Once Ian arrives, does duncan slide to the five?

[dbreiden83080]

With a full offseason of rest i expect Duncan to have a monster year next year in the 24 and 12 range, if the Spurs are healthy they will win 60 plus games and maybe he is MVP again, depends on how much damn Lebron Media Hype there is, if they are looking to hand him the award, we will see.

[xcoriate]

If we pick up Webber after he gets cut, I say R2D's name be officially changed to Webber2Duncan.

Or indeed Webber2Webber as the comparison goes...

As for expecting Ian to come over and Duncan to defer to him ala D-Rob is highly unlikely even stupid. First of lets assume Ian comes after 3 years he would have to be an incredible prospect and a brilliant force for him to be better to Duncan or have a hope in surpassing Duncan. Duncan is one of the greatest of all time expecting this kid to be better is ridiculous and an unrealistic expectation given that even our most succesful picks are not considered on this level.

[whottt]

Personally I agree with you.....but Duncan own feelings are what cause this issue...and I thought about it for a long time...What's his problem?

I have never totally understood Duncan's reluctance to play C...

I don't think it's playing C that bothers him, he does it anyway...I think it's not being able to play PF that bothers him....

It's not just that there is no difference though, it's a well do ented point of contention for Duncan...I mean for Duncan there is no difference in his ability to play either...because he truly can do both....

But if he has a teamate that can't play C on offense, or that can only score out of the PF spot, he'll have to play C almost exclusively on offense...that's where his problem with it comes in...

If he gets a guy here that can't play C on offense or has no under the basket game...he will have to play C on offense and I think that's the reason he has made it known he doesn't want to play C...he doesn't want to be locked into that position...on offense...

I think it's been do ented that during FA in 03 Duncan prefered a guy who could play C being signed over one who was strictly a PF...

If you get a guy that doesn't have the offensive moves to play C and that can only score from the PF slot...Duncan won't get the ball in 4 down as much,or any PF spot as much... he'll get it at the 5 spot, more into the paint, closer to the basket, so the 4 can feed off of him.....


That's the only reason I can think of...it doesn't make much sense...but I can't think of any other reason...


If someone has a better reasoning behind it I am all ears...but I don't think it's got anything to do with All NBA teams or the All Star Game...etc.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Lets just hope this french pastry growns another new inches say sumthing around the height of 7'2

[whottt]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 12 (8 members and 4 guests)
whottt, timvp, Sense, usckk, zedman, Mr. Body, dbreiden83080, TexasBalla1001

Your thoughts?

[whottt]

Dude, whottt. Are you trying for the record or something? You put the "super' in the word superfluous.

What does that mean? IF it's good I'm it.

Why don't you step out of the peanut gallery for a change...and give us your thoughts on the subject...

I personally have always wondered why Duncan doesn't want to be the C even though he does it already(I think it's more than he wants another starting C on the team instead of a PF)...

[ChumpDumper]

I always thought it had more to do with defense as played by the Spurs. The "center" (whoever isn't Duncan) guards the main post threat on the block, which back when Duncan came into the league were guys like like Ewing, Olajuwon and especially Shaq. Duncan is enormously better suited to roaming and helping rather than doing the defensive heavy lifting throughout the game, and I think he wasn't afraid to say he'd rather have someone else doing that work -- that guy would seem to be able to handle those opponents better if he was a center -- especially against Shaq.

This is another fairly weak argument, but given the roles played by Duncan and DRob, it's the only one I can think of.

[whottt]

It just depends...I've seen teams give the C the easier assignment a lot of times...Hakeem was just about the greatest Defensive C ever...he didn't guard Drob hardly at all in the 94-95 WCF...

I never saw Shaq guarding Duncan very much either...

And Drob was much better defender than Duncan once he became the secondary offensive weapon it was a no brainer he would always draw the toughest defensive assignemtn...come to think of it...poor Drob usually drew the toughest assignment even when he had Rodman on his team...like I said...the smart teams didn't always do that.


I think it definitely has to do with offense...if Duncan gets a teamate that can't score effectively under the basket but can be effective from mid and off his dribble...Duncan will have to be the under the basket guy...and he'll have to effectively shelve his beloved bank and mid J.


For the purposes of this argument....I don't think Duncan cares what postion Mianmi will play...because his offensive game isn't gonna let him be much of a PF. Defensively that kid is going to be a C as well...IMO.

[ChumpDumper]

I think it definitely has to do with offense...if Duncan gets a teamate that can't score effectively under the basket but can be effective from mid and off his dribble...Duncan will have to be the under the basket guy...and he'll have to effectively shelve his beloved bank and mid J.

I'd agree if DRob and Rasho didn't spend most of the last seven seasons parked up at the free throw line.

[whottt]

I know one thing...the offensive reason would explain why Rasho is probably on his way out now that Nazr is here...even though Rasho is the better defender and is a Pop favorite...

Rasho has no under the basket game on offense...that's all Nazr has.

[whottt]

I'd agree if DRob and Rasho didn't spend most of the last seven seasons parked up at the free throw line.

Drob didn't have the protypical offensive game of a C...and neither does Rasho.

[TheTruth]

Timmy plays 65% ctr now anyway. Its going to be even more next year with Scola coming aboard.

I know Tim doesn't like to be called a "center" but that is what he is. He probably moves to ctr sooner than when Mianmi arrives. I hope that Scola tears it up next year, and we move him to the 4 and Timmy to the 5 by 2006-7.

[TheTruth]

Drob didn't have the protypical offensive game of a C...and neither does Rasho.

Rasho has an Offensive game?

[ChumpDumper]

Drob didn't have the protypical offensive game of a C.

It's well do eted that DRob was moved out of the post after Duncan's first season.

neither does Rasho.

We only see Rasho's full game when Duncan is injured, it's fairly complete. Why do you think Rasho was their boy that offseason? The jumper. Why do you think Malik took all those 18 footers?

[whottt]

It's well do eted that DRob was moved out of the post after Duncan's first season.

What's your point? I already said Drob didn't have the offensive game of a C...his best move was facing up and driving...like a PF...his best offensive season came playing the PF spot as well...but Drob could still spot up at the 5 and do garbage work...Duncan didn't have a choice on Drob anyway.

We only see Rasho's full game when Duncan is injured, it's fairly complete.

Seeing it when Duncan is injured is very meaningful to the point I am making.

Complete? Not really...we see his jumper...it's a good one...but that's about it...even his close to the basket moves aren't those of a C IMO.

Why do you think Rasho was their boy that offseason?

Because he could block shots, was a bargain, and they thought they could turn him into a dunker.

The jumper.

LOL...yeah, that's why he uses it so much...they don't even run any plays for it.

Why do you think Malik took all those 18 footers?

You mean when Duncan was out of the game?

[ChumpDumper]

LOL...yeah, that's why he uses it so much...they don't even run any plays for it.

Of course not, they didn't run it for DRob either -- it's a safety valve when Duncan is doubled. They don't even have that with Nazr -- he is never an option for a first shot jumper -- only a cut or an offensive board. That was the main reason I thought Thomas would be a better fit -- range.

You mean when Duncan was out of the game?

No, when he was in the game too.

They got Rasho because he could A) block shots and guard guys like Shaq and B) maintain the offensive spacing that the Spurs achieved once they moved DRob out of the low post.

[timvp]

This is one of the hardest questions to answer. It's difficult because, for starters, we don't even know that Duncan doesn't want to play center. He's never come out and said those words. It's kind of always just been the rumor ... but it's also backed up with reality. Whoever starts next to Duncan is always refered to as the center. Even that time that Danny Ferry started next to Duncan in the playoffs versus Phoenix, Ferry was the "center"

Even though Duncan has never said it, I'm pretty sure he wants to be a power forward for the rest of his career. This summer when he shrank from 7-foot to 6-foot-11 or whatever was just another indication that he's trying to fit the power forward mold.

As whottt suggested, I actually do believe that the main reason is Duncan's legacy. He wants to be the best power forward ever. A lot of people regard him as the best ever already. If he were to all of a sudden play center, where would you rank him? It'd be hard to say that he's the best power forward ever when he spent the second half of his career as a center.

So yeah, even though Duncan usually doesn't care about what people think or how he's rated, I do think he wants to remain a power forward for historical reasons. Over the years, obviously, he's pretty much been a center. Look at the playoffs, when Horry is in Duncan is no doubt the center.

The only thing that makes me not 100% certain of this is looking back at the players the Spurs tried to sign over the years. Chris Webber, Jermaine O'Neal and Elton Brand come to mind as players, who if the Spurs signed them, would have to refered to as power forwards. I don't think he could hide the fact that he's a center when he has the 6-foot-5 Brand next to him.

Other reasons don't make too much sense to me. Defensively, perhaps he doesn't want to be pigeon-holed into always being stuck on the big lumbering center. David Robinson, and now Nazr Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic, often guarded the other team's center. Duncan usually begins the game guarding the other teams power forward. However this isn't always the case when the other team has a superstar power forward. Against the Suns, Duncan wasn't matched up against Amare Stoudemire unless he had to be. Against the Timberwolves, he's not put on Garnett until the fourth quarters.

The role of a power forward and center in the Spurs' defense isn't too different. They both have to rotate and they both are expected to block shots. It's not like the team only directs the opponents to the center. It's just a matter of which bigman is on the strong side of the ball.

Offensively, Duncan is playing pretty much the same and is in the same spots on the court no matter who is in the game. Of course he'll have more room to operate if Horry is on the court than when compared to Nazr, but he's pretty much in the same spots. 4-Down is pretty much the same no matter who is on the court with him.

I can't really think of why it seems Duncan perfers being a power forward other than legacy. I know it doesn't go with his personality or selfless history, but it's the only thing that makes sense. Especially considering the shrinkage in height this summer that puts him more into the "power forward" category.

Or perhaps, it boils down to him enjoying inbounding the ball. Whoever the power forward on the court is inbounds the ball after made baskets by the other team. The center does not. Could that be the answer?

[ChumpDumper]

He doesn't like going up for the opening tip.

That has to be it.

[AI-square]

Maybe he doesn't want all the Shaq comparisons.

[whottt]

Of course not, they didn't run it for DRob either -- it's a safety valve when Duncan is doubled.

You act like Duncan never plays out of the high post...he does...he takes more shots from the high post than Drob did or Rasho does as well...

Matter of fact...he really didn't do that his rookie year...the year he shot the highest PCt of his career.


It's more like they just stopped running plays for Drob...he still spent time on the low post even when Duncan was working out of the low post...so does Rasho.

When they ran plays for David it was the ISO out of the right where he could drive on his man for a dunk or to draw a foul...It was more of a PF move than a C move...I agree...but that's because David could never back his man down...


But you look at where Duncan gets the ball the most...he's well outside of the paint...4 down he gets the ball outside of the paint...further outside than Drob ever got it.

They got Rasho because he could A) block shots and guard guys like Shaq and B) maintain the offensive spacing that the Spurs achieved once they moved DRob out of the low post.

I think they viewed the J as a positive, but it's not like C never shoot J out of the high post if they have the ability... but more importantly I think they fully intended to develop his game into more of an under the basket game...

I know they did...they had sessions with Rasho where all he would do was dunk the ball...Rasho got a few low post moves than McHale taught him as well...but the bottom line is that Rasho's offense is an afterthought...even moreso that Drob's was.

[whottt]

He doesn't like going up for the opening tip.

That has to be it.

He won't have to worry about that with Ian...

[SouthernFried]

I think it boils down to, Duncan has more options at PF.

He gets the ball further away from the bucket, and can analyze the court much better at that position. Which he does, to the chagrin of many who wish he'd just make a quick move to the basket.

Instead of taking it up strong, he looks around...watches for double teams and mismatches, then decides whether to back down his defender, shoot, or pass. I thiink we have more options coming out of the PF position than any other team in history because of Duncan. He doesn't just score from that position, he runs the court from it.

When a C gets the ball, people tend to converge cuz he's lower in the paint, his options are less, and he has to make moves quicker to avoid the crowd. Duncan works better with space to move and look around. That's Duncan at his best.

Not discounting the PF Legacy thing...but, I think that's more a result of his success at the position, rather than a thought-out strategy to ensure his "best ever PF" legend.

[Solid D]

Whottt, I have talked about this subject numerous times in here. I don't know Tim's internal mindset of why he wants to be listed as a PF, but since he left Wake Forest, he was brought in to play the PF (4) beside David and David was always listed as a Center (5). Tim is not a leaper, so he's never jumped that well at the opening tip against some of the 7 footers, a traditional Center function.

As long as Shaq is playing, he will be considered the top Center because of his sheer force in the paint. Tim has a fair chance at being considered the top player at his position if he is officially listed as PF. So maybe, that's the reason Tim likes to be listed as such. Managing perception is as important a factor as anything in many areas of life and not just in sports.

The reality is that the 4 and 5 positions in many offenses are basically the same function. It provides for more flexibility on ball reversals and moving the defense around when you can present posts on either side or high and low. Henry Iba's motion offense passed down through the generations to the Knights, Suttons, etc. and motion-based offenses like the Flex, Princeton, or even the Triangle can have both the 4 or 5 as post players.

When a post player can back screen out on the floor (15-18 feet) for a wing player and have the range to shoot from there like Duncan can, it changes the strategy as to who defends them, thus Duncan tends to draw the smaller of the two bigs on him.

Tim has such a strong base and big backside that he can play with his back to the basket and play a traditional pivot's role. Pop uses Tim as both a 4 and 5, and it often depends on who's in the game, offensively and defensively.

The Jump Center, for which we get the shortened name "Center" (back when a jump ball was held after every made basket) has morphed over time into the tallest or one of the tallest players with an inside presence. It's not as clear-cut as it used to be.

In fact, a case can be made for the Spurs using Tim as a Center/Pivot the way the Lakers used to use Mikan as a Center in the pivot, as the pivotal hub of a weaving and pass-to-the open man offense. Even though Pop may call it 4-down on the block and there's a little less weave and more cut through and move for spacing, he is still the "Center" of the offense. But that's playing with the name Center and not really using it in it's original context.

It's all a management of perception and not necessarily reality. Tim is a post/pivot player but officially he wants to be called a Power Forward. Whatever...

[whottt]

This is one of the hardest questions to answer. It's difficult because, for starters, we don't even know that Duncan doesn't want to play center. He's never come out and said those words. It's kind of always just been the rumor ... but it's also backed up with reality. Whoever starts next to Duncan is always refered to as the center. Even that time that Danny Ferry started next to Duncan in the playoffs versus Phoenix, Ferry was the "center"

Even though Duncan has never said it, I'm pretty sure he wants to be a power forward for the rest of his career. This summer when he shrank from 7-foot to 6-foot-11 or whatever was just another indication that he's trying to fit the power forward mold.

As whottt suggested, I actually do believe that the main reason is Duncan's legacy. He wants to be the best power forward ever. A lot of people regard him as the best ever already. If he were to all of a sudden play center, where would you rank him? It'd be hard to say that he's the best power forward ever when he spent the second half of his career as a center.

So yeah, even though Duncan usually doesn't care about what people think or how he's rated, I do think he wants to remain a power forward for historical reasons. Over the years, obviously, he's pretty much been a center. Look at the playoffs, when Horry is in Duncan is no doubt the center.

The only thing that makes me not 100% certain of this is looking back at the players the Spurs tried to sign over the years. Chris Webber, Jermaine O'Neal and Elton Brand come to mind as players, who if the Spurs signed them, would have to refered to as power forwards. I don't think he could hide the fact that he's a center when he has the 6-foot-5 Brand next to him.

Other reasons don't make too much sense to me. Defensively, perhaps he doesn't want to be pigeon-holed into always being stuck on the big lumbering center. David Robinson, and now Nazr Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic, often guarded the other team's center. Duncan usually begins the game guarding the other teams power forward. However this isn't always the case when the other team has a superstar power forward. Against the Suns, Duncan wasn't matched up against Amare Stoudemire unless he had to be. Against the Timberwolves, he's not put on Garnett until the fourth quarters.

The role of a power forward and center in the Spurs' defense isn't too different. They both have to rotate and they both are expected to block shots. It's not like the team only directs the opponents to the center. It's just a matter of which bigman is on the strong side of the ball.

Offensively, Duncan is playing pretty much the same and is in the same spots on the court no matter who is in the game. Of course he'll have more room to operate if Horry is on the court than when compared to Nazr, but he's pretty much in the same spots. 4-Down is pretty much the same no matter who is on the court with him.

I can't really think of why it seems Duncan perfers being a power forward other than legacy. I know it doesn't go with his personality or selfless history, but it's the only thing that makes sense. Especially considering the shrinkage in height this summer that puts him more into the "power forward" category.

Or perhaps, it boils down to him enjoying inbounding the ball. Whoever the power forward on the court is inbounds the ball after made baskets by the other team. The center does not. Could that be the answer?

Some pretty good takes but I am almost certain Tony said he doesn't want to play C in a recent interview.

[whottt]

Someone just needs to ask Duncan...

I am almost certain that Parker has confirmed he doesn't want to be a C...whether that means totally play C or be considered a C is up to debate...

Where it gets confusing is that we are all pointin out how Duncan plays a lot of C or out of the positions that most C's traditionally play out of...and how our C's tend to play a lot out of the high post....well C's that have J's do interchange...

Like I said earlier...Duncan is a C whether he wants to be called one or not...he's a C. He's got the shotblocking, the defense, the rebounding, the under the basket game...

He's got it...and he plays it all the time.

But as a PF he has the option of playing further out from the paint on a regular basis on offense...he gets to more fully utilize his skill set...


Maybe TimVP is right...maybe it's that he really does want to be considered the greatest PF of all time...

But ironically, the reasons he is considered the greatest PF of all time are because of his C traits...his shotblocking...his ability to back his man down...and his ability to dominate under the basket...

Kori's just got to ask him sometime...

I think if he had a choice of losing or being the C all the time...he'd be the C...you know...I don't think it's that big of a deal to him, more like a preference...but it is something I want to know the answer to.