if we are going to talk about the spurs' championship chances, i say they are very slim regardless of duncan's resurgence and parker's improvement. durant and westbrook look absolutely dialed in this season. nothing is going to stop them from reaching the finals again. but we can always hope for injuries and/or miracle trade.
I think Parker needs to be able to play 40+ minutes in the playoffs for us to have a chance. The backup PG position is in shambles and I don't really think you can trust any of those guys for much. I felt last season if he could have stayed on the floor longer against OKC we probably could have won.
The thing about OKC is that while I do think their road to the Finals won't be that difficult, they're likely to be bounced out by Miami again when they do so. And in the playoffs, what happens when defenses cut off Westbrook's passing lanes and force Durant to try and carry the team? He can do that but everything should also go right for them (Westbrook proves that he's turned the corner on his decision-making, Martin doesn't make his playoff disappearing act, they face teams that don't make them pay for their turnover woes).
The bottom line is, only 1 team wins theout of 30, and only 5 or 6 have a realistic shot every year. Better to be in that group than hoping that a Shabazz Muhammad or a Nerlens Noel turns around your franchise.
IMO the problem wasn't TP's performance so much as it was the supporting cast deteriorating under pressure. Thankfully Manu seems to be playing well on a per-minute basis and TD's back in All-Star form. And the teams of the past two seasons couldn't defend because of's insistence on playing a spacing big with TD instead of realizing he had a great big man rotting on the bench, and because the wing situation was Manu/HWMNBN/some random guy on a 10 day contract.
I woke up this morning from a day dream of seeing the good guys running off the court after thrashing dirk, jet, kidd and cuban. Felt soooooo good. Ah yeah, it still feels good!
you can't really count on Manu anymore though to play well anymore on a regular basis like he used to so it's going to have to be the Big 2 and some of the other players stepping up consistently in the playoffs. I'm not worried about the starters but it's once Tim and Tony sit down who's going to carry the team? Manu can't anymore and we really don't have a backup pg that can fill in for Tony.
Last edited by TMTTRIO; 01-26-2013 at 10:01 AM.
This is where I consistently get pissed off about the evaluations of Parker vs. the other members of this team. LeBron James couldn't get a championship without Wade and Bosh. Kobe couldn't without Shaq. Durant couldn't. Yet. With anyone.
Chris Paul couldn't. yet.
You know who else couldn't? Tim Duncan!!
Parker deserved an A+ a couple of times this year when he didn't get it because you, Timvp, always seem to find something to complain about. I know he got one from you in the game before this one, but when he had a triple double, he couldn't even get one. Last night he gets three s ches in the eye that was hurt this summer, (which has to be scary for anyone), then returns to lead the team with points and assists without Tim and without Manu. If Tony hadn't been put back into the game in the waning moments, we would have lost this game.
TP is not a flashy player. He is not a naturally gifted passer, like Manu. His No.1 percentage shooting among all point guards in the entire league is a stat that has been earned by hard work and practice. He has worked his butt off for every year he has been here. He reminds me more of TD than anyone else in this regard...a lot of people think he is not as good as he really is because he has such a workmanlike approach to his game. People used to say that Tim was boring to watch...but his fundamentals were superior to almost anyone else. TP is not ever going to be accused of being the very best at his position to ever play the game, but this season his numbers are better than anyone in the history of the league exceptLarry Bird.
Lots of folks on this forum are so blinded by Tim's strengths that they seem singularly incapable of accepting that there is another superstar on the team whose contributions are as essential to the team as are Tim's. It is almost as though you somehow believe that you will be unfaithful to Timmy somehow by accepting just how important Tony is to this team in this era.
Tony will never be a league MVP unless Tim is gone and Pop lets TP play more minutes than he does. TP's stats would be much gaudier than they already are if he played the same number of minutes that lots of others do. That can't happen on a Pop team. That is a function of Pop, not the player.
Totally agree. He is one of the most interesting players I have ever seen. He's got this demeanor which looks like he just seems to know-it-all and seems to really get basketball. Sometimes he runs off of the bench in the beginning of the game with tremendous energy and looks especially spry. In other games, he looks like he'd rather be back in France doing whatever French guys do. I'm not sure what makes Diaw click, but whatever it is, I wish we could bottle it up and use it in the playoffs.
You're not the only one. I also thought Blair was all but done for and that his production was on a permanent downward spiral. It was pleasantly surprising to see him have a monster game. I only wished he could rebound in the beastly fashion that he once did.
Yes he is and there's no one even close. He's even underappreciated by many of the Spurs fandom. The fact remains that with Ginobili oft-injured and his skills and athleticism in decline, it has been Parker who has been carrying this team, with a lot of help from a resurging Duncan - and not just this year. Parker has just been downright scintillating. The most pleasing thing for me to see about him is the concerted effort he's made in becoming a better playmaker, as evidenced by the uptick in his assists - both this year and last. In doing so, he's becoming a more well-rounded PG. He continues to be the Spurs most important player. It's no coincidence that come playoff time, when teams have concentrated their defensive efforts into neutralizing Parker and keeping him out of the lane, the Spurs have fizzled. Parker is truly the engine for which the Spurs success is built around. And yes, there shouldn't be any questions that Parker is a virtual lock for the Basketball Hall of Fame
Agree. The Spurs do appear to be at a different rhythm when Kawhi is on the court. Certainly the defensive intensity appears to be amped up. Leonard appears to be on a progression track that will propel him into a role as the Spurs next big-time player in a couple of years.
Priceless.
I think someone has me confused with ElNono, tbh.
I spent this whole thread slurping TP, said he's the most underappreciated player in the league and gave him credit for carrying the team during this tumultuous time. The only thing that could be considered negative I said was that he's not on the same level as LeBron James and Kevin Durant. And somehow that caused an epic meltdown.
Wow.
I disagree with most of your statements in this quote. You did indeed ask about him being an under-appreciated player, and then, imo, proceed to under- appreciate him some more. If you actually gave him credit for carrying the team (as you suggest), why didn't you give him an A+?
I spent this whole thread slurping TP, said he's the most underappreciated player in the league and gave him credit for carrying the team during this tumultuous time. The only thing that could be considered negative I said was that he's not on the same level as LeBron James and Kevin Durant. And somehow that caused an epic meltdown.
Wow.
This is not a meltdown.
This is a disagreement.
I explained to you why I thought what I thought. You don't have to agree, and obviously you don't. But it is impossible for me not to notice that whenever you are challenged about the way in which you comment about Tony, you seem unaware of what you consistently do regarding him. I honestly believe what I said. I don't expect you to change. I rarely express my opinions about your comments about Tony. I believe that you have been much better at recognizing his contributions in the last season and this season than you were before, but you always seem to have a 'but he's not really that great' comment in there somewhere.
Part of what I find so difficult to accept is that you say that you grade players based on their potential or their ability, but then when you recognize that Tony's natural ability is not as great as some others', you always grade him as though he had the natural talent or athleticism of a Chris Paul or Manu Ginobili. I would respectfully ask you to think about that when you discuss his contributions to a game and to the team.
you seem to be spliting hairs here.
As long as I can remember, TIMVP is very fair to Parker and has always tried to rebalance things when Parker was/is underestimated by other Spurstalkers
I am not saying that Timvp never says positive things about Tony. But have you ever seen Timvp talk about his positive assessments of Tim as 'slurping'?
My point is that there is an inconsistency, imo. I have always stated it as my opinion. I have never engaged in an ad hominem attack on Timvp.
It may seem to you that I am splitting hairs.
I disagree. That's all.
Spell out what you are disagreeing with. You're just speaking in generalities and hypotheticals. Do you disagree that Parker isn't on the same level as LeBron and Durant? Do you think the players capable of carrying their team to a championship are LeBron, Durant and Parker? If that's what you're disagreeing with, then let me know. As of now, I'm confused where your beef is.
I'd disagree that Parker is on the same level as LeBron and Durant. If that's where we disagree, then that's fine. But you're telling me you disagree but aren't telling me why/where/how.
I'm talking about this thread and this season as a whole. If you have a problem with A instead of A+, put it in that other thread. It doesn't make sense to complain about a singular grade in a separate thread that isn't discussing that grade.
What do I "consistently do regarding him"? I need something concrete to argue against.
If it's that I "always find something to complain about" ... well, yeah, that's what the Grades and Game Thoughts are about. I try to point out the positives and negatives about every player. No player ever plays a perfect game; basketball is a game of mistakes.
Where is that comment in this thread? Again, my only non-positive comment is that Parker isn't on the same level as LeBron and Durant. Do you perceive that as a "but he's not really that great comment"?
With all due respect, I have made it clear that I grade based on expectations. I've never claimed to grade on "natural ability" or "natural talent". Parker is a top two point guard in the NBA. He's been playing the best basketball of his career for a season and a half now. He's the most underappreciated dominant player in the NBA. That's why he can put up a triple double and still not get an A+. That's why he can come back from a double laceration, be the best player on the court by a wide, wide margin and still not quite be graded as being at the absolute top of his game.
Parker isn't like a DeJuan Blair charity case where if he makes a few layups and runs the court it's a shocking revelation and blows away his tepid expectations. Parker is DAMN good. Ironically, with more respect, perhaps it's you who doesn't realize quite how good Parker is. You make it seem like he's a talent-less runt just trying to get by. That's not the case. Parker is the fastest player in the NBA. Maybe the best finisher in the NBA. He's taught himself how to become an elite passer. His defense is better than ever. His shooting is better than ever. He's a great, talented, dominant player. There's no need to baby him ... he's a full-fledged beast at this point in his career.
Westbrick is shooting nearly 40% FG, in the post season thats gonna hurt them with fewer possessions.
Maybe that's my poor english but i don't understand what you're disagreeing on...
Define what an A+ performance would be. Playing well above an "above average" game. If TP gets 23 pts 9 asst and 4 boards, he has exceeded his averages in all 3 cats. But nothing out of the ordinary. But if he gets 30 pts, 12 asst and 6 boards then that would be an A+ game. IMO Each night I look for TP to get 17-23 points and 6 to 9 asst and 3 boards. These are average night, he does them almost every night so nothing out of the ordinary. Timvp does a really good job of grading the team. Dont alway agree with everyone but he may see things different than I on some things.
On thing I disagree with Timvp's original post is about Timmy playing tonight against Phoenix. Had we lost one of the two games to the "Pels" or Mavs, I would be looking for Timmy to play tonight. But we have a highly favorable schedule from now till the rodeo road trip to rest the players. 1/26 Phoenix at home 2nd worst record in West, 1/30 Charlotte at home worst record in the league and 2/2 Washington at home with 2nd worst record in league. Then the road trip starts on 2/6. I think that comes out to 3 games in 11 days. We wont get this much of a break again this season. If Timmy doesn't play tonight, I don't see us worrying about his knees. I think a few extra days rest would do him a lot more good than coming back tonight and getting a double double against the Suns. A win against the Suns without Timmy would be good.
When I see games like this, I always think of how the mighty have fallen, the Mavs, the Lakers, the Suns, the Jazz...all at one time elite/perennial playoff teams. Now on the West dance card, the Thunder and the Clips. The Spurs continue to roll through different eras with the "old" core mixed with different role players. I think it was JVG who pointed out the best three winning percentages of players in the NBA....Manu, Tony and Tim.
Just a thought, but if we're riding a 7 game winning streak and we're really not all that worried about playoff seeding, doesn't it make sense to rest Duncan as much as possible? Dude doesn't need to be on the court if he's sore at all and we're dominating.
That said, Tim, get healthy. Pronto.
I know he only played 8 mins and didn't do much but I thought Manu was moving around better/quicker in this game than the Hornets one.
I think that you and I do disagree on his ability and how you evaluate his use of his abilities.
I am having trouble satisfying your request that I simultaneously give specifics rather than generalities and at the same time, not discuss something as specific as grades if grades are discussed in another thread. You tend to evaluate with words and letters and numbers in both game thoughts and grades.
I have said for some time now that I do not consider Tony to have the same level of natural skill or ability as some of the other members of the spurs, much less of the league. It would seem to me that one's natural ability and skill set have something to do with what you 'expect' from that individual. So in that respect, it may well be that you and differ on how talented he is. Thing is, that doesn't really ring true to me.
Let's take the issue of expectations. This is the first time I have heard you express the opinion that Tony is among the top two point guards. As recently as last season, you indicated (I can't quote chapter and verse, but since I spent a lot of my career interviewing people, I do tend to remember what they say) that you weren't sure that Tony was among the top 5 pgs in the league, but that he was certainly among the top ten. As recently as earlier this season, you indicated that he
'has a terrible looking shot' when he uses that floater. That, to me, would indicate that he is stretching his natural abilities to their breaking point in that he accomplishes something that is not a natural thing for him. From that, I would assume that your expectations for an individual who is going beyond his natural abilities would be lower than for some other players, and that the accomplishment of having a high percentage of shots made (the highest in the league) in a challenging physical situation would rate an extremely high grade, consistently.
Secondly, with respect your stated point of evaluating based on expectations: if a player accomplishes something for the first time in his 11 year career (like a triple double), I don't understand how you can NOT assess that as having exceeded expectations for that player. Do you see what I mean?
I do not, in fact, believe that Tony is overly gifted naturally and that may be where some of our differences exist. He is quick, but not nearly as quick as he was when he came in the league. He has lost at least a step or step-and-a-half in the last three years. He is not the fastest in the league; he is not the best passer on this team, much less in the league; he does not have superior court vision for a point guard; he is not a particularly gifted defensive player.
Having said all of the above, I agree completely that Tony is playing the best basketball of his career. That is because he has worked, worked and worked at knowing the offense, learning the plays that Pop wants when Pop wants them, utilizing the skills of the other players on the team, and putting himself in harm's way repeatedly by driving the lane and running around and around while other players are content to stand in position and watch him. He has developed the floater and the three-point shot and the mid-range jumper in the last three seasons. He has improved his passing ability. He didn't come with those skills. He had to learn them. And he did.
So some of the inconsistency I see in your comments is that you have varied (again, imo) fairly widely in your assessment of Tony's abilities, but when it comes to evaluating him, you hold him to a higher standard than your other comments indicate he should be held.
My view is that he is a young man who has worked to develop his skill set well beyond his natural ability level. That he has done so and that he displays the strength, the courage, the leadership and the skill set he does is why he is, to me, the MVP of this team. And that when he goes beyond even the level of 'most nights' this season (either by a triple-double or a double-double after getting s ches in his eyelid), he deserves the best we as fans have to offer in our evaluations of him.
I don't know why you refer to 'slurping' in your discussion of your evaluation. That is exactly the kind of comment that sounds like you think you were giving him something he didn't deserve or hadn't earned. That is exactly the kind of comment that, to me, belies your protestations of having held him in such high regard.
I don't expect us to agree on this Timvp. I rarely comment on grades because grades are so subjective. I respect your position in having earned the right to distribute your grades, and I always read them, whether I agree or not. I just don't use your thoughts to determine my own assessments.
You and I both know that Tony has been subjected to some pretty negative press on this board. It seems to be a hobby of many of the posters. I get tired of it, but I don't always call people on it, because to do so just raises my blood pressure and is absolutely in the category of "things that won't change regardless so why waste your time". But I do respect your thoughts and that is why I am willing to try to occasionally challenge your self-perception that you are so much of benefactor to Tony in your grades and your discussions.
And, about El Nono....I mostly laugh at E-N because he has made dumping on Tony an iden y issue for himself, and he is awfully good natured about it. Plus, I happen to agree with him that Manu is the best. Period. I would rather watch Ginobili play basketball than most anything. But that is it, you see, Ginobili is sooooo talented. I expect more from him. And he is flashy. Parker is not flashy. That is why I said earlier that Parker reminds me more of Tim than Manu. Because Manu gets us all on our feet because his play is a thing of wild beauty (except of course when the ball goes in the stands, but you know what I mean), whereas Tony and Tim give us win after win after win, with or without Manu. We are a far better team with Manu, but he is no longer the determinant of a win. Tony pretty much is that, without the raw talent and without the flash.
How about getting a double double in 29 minutes after having three s ches put in your eye?Define what an A+ performance would be. Playing well above an "above average" game. If TP gets 23 pts 9 asst and 4 boards, he has exceeded his averages in all 3 cats. But nothing out of the ordinary. But if he gets 30 pts, 12 asst and 6 boards then that would be an A+ game. IMO Each night I look for TP to get 17-23 points and 6 to 9 asst and 3 boards. These are average night, he does them almost every night so nothing out of the ordinary. Timvp does a really good job of grading the team. Dont alway agree with everyone but he may see things different than I on some things.
On thing I disagree with Timvp's original post is about Timmy playing tonight against Phoenix. Had we lost one of the two games to the "Pels" or Mavs, I would be looking for Timmy to play tonight. But we have a highly favorable schedule from now till the rodeo road trip to rest the players. 1/26 Phoenix at home 2nd worst record in West, 1/30 Charlotte at home worst record in the league and 2/2 Washington at home with 2nd worst record in league. Then the road trip starts on 2/6. I think that comes out to 3 games in 11 days. We wont get this much of a break again this season. If Timmy doesn't play tonight, I don't see us worrying about his knees. I think a few extra days rest would do him a lot more good than coming back tonight and getting a double double against the Suns. A win against the Suns without Timmy would be good.
It's a balancing act. You want him rested and re-couped from the knee banging/contusion, but you don't want him to lose his game conditioning. After tonight, the Spurs don't play again until Wednesday. The Philly game was last Monday, meaning he will have had no game action in 9 days. If he's healthy, he should go. It's Phoenix. He should be able to play less than average minutes.
What I'm hoping is that not sending him to Dallas was Pop's sneaky way of resting him on the front end of the B2B. Tim hates to sit out.
I agree. Timmy doesn't seem to need to stay on the court constantly, or ramp up like many players do, to keep his game sharp.
Random thought...ESPN must have dreaded every minute of airtime the Spurs had. They spent nearly the entire pre-game and halftime show talking about anything but the Spurs. It was the lead story while the game was on presumably to generate viewership, but this morning there was no direct link story even on the NBA page. It's crazy...they got a national spotlight game and were disrespected seemingly the entire time. It did sound like Jeff Van Gundy would take a job with the Spurs at anytime though.
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