It's over...

[Josepatches_]

Arguably...
- Dwight Howard (1 NBA Final)
- Lebron James (2 NBA Finals)

They're still young though...

Doesn't mean that if the Spurs hit the lottery they'll land talent like that though

Howard? he's not half of good TD was

James? Ok so you only can name one player as good as TD was in 15 years

[GSH]

Arguably...
- Dwight Howard (1 NBA Final)
- Lebron James (2 NBA Finals)

They're still young though...

Doesn't mean that if the Spurs hit the lottery they'll land talent like that though

Blake Griffen?

And you can't restrict it to just "since Duncan". It hasn't been that long since Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Shaq, Chris Webber. If Yao could have stayed healthy. Kidd, Mourning, Gary Payton - to name a few #2 picks. Number Three picks - Deron Williams, Carmello, Pau, Michael Jordan, Grant Hill (another injury tragedy), Dominuque, McHale.

And this next season promises to be a very good draft. Not that it's a guarantee. But it's likely that several very good players will come from it.

[DMC]

Arguably...
- Dwight Howard (1 NBA Final)
- Lebron James (2 NBA Finals)

They're still young though...

Doesn't mean that if the Spurs hit the lottery they'll land talent like that though

Neither of those guys rung. That's the "there" I was referring to.

[DMC]

Blowing it up means getting rid of your big contracts and start over.

The "start over" thing is so generic it almost doesn't even register.

Explain how you start over. Do you make James Anderson your star player? Do you offer that bigger money to league failures like Kevin Love and maybe a Gasol brother and hope you can get back to where you were, the playoffs?

I don't get it.

I realize we aren't contending for a championship, but the alternative could be Timberwolves ball for 10 more years.

[ElNono]

Neither of those guys rung. That's the "there" I was referring to.

Well, we just have differing views of what qualifies. Duncan didn't take us "there" every season either. He did make us contenders for a while.

And personally, that's what I would like. Knowing that you have a real shot at a championship.

[ElNono]

The "start over" thing is so generic it almost doesn't even register.

Explain how you start over. Do you make James Anderson your star player? Do you offer that bigger money to league failures like Kevin Love and maybe a Gasol brother and hope you can get back to where you were, the playoffs?

I don't get it.

I realize we aren't contending for a championship, but the alternative could be Timberwolves ball for 10 more years.

You said being done was the same as blowing it up. It isn't.

Blowing it up means getting rid of our core and starting to build a new, younger core. Whether it might be better or worse, nobody knows. It's obvious that sooner rather than later the Spurs will undergo that process.

I already stated I have no problem having this core have a farewell tour, contenders or not.

[DMC]

Blake Griffen?

And you can't restrict it to just "since Duncan". It hasn't been that long since Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Shaq, Chris Webber. If Yao could have stayed healthy. Kidd, Mourning, Gary Payton - to name a few #2 picks. Number Three picks - Deron Williams, Carmello, Pau, Michael Jordan, Grant Hill (another injury tragedy), Dominuque, McHale.

And this next season promises to be a very good draft. Not that it's a guarantee. But it's likely that several very good players will come from it.

Blake Griffin is a hopeful. Do you really think he's going to take the Clippers to a ring? Do you think his skillset is that good?

What's more likely to happen first:

a) Blake takes Clippers to a ring
b) Blake goes to another team

David was a great 1st overall pick, and Tim was outstanding. David with 10 years of average + players couldn't get to the Finals. Tim came along and took us over the top.

Lebron couldn't take us to a ring and neither could Howard. Both of these guys lack the instinct to be champions.

[ElNono]

Lebron couldn't take us to a ring and neither could Howard. Both of these guys lack the instinct to be champions.

You just don't know. Maybe with a better coach or better pieces around them?

They definitely have the talent to take a team and make them contenders. That's what you look for when you look at franchise/star talent in this league.

A single player never wins championships. Kobe had Gasol/Shaq. Tim had DRob/Manu/TP/Bowen... and so on

[GSH]

The "start over" thing is so generic it almost doesn't even register.

Explain how you start over. Do you make James Anderson your star player? Do you offer that bigger money to league failures like Kevin Love and maybe a Gasol brother and hope you can get back to where you were, the playoffs?

I don't get it.

I realize we aren't contending for a championship, but the alternative could be Timberwolves ball for 10 more years.

It's not that complicated. The Spurs have a core in the Big 3. You either spend money like a drunken sailor, and surround them with high quality support players (Lakers, Celtics, Mavs). Or you break up the Big 3, use the trads(s) to acquire some high quality pieces, and tank a season or two to acquire a special player from the draft. And, yeah, James Anderson might start during the tank season(s).

The half-life of not quite committing to either strategy is a recipe for disaster.

Blake Griffin is a hopeful. Do you really think he's going to take the Clippers to a ring? Do you think his skillset is that good?

Griffen getting a ring will have a lot to do with their FO. His skill set is that good. But then that's what we're talking about here, isn't it?

There have been a lot of franchise-level players in the first three picks of the draft. If you mean they have to rise to exactly the level of Duncan, then it's a ridiculous discussion to begin with. He's the best to ever play a position. No - we aren't going to find a Duncan clone.

[DMC]

you're probably right and I should probably just shut up and remiss about the past, but I can't help but think that the only thing that's spoiled is the opportunity to get Timmy another ring.

I get tired of reading that bull line about getting Timmy another ring. What, is Timmy crippled and can we call him Tiny Tim?

Timmy needs to get his own ing ring. There's no reason for any franchise to set out to get a ring for any one player who already has 4 rings.

If Timmy was still viable, we wouldn't be sitting around talking about getting him a ring. If he could hit his FTs and not get dominated in the post by Zach ing Randolph, he might have a better chance at a ring.

Sorry, I thank Tim for all he's done and wish him well, but he's not the team mascot cancer kid. He's a multimillionaire player who's got one of the biggest salaries in the NBA. I don't feel the need to charity him a ring. If he wanted it that bad he would accept less money and bring in real help.

[DMC]

It's not that complicated. The Spurs have a core in the Big 3. You either spend money like a drunken sailor, and surround them with high quality support players (Lakers, Celtics, Mavs). Or you break up the Big 3, use the trads(s) to acquire some high quality pieces, and tank a season or two to acquire a special player from the draft. And, yeah, James Anderson might start during the tank season(s).

The half-life of not quite committing to either strategy is a recipe for disaster.




Griffen getting a ring will have a lot to do with their FO. His skill set is that good. But then that's what we're talking about here, isn't it?

There have been a lot of franchise-level players in the first three picks of the draft. If you mean they have to rise to exactly the level of Duncan, then it's a ridiculous discussion to begin with. He's the best to ever play a position. No - we aren't going to find a Duncan clone.

Blake's no where near Tim's skill set. He's an athletic monster, but he cannot do what Tim could do. Tim would have gotten the Clippers to the playoffs, even with that squad, in his younger years.

No way rookie Blake gets the same squad to the Finals that Tim got there. Anything else is speculation because he's played one year.

If blowing up the team means you lose money in ticket sales, why would you do it? Are fans going to go out and buy Anderson jerseys? Are they going to re-up to see D league players?

I understand it in terms of "how to win a ring eventually" but the NBA is entertainment. It's not very entertaining to be a bottom rung team hoping to get back to the playoffs in a few years with some hyped up 1st year college dropout.

And the talk about getting a new coach... look around. Want Mike Brown, Del Negro, Van Gundy? How about Larry Brown comes back?

Exactly.

Some don't remember those years.

[GSH]

I get tired of reading that bull line about getting Timmy another ring. What, is Timmy crippled and can we call him Tiny Tim?

Timmy needs to get his own ing ring. There's no reason for any franchise to set out to get a ring for any one player who already has 4 rings.

If Timmy was still viable, we wouldn't be sitting around talking about getting him a ring. If he could hit his FTs and not get dominated in the post by Zach ing Randolph, he might have a better chance at a ring.

Sorry, I thank Tim for all he's done and wish him well, but he's not the team mascot cancer kid. He's a multimillionaire player who's got one of the biggest salaries in the NBA. I don't feel the need to charity him a ring. If he wanted it that bad he would accept less money and bring in real help.

This is one of those nights where I'm just going to wind up going ing postal on one of these ridiculous posts. I'm going to sleep now.

The truth is, you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin'... I'm tryin real hard to be the Shepherd.

[DMC]

This is one of those nights where I'm just going to wind up going ing postal on one of these ridiculous posts. I'm going to sleep now.

The truth is, you're the weak. And I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin'... I'm tryin real hard to be the Shepherd.

If you cannot make sense, you are probably best served to quit.

[ElNono]

I get tired of reading that bull line about getting Timmy another ring. What, is Timmy crippled and can we call him Tiny Tim?

Timmy needs to get his own ing ring. There's no reason for any franchise to set out to get a ring for any one player who already has 4 rings.

If Timmy was still viable, we wouldn't be sitting around talking about getting him a ring. If he could hit his FTs and not get dominated in the post by Zach ing Randolph, he might have a better chance at a ring.

Sorry, I thank Tim for all he's done and wish him well, but he's not the team mascot cancer kid. He's a multimillionaire player who's got one of the biggest salaries in the NBA. I don't feel the need to charity him a ring. If he wanted it that bad he would accept less money and bring in real help.

Tim has known physical problems that, over time, causes his production to really diminish. He still is a great PF, but he needs help to reduce his workload so the team can take advantage of extended production from him.
The rationale of "help for Tim" is entirely based on the premise it would "help the Spurs" in the long run, perhaps, to get another ring.

[DMC]

Tim has known physical problems that, over time, causes his production to really diminish. He still is a great PF, but he needs help to reduce his workload so the team can take advantage of extended production from him.
The rationale of "help for Tim" is entirely based on the premise it would "help the Spurs" in the long run, perhaps, to get another ring.

I understand that basic premise, but a 22mil a year guy isn't going to get much help in a small market. That's why James, Wade and Bosh took 15 or so each, so they could get decent help.

I'm not suggesting Tim do that. I am saying that he has to know his salary is the deciding factor. It is what it is.

[ElNono]

I understand that basic premise, but a 22mil a year guy isn't going to get much help in a small market. That's why James, Wade and Bosh took 15 or so each, so they could get decent help.

I'm not suggesting Tim do that. I am saying that he has to know his salary is the deciding factor. It is what it is.

Well, you simply can't pay somebody $22 million with the current CBA. Back when Tim got his contract, that was fair value for him. The Spurs actually did try to make an impact move when they traded for RJ. It just didn't pan out, and unfortunately, it's very difficult to flip that contract now.

[DMC]

Well, you simply can't pay somebody $22 million with the current CBA. Back when Tim got his contract, that was fair value for him. The Spurs actually did try to make an impact move when they traded for RJ. It just didn't pan out, and unfortunately, it's very difficult to flip that contract now.

If it was profitable to make a bigger splash, the Spurs would have amnestied RJ's ass and brought in some one who gives a .

Otherwise, we are in agreement here.

[GSH]

I understand that basic premise, but a 22mil a year guy isn't going to get much help in a small market. That's why James, Wade and Bosh took 15 or so each, so they could get decent help.

You know so ing little, but you talk in such absolutes. NO, no, just no. The reason those guys took "15 or so each" is so that they could all go to the same team. They didn't do to leave Miami room to sign "decent help". That would have required them taking maybe $12M each, and they wouldn't play for that. Period. They took 15 solely because it was the most that Miami could pay, and still get all three of them.

And Miami BARELY cleared up enough room to be able to acquire all three of those guys. (Even at that, it required the NBA to announce that the BRI was unexpectedly large, and the cap would be somewhat higher than anticipated. Not that they helped the deal or anything....) Look it up before you give another one of your smarmy answers. You don't know what the you're talking about.

Now I'm going to bed. I guess I'm not the shepherd.

[ElNono]

If it was profitable to make a bigger splash, the Spurs would have amnestied RJ's ass and brought in some one who gives a .

Otherwise, we are in agreement here.

It's water under the bridge now. But I do still think it cost the Spurs more money to give him the contract they did than paying him his last season on his old deal. The Spurs would be under the cap now, and would've had the full MLE without having to worry about paying off the $34 million left on his deal.

Then again, I'm not convinced the Spurs really think they need to improve the frontline.

[DMC]

You know so ing little, but you talk in such absolutes. NO, no, just no. The reason those guys took "15 or so each" is so that they could all go to the same team. They didn't do to leave Miami room to sign "decent help". That would have required them taking maybe $12M each, and they wouldn't play for that. Period. They took 15 solely because it was the most that Miami could pay, and still get all three of them.

And Miami BARELY cleared up enough room to be able to acquire all three of those guys. (Even at that, it required the NBA to announce that the BRI was unexpectedly large, and the cap would be somewhat higher than anticipated. Not that they helped the deal or anything....) Look it up before you give another one of your smarmy answers. You don't know what the you're talking about.

Now I'm going to bed. I guess I'm not the shepherd.

If Tim wants everyone to play on the same team, it's the same concept, so aside from your "nuh uh" and your meltdown rant, what did you just say?

Nothing I haven't already said.

It boils down to the fact that Tim's salary (along with others) creates a stagnant environment where the team cannot improve without finding hidden talent for cheap. That's where Miami would have been if they didn't get Bosh and paid Lebron the max.

[DMC]

It's water under the bridge now. But I do still think it cost the Spurs more money to give him the contract they did than paying him his last season on his old deal. The Spurs would be under the cap now, and would've had the full MLE without having to worry about paying off the $34 million left on his deal.

Then again, I'm not convinced the Spurs really think they need to improve the frontline.

That last statement could be the heart of the issue.

If they don't feel that way, I wonder what they see that we don't, or what they don't see that we do.

[ElNono]

That last statement could be the heart of the issue.

If they don't feel that way, I wonder what they see that we don't, or what they don't see that we do.

I don't know for sure. I suspect they think Thiago can really grow to be the Dice replacement, and for some reason I think Pop has a fascination with Bonner not unlike he had with Finley. He wouldn't be the first or last coach to fall in love with subpar talent. The difference is that a guy like Phil Jackson didn't give Luke Walton that much run.

[underdawg]

I get tired of reading that bull line about getting Timmy another ring. What, is Timmy crippled and can we call him Tiny Tim?

Timmy needs to get his own ing ring. There's no reason for any franchise to set out to get a ring for any one player who already has 4 rings.

If Timmy was still viable, we wouldn't be sitting around talking about getting him a ring. If he could hit his FTs and not get dominated in the post by Zach ing Randolph, he might have a better chance at a ring.

Sorry, I thank Tim for all he's done and wish him well, but he's not the team mascot cancer kid. He's a multimillionaire player who's got one of the biggest salaries in the NBA. I don't feel the need to charity him a ring. If he wanted it that bad he would accept less money and bring in real help.

Timmy did about as good as he could last year given the mileage he has on him, but that's not the point and I shouldn't even have to explain this to you. The commitment of the FO to winning was an understatement during negotiations with Duncan. That's why he took less money, so the Spurs could bring in players - remember the 2010 plan? The FO failed and the window is most likely shut.

[DMC]

Timmy did about as good as he could last year given the mileage he has on him, but that's not the point and I shouldn't even have to explain this to you. The commitment of the FO to winning was an understatement during negotiations with Duncan. That's why he took less money, so the Spurs could bring in players - remember the 2010 plan? The FO failed and the window is most likely shut.

Sorry, but he is ultimately responsible for his results on the court, especially as the face of the franchise. He gets the credit for the rings, he gets the credit for the losses.

[DMC]

I don't know for sure. I suspect they think Thiago can really grow to be the Dice replacement, and for some reason I think Pop has a fascination with Bonner not unlike he had with Finley. He wouldn't be the first or last coach to fall in love with subpar talent. The difference is that a guy like Phil Jackson didn't give Luke Walton that much run.

Yeah but Phil never coached a team who's owner had a lower net worth than it's star player.