to be something they will use in their everyday workplace or career. I personally do not enjoy most of the humanities courses I've had to take regarding history or cultural studies but those courses have a place in how I view the world and how I am able to critically analyze the world around me. There is more to a well rounded individual than to be able to recite field related information.

I think more about physics needs to be taught than what is taught in basic science courses. Make it some real world simple stuff. Just show students how physics affects them. Maybe some acceleration and deceleration dealing with cars, buses, etc. Stress to some idiots why a car cannot stop on a dime when they step out in front of it for example. Maybe some ideas behind how a guitar string or piano wire vibrates. Maybe how sound reacts to a chamber size for wind instruments. Physics doesn't need to be complicated, but a variety of stuff dealing with life might get kids more interested in it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't think we need to make school anymore appealing, to be quite frank. I don't want high schools trying to market themselves to students but I rather want society making students understand that not everything in life you have to do is appealing but that doesn't mean its not important.

Furthermore, I don't think many HS sop res know whether or not they need Algebra 2 or US History or Chemistry. I think they should be exposed to all to ensure that they are able to formulate what they want to do later on in life.

You have to give them the tools early on even if they may not end up using them.

Most kids are not instilled with a love to learn. I hate to say it but the average American is not too interested in academics. That ethic is passed onto children and while you may want it to be a particular way, that is just not the way it is.

Dropout rates are high and if you continue this train of thought then you are really not going to change that trend. These kids have to be taught that they like to learn and from there society as a whole benefit.

Matrices and imaginary numbers are not going to help the lay person. they just aren't and furthermore a lay person outside of tail parties is never going to encounter anything that has to do with either of those things.

Furthermore if you are going to push this type of thing on kids then you need to bring up the baseline. I have tutored children in math and science and all I can say is that the job being done in reading and math classes at the 6, 7, 8 grade level is absolutely abysmal.

For example, i sat in a history class with some of my students. They were 6th and 7th graders and the program was for kids that wanted to get into honors classes but did not have that baseline. We were to get them up to speed so that they could get into said classes. They were smart hardworking kids.

There was a test the following day and the teacher gave each student a sheet with 20 items listed on it and a page number. My kids could not look at the prompt go to the page and find the answer. I literally had to sit down show them how to break down nouns and verbs and look for words of similar meaning.

All three of them had taken a reading course yet they did not even have the most basic reading comprehension skills. Sitting down with them and working with them over algebraic problems was an adventure.

These were hard working kids that gave a damn. if they were not then they did not get into the program. You want to take the dummie kids who don't give a and never got that baseline and force matrices on them. Of course they are going to drop out.

Everyone wants to point to Stand and Deliver and horse like that about setting high standards but quite frankly unless you have a teacher that is willing and able to put in the work to make it such that they can accomplish these things then you are setting them up to fail.

I know I can teach but there is no way that i am going to do that. not at that pay scale so you are left with people that can get a teaching certificate. Well I am sorry but that is not setting the bar very high. So you get what you get. And with that you have to deal with the reality. Half assed teachers teaching halfassed kids curriculum that neither is prepared for.

Physics? How about algebra be taught worth a damn first.