Grades: Spurs vs. Bulls - Feb. 29

[justinandimcool]

Funny thing is that one of Pop's main rules is don't help off a guy in 3 pt range. Thibs stuck to it the whole game, Pop ditched this principle in the last 3 minutes

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Not exactly Bonner's fault. The offensive system that has shooters rotate among the four major spots (the wings and corners) to get threes is to take advantage of bad defenses only. The only open looks the Spurs got were from Danny Green, early. Then the Bulls figured out he could shoot and he never burned them again.

The offensive system banks on teams doubling Tony or Timmy (or Manu) in order to create open looks, which worked great in the le years because you HAD to double them- all of them. Last night, Tony was too busy choking, no need to double. Tim doesn't get doubled anymore even on his best day. How will we expect Bonner (or Green, or Jefferson) to get open when we can't even get step 1 out of the way?

People love to blame Bonner/Jefferson for choking when really the same thing would happen if we had Bowen/Kerr/Barry as our spot up shooters against elite teams in this system with Duncan at the age he is now. All teams have to do is NOT double team Tony or Manu, and therefore Jefferson and Bonner (and Mason and Bogans and Jackson and Horry) don't get their threes. Then they can't get into a rhythm throughout the game, and all of a sudden they're labeled as chokers.

This is the flaw in Pop's offense. It's great for little league/high school/Golden State where defenses are undisciplined (I coach middle school kids, Pop's offense works amazingly when you have a quick PG). But spot up shooters can't get open when the defense locks in on them. There needs to be more screens and more plays literally drawn up for Bonner/RJ/Green to work the floor and less reliance on stand attack and kick, because defenses aren't buying it anymore.

The reason people say teams die by the three in the playoffs isn't because they suddenly choke- good defenses just key in on it. The reason guys like Reggie Miller and Jason Terry are such huge playoff performers from the perimeter against the best defenses ever is because they don't rely on a defender sagging off--they can run around screens and their offense can create plays for their 3's more easily. Luckily we have a guy like Neal who can do that, as we saw last night. But if Pop doesn't change his offense and set more screens for the spot-up guys, they'll put up more bagels in the playoffs and cause panic here. But the blame lies more on Pop for not realizing this, and for TP when he doesn't score enough to draw doubles.

The best example of this is the OKC games. In game 1 in OKC, they never dared leave Bonner for the entire first half. With Timmy and Tony both struggling, why should they? Bonner ends up 0-1 from 3pt land, and OKC wins in a blow out. Game 2? Parker scores 42...they have to double him or he torches Russell...and they do...Parker ends up drawing the defense out and boom he gets 9 assists--- Green hits 2 threes, Jefferson hits three, Bonner hits three.

It's easy to jump on Bonner and RJ, but it all starts with Pop and Tony.


inb4 tl;dr

Nice post and if you're the same guy from RealGm (same SN) welcome aboard

[wildbill2u]

I was screaming for Pop to take out RJ and put Green back in. I didn't know he was injured and couldn't go.
RJ did get one 3 in the 4th, but his defense and rebounding was non-factor.

We are extremely short-handed, but I wonder if Anderson or even Dawson could have taken up that slack on defense at the end.

[Paranoid Pop]

Game 2? Parker scores 42...they have to double him or he torches Russell...and they do...Parker ends up drawing the defense out and boom he gets 9 assists--- Green hits 2 threes, Jefferson hits three, Bonner hits three.

It's easy to jump on Bonner and RJ, but it all starts with Pop and Tony.


inb4 tl;dr

Yet he had 9 assists in this game as well and was +3 while playing 38 minutes. Even in a bad night it's wasn't that bad, his passing can be good enough to make up for off shooting nights. I think the collision with Rose took a lot of agressivity out of him, he was great up to that point.

[Paranoid Pop]

People love to blame Bonner/Jefferson for choking when really the same thing would happen if we had Bowen/Kerr/Barry as our spot up shooters against elite teams in this system with Duncan at the age he is now.

Bonner is the guy that got humiliated FT wise by Ben Wallace at the end of the Detroit game, so you're definitely going too far.

[justinandimcool]

Yet he had 9 assists in this game as well and was +3 while playing 38 minutes. Even in a bad night it's wasn't that bad, his passing can be good enough to make up for off shooting nights. I think the collision with Rose took a lot of agressivity out of him, he was great up to that point.

True, but three of those assists were for layups/dunks and another three were for Timmy jumpshots. Which is great, but it wasn't a sign of Tony playing well--more so Timmy. They were fronting him and Blair which gave us free points, and Timmy caught fire from outside. Hey if we can rely on that kind of inside domination () consistently in the playoffs I'll be happy, but that is highly highly unlikely.

[justinandimcool]

Nice post and if you're the same guy from RealGm (same SN) welcome aboard

lol heyyyy! which real GMer are you?

Bonner is the guy that got humiliated FT wise by Ben Wallace at the end of the Detroit game, so you're definitely going too far.

lol if FT's are your argument then Neal, Timmy, and Tony are all chokers- we have no hope.

[DPG21920]

inb4 tl;dr

You are new, yet seem to have a good understanding of the Internet. I'll will strongly consider your statements moving forward.

[Paranoid Pop]

True, but three of those assists were for layups/dunks and another three were for Timmy jumpshots. Which is great, but it wasn't a sign of Tony playing well--more so Timmy. They were fronting him and Blair which gave us free points, and Timmy caught fire from outside. Hey if we can rely on that kind of inside domination () consistently in the playoffs I'll be happy, but that is highly highly unlikely.

Just saying that blaming the loss on Parker when he played all but 10 minutes of the game and still had a positive +/- is questionable.

And the "lucky/bad" assists point remind me of the distinction between "lazy" TOs and the "agressive/positive" Lin-TOs at the peak of the Lin-mania, it's up there for nonsensical quote of the year. PGs should go the hot hand afaik, can't blame them for that.

[Paranoid Pop]

lol if FT's are your argument then Neal, Timmy, and Tony are all chokers- we have no hope.

Bonner has an history of uncluchness tbh, it is known.

[justinandimcool]

Just saying that blaming the loss on Parker when he played all but 10 minutes of the game and still had a positive +/- is questionable.

And the "lucky/bad" assists point remind me of the distinction between "lazy" TOs and the "agressive/positive" Lin-TOs at the peak of the Lin-mania, it's up there for nonsensical quote of the year. PGs should go the hot hand afaik, can't blame them for that.

Hey man, I wasn't saying Parker's assists were bad, it was a great alternative when they were shutting down the shooters. But how many times have we been able to rely on inside play for our offense (other than when Splitter is killing on the pnr)? It's nice to have that kind of weaponry in our back pocket, but unless Tim gets fronted the rest of the season/postseason I can't see the Spurs/TP relying on that kind of easy playmaking all year.

[justinandimcool]

Bonner has an history of uncluchness tbh, it is known.

lol well alright then. the offense is peachy perfect, even when TP is 5-16, it is all Bonner's fault.

[Paranoid Pop]

Hey man, I wasn't saying Parker's assists were bad, it was a great alternative when they were shutting down the shooters. But how many times have we been able to rely on inside play for our offense (other than when Splitter is killing on the pnr)? It's nice to have that kind of weaponry in our back pocket, but unless Tim gets fronted the rest of the postseason I can't see the Spurs/TP relying on that kind of easy playmaking all year.

It is indeed more or less reliable but with Splitter it has been pretty flawless at times, then again we have to make it somewhat reliable to have any chance in the playoffs.

[Paranoid Pop]

lol well alright then. the offense is peachy perfect, even when TP is 5-16, it is all Bonner's fault.

Not saying that, their bench pretty much raped our bench AND Parker did have a bad night which didn't help.

[justinandimcool]

It is indeed more or less reliable but with Splitter it has been pretty flawless at times, then again we have to make it somewhat reliable to have any chance in the playoffs.

Well it's the same concept as the spot up threes. Let's assume Tim/Blair don't get fronted the rest of the year, the only way they get easy baskets is if Tony is on that particular night and draws doubles. If Tony's off, we can rely on the pnr (which only really works with Manu/Blair and Tony/Splitter) or Timmy taking his guy one on one. But it becomes a struggle when that happens- Splitter just isn't there yet, and we haven't seen him do amazingly on the pnr against elite defenses. Duncan is hit or miss lately, mostly good, but even he has the tendency of doing too much and struggling when having to score by himself.

Whether it's inside or outside that we attack from, it really all depends on Tony (or Manu) being on offensively and breaking down defenses.

[phxspurfan]

I never comment on these but this time I felt compelled. Duncan deserves better than a C. He gets an A in my book. He fought hard on both ends all game, and without him, we would have been (even more of) a joke.

[maverick1948]

After 40 posts, no one has said a thing about the 2 late 3 point attempts by Duncan. Both missed. Sad to say but Neal, Bonner and Jefferson were all open for what the get paid to do. SHOOT 3's. Yet, Duncan took the shots. Dont use time as an excuse, as one was in the 30 sec range and the last at 20 sec. It would have taken 2 seconds more to pass to the shooters but Timmy didnt and neither did Tony.

But Tim gets a C+ while Bonner and Jefferson get grilled as the losers of the game. Tony was a step slow last night and Timmy looked like he was glued to the floor.

Let's look at the game and not just blame one or two players for a loss. We had our chances and it was not the Bulls that stopped us it was ourselves.

[maverick1948]

I never comment on these but this time I felt compelled. Duncan deserves better than a C. He gets an A in my book. He fought hard on both ends all game, and without him, we would have been (even more of) a joke.

\

I see you think 1 for 9 is great. That was Timmy's first 9 shots. The one he made was a left side bank. Then the late 3 attempts with open SHOOTERS to his left were ok too. He deserves a D at best.

[elemento]

Two things

While i agree with Justin that it wasn't Bonner's fault last night (he only got 2 open shots) we can't blame the system entirely.

Sorry, but to say that Pop has to work with an offensive system that gives Bonner shots through screens is laughable. Bonner can't do it. Bonner is a spot-up shooter that has to be totally open to hit his shots. He can't do anything else.

It's known that Bonner chokes in the playoffs even with open looks. Just get back to 08/09. Best year of Tony's career. Tony destroying the Mavs and breaking down their defense. Bonner (who shot 44% 3P in the RS) suddenly shoots for 23% in the playoffs.

How can we blame Pop on that ? Seriously.

And how can we give Jefferson a pass when he let Deng open to shoot two 3s in a row pretty much destroying our hope to get back in the game ?

I can understand that Pop's system has his flaws considering our personnel, but i won't give a free pass for Bonner or Jefferson. Not at all.

[justinandimcool]

Two things

While i agree with Justin that it wasn't Bonner's fault last night (he only got 2 open shots) we can't blame the system entirely.

Sorry, but to say that Pop has to work with an offensive system that gives Bonner shots through screens is laughable. Bonner can't do it. Bonner is a spot-up shooter that has to be totally open to hit his shots. He can't do anything else.

It's known that Bonner chokes in the playoffs even with open looks. Just get back to 08/09. Best year of Tony's career. Tony destroying the Mavs and breaking down their defense. Bonner (who shot 44% 3P in the RS) suddenly shoots for 23% in the playoffs.

How can we blame Pop on that ? Seriously.

And how can we give Jefferson a pass when he let Deng open to shoot two 3s in a row pretty much destroying our hope to get back in the game ?

I can understand that Pop's system has his flaws considering our personnel, but i won't give a free pass for Bonner or Jefferson. Not at all.

Thanks for the response.

It's not all that laughable. It's not like Bonner and RJ have to run crosscourt like Ray Allen, but a simple backscreen on the elbow will do. Paul Pierce and Steve Novak are slow as and they thrive off it. I've seen Bonner score off a version of it in fact, I forget when.

In the practice videos, RJ and Bonner are seen practicing stand still threes over and over. I'm not gonna assume that they don't practice running off simple screens and getting open, but it sure looks like they're not. It's something they're very capable of, IMO.

Like I said, if Parker or Manu are scoring wonderfully (or if Tim turns back the clock), Pop's system is amazing. If they're cold and teams don't double, the means of adjustment aren't there (except the bigs on the PNR). We can either blame Bonner and RJ for not being able to hit threes off screens, or we can blame Pop for putting them in knowing they're just dead weight when defense don't sag off. IMO it's a bit of both- personnel failure in practice and coaching failure for not having a decent backup system.

[dbestpro]

I respect the Bulls defense. They play the way you should. What I take issue with is the constant flow of uncalled moving screens. Tiago, so much as burps and he gets called for a moving screen.

Watching the Bulls get away with this on play after play brought back some of the not so fond memories of Jordan, where there was one rule for him and another set of rules for everyone else.

[hater]

LOL Bonner and getting a passing grade

[therealtruth]

Isn't the reason Pop likes Bonner to be out there that he can "spread the floor"? That doesn't just mean that he makes 3's. It means that it forces the defense to put a man on him or they sag to the middle and then he makes 3's. So when a team like Chicago goes to the trouble of putting a man on him all night, and denying him the open looks, isn't that part of the plan? Isn't that the spreading the floor part of the Bonner strategy? Didn't his presence spread the floor by forcing the other team to keep a potential help defender out there?

Sometimes the defense may go cover him because he's been making 3's - last night they covered him to keep him from making 3's. What's the difference? Well... except for the part where he makes some shots.

Don't even start the rants - I'm not even talking about Bonner here. I'm wondering if there's really any value to this team in spreading the floor, if the rest of the offense can't take advantage of it. We didn't have anybody capable of sucking the defender off of Bonner, so they didn't have to worry about it? To me that all says that the spreading the floor thing is BS, and Bonner's only value is if he's shooting, and making, 3-pointers. I guess it also says that the Bull's defense is good enough (or our offense lacking enough) that they don't need that help defender - ever.

Someone correct me, or steer me in another direction. Because that's a pretty sobering thought.

I don't buy into that spreading the floor baloney either. I just believe in the value of playing your best players. If your power forward can shoot 3's it's a plus but you don't play a power forward just because he can shoot 3's.

[justinandimcool]

Isn't the reason Pop likes Bonner to be out there that he can "spread the floor"? That doesn't just mean that he makes 3's. It means that it forces the defense to put a man on him or they sag to the middle and then he makes 3's. So when a team like Chicago goes to the trouble of putting a man on him all night, and denying him the open looks, isn't that part of the plan? Isn't that the spreading the floor part of the Bonner strategy? Didn't his presence spread the floor by forcing the other team to keep a potential help defender out there?

Sometimes the defense may go cover him because he's been making 3's - last night they covered him to keep him from making 3's. What's the difference? Well... except for the part where he makes some shots.

Don't even start the rants - I'm not even talking about Bonner here. I'm wondering if there's really any value to this team in spreading the floor, if the rest of the offense can't take advantage of it. We didn't have anybody capable of sucking the defender off of Bonner, so they didn't have to worry about it? To me that all says that the spreading the floor thing is BS, and Bonner's only value is if he's shooting, and making, 3-pointers. I guess it also says that the Bull's defense is good enough (or our offense lacking enough) that they don't need that help defender - ever.

Someone correct me, or steer me in another direction. Because that's a pretty sobering thought.

It's a strategy that goes both ways.

If Bonner/RJ spread the floor, it gives Tony/Manu/Tim room to operate in pnr/iso penetration.

If you draft guys like Tim (in his dominant days)/Manu/Tony have the ability to both score and pass, you have to spread the floor in order to maximize their skills.

Every team does this, have one or two guys as the centerpiece and everyone else gets out of the way; but Bonner's a novelty because he's a big. Whereas other teams with two bigs would tend to rely on a either hi-lo, a triangle like set, or simple pnr, the Spurs spread it almost all the time. Even when Elson, Robinson, and Fabby were here it was still mostly 4-down. Pop always spread the floor no matter who he had as personnel.

It's simple really, Pop's offensive preferences relies on a guy that can score by himself and force double teams, whether that guy is a big (Tim) or wing (Manu) or small (Tony). He's never going to NOT spread the floor. It'll always be 4-down or penetrate and kick to rotating shooters. That's a genius plan in these guys' primes, and a very flawed one now when Tony's the only guy worth doubling nowadays.

So you're right, maybe spreading the floor isn't the best for this particular team. It's great when Tony's playing the way he has been, but as you can see last night, it's not great when Manu's out and Tony's getting shut down one on one.

The alternative? Look when Timmy and Blair are on the floor as the two bigs, they pretty much switch off as pnr guys. When we pound it in, it's not always pretty...

[therealtruth]

Thanks for the response.

It's not all that laughable. It's not like Bonner and RJ have to run crosscourt like Ray Allen, but a simple backscreen on the elbow will do. Paul Pierce and Steve Novak are slow as and they thrive off it. I've seen Bonner score off a version of it in fact, I forget when.

In the practice videos, RJ and Bonner are seen practicing stand still threes over and over. I'm not gonna assume that they don't practice running off simple screens and getting open, but it sure looks like they're not. It's something they're very capable of, IMO.

Like I said, if Parker or Manu are scoring wonderfully (or if Tim turns back the clock), Pop's system is amazing. If they're cold and teams don't double, the means of adjustment aren't there (except the bigs on the PNR). We can either blame Bonner and RJ for not being able to hit threes off screens, or we can blame Pop for putting them in knowing they're just dead weight when defense don't sag off. IMO it's a bit of both- personnel failure in practice and coaching failure for not having a decent backup system.

Pop is stubborn to a fault. Like your saying he's got to be able to adjust the offense to the situation. If those doubles aren't coming he's got to go into more of a offense based on movement and screens. I think right now Pop is hoping when they don't double Tony will go for 40. He kept waiting against the Grizzlies and it didn't happen.