Has Bonner Improved The Spurs Frontline?

[cd021]

This may be the best sentence I've ever read on ST.

Your sarcasm is pretty vague. Duncan and Splitter essentially play the same roles Duncan is just way better at it. Duncan pick and pops Splitter Pick & rolls. Splitter is actually an efficient post scorer (he does turn the ball over in the post too much though)

[cd021]

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursna...rated-defense/
For All of those who don't believe Bonner helps the front line

Bonner's Post Defense
2009-10: 0.84 points per post-up, 114th in the NBA – 122 post-ups, 47 for 108 shooting (43.5 percent), eight turnovers.

2010-11: 0.74 points per post-up, 48th in the NBA – 105 post-ups, 30 for 85 shooting (35.3 percent), 11 turnovers.

2011-12: 0.67 points per post-up, 28th in the NBA – 108 post-ups, 27 for 85 shooting (31.8 percent), 13 turnovers.

2012-13: 0.67 points per post-up, not enough to rank – six post-ups, 1 for 4 shooting (25 percent), one turnover.


Men Lie, Women Lie, Number's Don't

[Splits]

Your sarcasm is pretty vague. Duncan and Splitter essentially play the same roles Duncan is just way better at it. Duncan pick and pops Splitter Pick & rolls. Splitter is actually an efficient post scorer (he does turn the ball over in the post too much though)

That's not how I read what you wrote, which really didn't make any sense. I read it as you saying Bonner has shaped Splitter's game the same way Bonner has shaped Duncan's game. Like Bonner's a factor in their development or something.

[ElNono]

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursna...rated-defense/
For All of those who don't believe Bonner helps the front line

Bonner's Post Defense
2009-10: 0.84 points per post-up, 114th in the NBA – 122 post-ups, 47 for 108 shooting (43.5 percent), eight turnovers.

2010-11: 0.74 points per post-up, 48th in the NBA – 105 post-ups, 30 for 85 shooting (35.3 percent), 11 turnovers.

2011-12: 0.67 points per post-up, 28th in the NBA – 108 post-ups, 27 for 85 shooting (31.8 percent), 13 turnovers.

2012-13: 0.67 points per post-up, not enough to rank – six post-ups, 1 for 4 shooting (25 percent), one turnover.


Men Lie, Women Lie, Number's Don't

that's all cool. What are his numbers for the playoff?

[cd021]

no it isnt ... blair was benched the last 2 playoffs = spurs eliminated .....

Are numbers to back that up? I bet you blame Pop for not playing Rasho against Dirk and the Mavs in the '06-07 Playoffs.

Its coincidental that we were eliminated and Blair played sparingly.

[ElNono]

Even Drz, Bonner lover extraordinaire agrees Bonner production in the playoffs took a nose dive... this isn't up for discussion anymore.

Now if you're saying he should see more regular season run... okay. But to me it's a waste of time: you can't count on him when it matters.

[ElNono]

And FWIW, this season the Spurs have proven one more time that Matty has nothing to do with the Spurs playing well and winning. He didn't sniff substantial minutes until the Miami game, and the Spurs still had the 2nd best record in the league.

[TheSkeptic]

Even Drz, Bonner lover extraordinaire agrees Bonner production in the playoffs took a nose dive... this isn't up for discussion anymore.

Now if you're saying he should see more regular season run... okay. But to me it's a waste of time: you can't count on him when it matters.

I actually don't have a problem with giving him Blair's minutes to start in the regular season. Pop would just need to ease into a 3 big rotation so that the guys are used to the minute increase in time for the playoffs.

For the record, I completely agree with the OP. Regular season Bonner is a decent player to have on the court and his abilities as a stretch 4 add a new dimension. He'll definitely help you win ball games. The issue is more him wilting when the pressure's on. I like how Pop's handled the situation this season.

[ElNono]

I actually don't have a problem with giving him Blair's minutes to start in the regular season. Pop would just need to ease into a 3 big rotation so that the guys are used to the minute increase in time for the playoffs.

I'm so fed up with Blair, I agree. The only obvious concern is Pop's love affair with Matty, which makes him think he can do the same in May.

[cd021]

What do you expect from someone being paid under the league average.

Ginobili was outperformed by Brent Barry against the La Lakers in '08
Parker, & Duncan both under performed against the Grizzlies in the '10 Playoffs
Parker & Duncan struggled against the Thunder late in '11 Playoffs

Regular season matters games have to be played, minutes have to be filled. He fills them and produces at an efficient clip.

Playoffs are irrelevant part of the argument. If he also hasn't played nearly enough minutes for the same stats to be compiled.Benches shorten starters play more minutes. Bonner can't be blamed for Pop playing 8 or 9 can he? Stars justify their contracts in the postseason. He has more than justified his. Your argument is pretty laughable your acting like he ponzied the spurs out money.

[cd021]

that's all cool. What are his numbers for the playoff?

What do you expect from someone being paid under the league average.

Ginobili was outperformed by Brent Barry against the La Lakers in '08
Parker, & Duncan both under performed against the Grizzlies in the '10 Playoffs
Parker & Duncan struggled against the Thunder late in '11 Playoffs

Regular season matters games have to be played, minutes have to be filled. He fills them and produces at an efficient clip.

Playoffs are irrelevant part of the argument. If he also hasn't played nearly enough minutes for the same stats to be compiled.Benches shorten starters play more minutes. Bonner can't be blamed for Pop playing 8 or 9 can he? Stars justify their contracts in the postseason. He has more than justified his. Your argument is pretty laughable your acting like he ponzied the spurs out money.

[ElNono]

Playoffs are irrelevant part of the argument.

For a team like the Spurs who have consistently made the playoffs and have championship aspirations, the playoffs are the main focus and goal.

I mean, after all, you don't get a trophy for winning the regular season.

And I'm not even going to go with "what he gets paid". That's completely irrelevant to his inconsistency. All Spurs players are paid to produce in *ALL* games. Some games they do, some games they don't. The problem for Matty is that he *consistently* tanks during the playoffs. Bones was great in 2005-2007. And I don't think I have to say anything about Tony, Manu and Duncan.

[ElNono]

Again, if your argument is "he should get more regular season minutes", okay... I can buy that. The problem is that it doesn't scale into the postseason.

We can run through the numbers (we've done it many times before)... when the playoffs roll around, he chokes. Most (in some instances ALL) of his numbers drop in the playoffs, sometimes considerably. We're talking about a guy that's a one trick pony to begin with.

[ElNono]

BTW, nothing personal, I appreciate your writeup (which I hope to read when I have some time). This discussion about Matty is entering it's 4th season now (at the very least).

He's a hard worker and a good guy, but he chokes. There would be nothing that would make me happier to see him grab more than 6 rebounds consistently and seeing him not shrivel up in the playoffs.

But the next time that happens will be the first.

[TheSkeptic]

I'm so fed up with Blair, I agree. The only obvious concern is Pop's love affair with Matty, which makes him think he can do the same in May.

That does worry me a bit because of all the history there but it really seems like Pop has turned over a new leaf this season. I don't want to take this game's rotation too seriously since the team was obviously missing players, but the coach seems to know he can't count on Bonner now. I like his treatment of Diaw and Splitter this year, his handling of the backcourt, his in-game adjustments, and so on.

Hmm...I'm actually inclined to say that until we start seeing more evidence of an unhealthy Bonner dependence, I'm going to trust Pop's judgement for now.

[ElNono]

That does worry me a bit because of all the history there but it really seems like Pop has turned over a new leaf this season. I don't want to take this game's rotation too seriously since the team was obviously missing players, but the coach seems to know he can't count on Bonner now. I like his treatment of Diaw and Splitter this year, his handling of the backcourt, his in-game adjustments, and so on.

Hmm...I'm actually inclined to say that until we start seeing more evidence of an unhealthy Bonner dependence, I'm going to trust Pop's judgement for now.

He's got his usual 20 minutes tonight. Granted, he pulled down 12 boards, so when he does that you can't complain. But that kind of run isn't a good sign.

Then again, maybe once Jack is back, he can play the small-ball jack lineup (which I like), and this won't be an issue.

[TheSkeptic]

He's got his usual 20 minutes tonight. Granted, he pulled down 12 boards, so when he does that you can't complain. But that kind of run isn't a good sign.

Then again, maybe once Jack is back, he can play the small-ball jack lineup (which I like), and this won't be an issue.

Agreed. Bonner's been going hard after the boards lately. But after what happened last playoffs, I'd be surprised (and furious) if Bonner was getting minutes like this in the playoffs.

I think Kawhi's another option I'd take over Bonner at the backup 4 as well. Anyway, I'm more or less thinking Bonner drops out of the rotation or plays Blair's minutes once Jax/Kawhi are back.

At least that's what I keep telling myself. If Matty starts taking minutes from Diaw or Tiago that'll be a serious problem.

[DesignatedT]

Seeing Pop playing Tim and Tiago together this season gives me some hope that he will use it come playoff time. Diaw-Duncan-Splitter all getting heavy minutes MIGHT be able to cut it as the big rotation in the playoffs with Bonner getting spot minutes. Can't emphasize that last part enough. Spot minutes. As in a situational 3 or offense is struggling so put him in for the last 4 minutes of the quarter type of . He should never EVER see the court in the 4th quarter unless it's a blowout.

[DesignatedT]

Plus, against teams that go small the Spurs will/should use Tony-Manu-Leonard-Jack-Tim lineup. Which was by far our best lineup last year during the WCF.

[ElNono]

Seeing Pop playing Tim and Tiago together this season gives me some hope that he will use it come playoff time. Diaw-Duncan-Splitter all getting heavy minutes MIGHT be able to cut it as the big rotation in the playoffs with Bonner getting spot minutes. Can't emphasize that last part enough. Spot minutes. As in a situational 3 or offense is struggling so put him in for the last 4 minutes of the quarter type of . He should never EVER see the court in the 4th quarter unless it's a blowout.

I'll buy this. I think it's going to be heavily dependent on Splitter not ting the bed from the freebie line. So far so good.

[cd021]

For a team like the Spurs who have consistently made the playoffs and have championship aspirations, the playoffs are the main focus and goal.

I mean, after all, you don't get a trophy for winning the regular season.

And I'm not even going to go with "what he gets paid". That's completely irrelevant to his inconsistency. All Spurs players are paid to produce in *ALL* games. Some games they do, some games they don't. The problem for Matty is that he *consistently* tanks during the playoffs. Bones was great in 2005-2007. And I don't think I have to say anything about Tony, Manu and Duncan.

Playoffs do matter I meant with the context of the le of the thread it was irrelevant. Without strong regular season play their isn't post season play (we both should be able to agree on as much) you seem to be underrating the regular season. That can't be underrated especially from an older team that has to account for 48 minutes at each of the 5 positions 82 times a year. Bonner plays about 75 games a season at 20mpg. He produces at a high rate in those minutes.

That is not an opinion, that is fact virtually any advanced stat will prove that. Players are paid to produce but their contract aren't usually earned based on post season play. The ones that do usually turnout to be outrageously bad in the long run (Jermaine James, for example by for Seattle played great against the Kings and got a 6 year 60 million deal, that became one of the worst contracts in league history).

As I said before rotations shorten, Starters play more minutes. That directly impacts his production. Duncan will play about 35 minutes a game in the playoffs. That leaves a total of 61 minutes to be divided between Bonner, Blair, Splitter, Jackson, & Diaw. (Follow me so far?) Splitter will take about 22, Diaw about 24, that leaves about 16 minutes for 3 players, with Jackson closing out games at PF that leaves about 8 (10 tops) if Bonner plays he will have to produce at the same clip that he does in the regular season in half the time.

Your argument that he doesn't produce in the playoffs isn't entirely accurate. He stretches the floor, team play man to man without doubling nearly as much in the postseason. Even without the big 3 drawing doubles. He forces bigs (ala Blake, Z-BO Pau Gasol) away from the rim. That is invaluable and difficult to put into numbers. +,- is close but can be incredible misleading at times. Its like the shot blocker argument, just because he doesn't block shots a doesn't mean he didn't have an impact defensively.

[ElNono]

Without strong regular season play their isn't post season play (we both should be able to agree on as much) you seem to be underrating the regular season.

I simply disagree Bonner is a difference maker in that area. The Spurs can and should make the playoffs as constructed and barring severe injuries to it's stars, regardless if Matt Bonner plays or not.

You could tell me the Spurs would win 50 games instead of 55-60 without Matt, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. In the long term, you're better off getting a team ready without depending on a player that will disappear come May.

Your argument that he doesn't produce in the playoffs isn't entirely accurate.

Use the search function. It's your friend, and you'll see its completely accurate. King of plus/minus has not posted a positive plus minus for at least the past two playoffs. At least last playoffs, his stats (ALL of them) have gone down.

Feel free to prove me wrong on that one.

[cd021]

BTW, nothing personal, I appreciate your writeup (which I hope to read when I have some time). This discussion about Matty is entering it's 4th season now (at the very least).

He's a hard worker and a good guy, but he chokes. There would be nothing that would make me happier to see him grab more than 6 rebounds consistently and seeing him not shrivel up in the playoffs.

Thanks. It took some time to write. That kind of why I'm defending it this hard. All I'm really saying is he isn't nearly as bad as people are making him out to be. That being said I actually like the small ball lineups of Tony, Manu, Kawhi, Jackson, & Duncan. Diaw could become more of asset in those lineups when he isn't passive. But for the money he isn't bad at all. Agree to disagree i guess.
But the next time that happens will be the first.

[ElNono]

It's all good. I've had this conversation over the past 4 seasons with Mel_13, z0sa, and probably a bunch of other guys... the whole "he isn't as bad as people make him out to be" is a common theme during the regular season. But it's shortsighted, and Matty sure loves to prove me right when May rolls around.

[Obstructed_View]

I bet you blame Pop for not playing Rasho against Dirk and the Mavs in the '06-07 Playoffs.

I'm unsure who else there is to blame for that. It's not like Rasho and Nazr asked not to play. Also, really terrible analogy.