Knicks: Melo in the 4th

[Jodelo]

I said he was great. He's just not the MVP.

He should take over games every night but he doesn't because apparently that's not his job. Say what you want with Kobe, but even if he's having a ty shooting night, more often than not, he empties his clip. He's a cold blooded killer - something LeBron only shows on occasion.

He gets his teammates involved, rightfully so. I know that's something Laker"fans" don't know but it is not the wrong choice. And he has taken enough games over. He just does not need 41 shots to get 34 points a night...

Yep. In the same way a street gang member is. Usually missing his intended target and hitting an innocent instead.

[midnightpulp]

That's cherry picking, as well.

Here's an elimination game from his days in Cleveland:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...905280CLE.html

Has Kirby ever had a performance like when his team was on the brink of going home?

Kirb in the same situation. Down 3-1. At home. Win or go home.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...806150LAL.html

So clutch.

[LkrFan]

That's cherry picking, as well.

Here's an elimination game from his days in Cleveland:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...905280CLE.html

Has Kirby ever had a performance like when his team was on the brink of going home?

Players are judged by whether they won or not. Kobe's done it 5 times. People won't really give a about triple doubles. Magic has way more than LBJ, but what is he remembered by? Winning. Magic won 5 out 9 times in the Finals. Kobe won 5 out of 7. LBJ won 1 out of 3.

Until he wins his 5th (here's a hint: he won't), you can't compare the two. LeBron shouldn't even be in the same conversation but you gots keep doing it any way.

And since you keep bringing Kobe into threads that don't have to do with him, here are things Kobe has done that LeBron never will:

81 points
5 rings

Now. that .

[LkrFan]

Kirb in the same situation. Down 3-1. At home. Win or go home.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...806150LAL.html

So clutch.

Isn't that the same Celtic team that kicked the LeBron-lead Cavs out of the playoffs det year - in the 2nd round?

got.

[midnightpulp]

Players are judged by whether they won or not. Kobe's done it 5 times. People won't really give a about triple doubles. Magic has way more than LBJ, but what is he remembered by? Winning. Magic won 5 out 9 times in the Finals. Kobe won 5 out of 7. LBJ won 1 out of 3.

Until he wins his 5th (here's a hint: he won't), you can't compare the two. LeBron shouldn't even be in the same conversation but you gots keep doing it any way.

And since you keep bringing Kobe into threads that don't have to do with him, here are things Kobe has done that LeBron never will:

81 points
5 rings

Now. that .

Defaulting to ring smack cause you're getting owned.

Your logic:

Wade>Jerry West

And let's not forget about a player named Shaquille O'Neal who Kirby had the luxury of playing with for half his career. Up until Lebron joined the Heat, the best second option he ever had was Mo Williams. Think about that for a second.

While we're on the subject of regular season accomplishments, something Kirby will never do is win 3 MVPs, a much more impressive feat than chucking up 50 shots and shooting 30 FTs to score 81 points against the then worst team in the league.

[midnightpulp]

Isn't that the same Celtic team that kicked the LeBron-lead Cavs out of the playoffs det year - in the 2nd round?

got.

You thought you had a zinger there, didn't you?

Guess what? Lebron, with Big Z as his number 2, took that Celtic team to 7 games, didn't lose by 40 in the closeout, and put up what was probably the best individual performance of that year's playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...805180BOS.html

I suggest logging off and go opening presents or drowning yourself in eggnog, cause talking basketball with me right now isn't working out too well for you.

[LkrFan]

Defaulting to ring smack cause you're getting owned.

Your logic:

Wade>Jerry West

And let's not forget about a player named Shaquille O'Neal who Kirby had the luxury of playing with for half his career. Up until Lebron joined the Heat, the best second option he ever had was Mo Williams. Think about that for a second.

While we're on the subject of regular season accomplishments, something Kirby will never do is win 3 MVPs, a much more impressive feat than chucking up 50 shots and shooting 30 FTs to score 81 points against the then worst team in the league.

Owned? You're bringing up meaningless stats. He's a walking stat line. But he only won once.

Logo >> D-Whistle. It's not even close.

LeBron played with Shaq too. Results: 1st round exit. Your other comment about Shaq would have weight if not for the fact that since their split it's Kobe 2, Shaq 1. And he wouldn't have that if Wade didn't shoot more FTAs than any guard in Finals history v. Mavs. Yes, even more than his Airness.

Oh, and if Colorado never happened, Kobe is sitting on at least 4 MVPs. Remember, it's a meaningless media award.

[midnightpulp]

Owned? You're bringing up meaningless stats. He's a walking stat line. But he only won once.

Logo >> D-Whistle. It's not even close.

LeBron played with Shaq too. Results: 1st round exit. Your other comment about Shaq would have weight if not for the fact that since their split it's Kobe 2, Shaq 1. And he wouldn't have that if Wade didn't shoot more FTAs than any guard in Finals history v. Mavs. Yes, even more than his Airness.

Oh, and if Colorado never happened, Kobe is sitting on at least 4 MVPs. Remember, it's a meaningless media award.

Now he's counterpointing with conspiracy theories and suggesting a 38 year old Shaq was anywhere near the same player that carried Kirby. And lol at "at least 4 MVPs."

Only thing Kobe's ring count post-Shaq proves is that he played on stacked teams, which he did. Before the Gasol trade, we all know Kobe was missing the playoffs and getting ed by the Suns.

[LkrFan]

Now he's counterpointing with conspiracy theories and suggesting a 38 year old Shaq was anywhere near the same player that carried Kirby. And lol at "at least 4 MVPs."

Only thing Kobe's ring count post-Shaq proves is that he played on stacked teams, which he did. Before the Gasol trade, we all know Kobe was missing the playoffs and getting ed by the Suns.

Kobe 5
TD 4*
Shaq 4
LeBron 1

^ Stings huh?

[midnightpulp]

Kobe 5
TD 4*
Shaq 4
LeBron 1

^ Stings huh?

Take that as your concession. Thanks for playing.

[LkrFan]

Now he's counterpointing with conspiracy theories and suggesting a 38 year old Shaq was anywhere near the same player that carried Kirby. And lol at "at least 4 MVPs."

Only thing Kobe's ring count post-Shaq proves is that he played on stacked teams, which he did. Before the Gasol trade, we all know Kobe was missing the playoffs and getting ed by the Suns.

2010: One 1st ballot HOFer beat 3. Were the Celtics (who knocked LeBron's Cavs out the playoffs) NOT stacked?

[midnightpulp]

2010: One 1st ballot HOFer beat 3. Were the Celtics (who knocked LeBron's Cavs out the playoffs) NOT stacked?

No first ballot Hall of Famers beat 4 in '04. 1 top ten player of all time beat 2 top ten players of all-time in '03.

I can play that game, too. And it's re ed.

Those '10 Celts had a good squad. I wouldn't consider them "stacked," since their big 3 were past their primes. But they gelled well and played great team basketball. Lakers were still better on paper, though.

[Jodelo]

LkrFan going back to the ring talk!

LeBron is better than Kobe, neal with it.

[Brunodf]

I don't think that a player deserves the MVP when his team is better without him...

[Cry Havoc]

He should take over games every night but he doesn't because apparently that's not his job. Say what you want with Kobe, but even if he's having a ty shooting night, more often than not, he empties his clip. He's a cold blooded killer - something LeBron only shows on occasion.

You should really stop posting.

[LkrFan]

You should really stop posting.

You giving him a pass for not dominating scrubs in the 4th qtr, but I'm not. They scored 12 pathetic points in a home game and lost. Against scrubs, he should have scored at least 15 - but again, it's "not his job" to score a ton of points - even though his team needed him to do so. You'd think Pippen, Rodman, or Bowen was checking him the way they locked dat ass down.

Blowing det game without Melo just might haunt them when it's all said and done. It's enough Daddy Tyson cut off his 2nd option (Bosh) holding his got ass to 3/12 in det game. Wade was no better with his 3/13 offering. Seeing that type of pathetic support should have sent LeBron into scoring mode but that's not in his job description.

[LkrFan]

LkrFan going back to the ring talk!

LeBron is better than Kobe, neal with it.

Rings matter. It's what separates TD & Mailman in the GOAT PF argument (Mailman offensively > TD and TD defensively > Mailman in my book). The difference? 4>0.

[LkrFan]

No first ballot Hall of Famers beat 4 in '04. 1 top ten player of all time beat 2 top ten players of all-time in '03.

I can play that game, too. And it's re ed.

Those '10 Celts had a good squad. I wouldn't consider them "stacked," since their big 3 were past their primes. But they gelled well and played great team basketball. Lakers were still better on paper, though.

Fair enough points. However, I disagree on the talent argument:

Kobe > Ray Allen
Pierce > MWP
KG > Gasol

Advantage: Boston. Bynum was on one leg. Had him and Perk been 100% I would have agreed with you regarding talent.

[Cry Havoc]

Rings matter. It's what separates TD & Mailman in the GOAT PF argument (Mailman offensively > TD and TD defensively > Mailman in my book). The difference? 4>0.

You don't think that's just a bit overly simplistic? I mean, Howard is better on D than Malone, Malone is better on offense than Howard, does that mean they're equal players?

Malone had a history of not stepping up in big games. His skills were not diverse enough to translate to the playoffs, and the team usually didn't have enough around him to punish teams for focusing him on D.

Malone was an excellent offensive player and a good defensive player. Duncan is historically an excellent offensive player (not quite as good as Malone) and one of the best defenders in NBA history. The disparity between Duncan and Malone on offense is not nearly the same as the comparison on D. Duncan is miles ahead of Mailman on the defensive side of things, and his team's performances throughout the years speak to that.

Malone never had a performance like Duncan has in the playoffs either. Those kind of "peak games" tend to stick out in people's minds, for better or worse.

[Technique]

At the end of the day is LeBron a better player than Melo? Sure. LeBron has a shot to become the GOAT. But, that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the regular season MVP. It's clear to me LeBron's team is taking this season quite casually. It's only natural for the defending champs to play with less hunger and determination at this point in the season.

The fact is, Melo has the Knicks united and focused. He's not just the league's most versatile scorer, he's all over on defense, crashing the boards and trusting his teammates. The result is the best record in the ECF. When Rose won MVP he wasn't a superior player to LeBron, he was doing good things with the Bulls - while LeBron was scrutinized for joining the Heat, especially when the Heat were under performing.

This is Melo's year. Just watch today's game against the Lakers, he's been doing it all and not just on the offensive end this year.

[Cry Havoc]

It's clear to me LeBron's team is taking this season quite casually. .

25.4, 8.5, and 6.8 on 54%/43% is casual to you?

The result is the best record in the ECF.

The Heat have the best record right now.

[Brunodf]

Rings matter. It's what separates TD & Mailman in the GOAT PF argument (Mailman offensively > TD and TD defensively > Mailman in my book). The difference? 4>0.

Of course rings matter, but when you actually lead your team...

Duncan is also much better under pressure.
Malone is one of the biggest chokers of all time, had a top 5 player of his generation in his team and couldn't win a ring

[LkrFan]

You don't think that's just a bit overly simplistic? I mean, Howard is better on D than Malone, Malone is better on offense than Howard, does that mean they're equal players?

Malone had a history of not stepping up in big games. His skills were not diverse enough to translate to the playoffs, and the team usually didn't have enough around him to punish teams for focusing him on D.

Malone was an excellent offensive player and a good defensive player. Duncan is historically an excellent offensive player (not quite as good as Malone) and one of the best defenders in NBA history. The disparity between Duncan and Malone on offense is not nearly the same as the comparison on D. Duncan is miles ahead of Mailman on the defensive side of things, and his team's performances throughout the years speak to that.

Malone never had a performance like Duncan has in the playoffs either. Those kind of "peak games" tend to stick out in people's minds, for better or worse.

Malone maybe didn't play up to par against TD, but I know against the Showtime Lakers he was dialed in more often than not. But he did step up in the playoffs. He just so happened to run into the eventual champion Bulls (Rodman to be exact). No shame in that.

i would have loved to see prime Malone v. TD. He was a load.

[Cry Havoc]

Malone maybe didn't play up to par against TD, but I know against the Showtime Lakers he was dialed in more often than not. But he did step up in the playoffs. He just so happened to run into the eventual champion Bulls (Rodman to be exact). No shame in that.

i would have loved to see prime Malone v. TD. He was a load.

But he also had two years when Jordan retired, as well as post-Jordan to win a ring. Not only did he not do that, the Jazz didn't make the Finals in that span. They lost to the Rockets twice, and then had several first round flameouts.

Malone was obviously a great player, just a slight step down from Duncan from what I've seen of them play. He just couldn't do enough on offense to offset the limited impact (by comparison) he had on D.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

LeBron played with Shaq too. Results: 1st round exit.

1) 2nd round exit. Quit revising history.

2) The Lebron also played with Shaq argument is one of the most intellectually dishonest I've ever seen

3) You're in re ed and that's why you're in the military