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Blair was very good but he was not MJ or Durant as POTY ... not special imho. But Spurs were wise to spend a 2nd rounder for the same reasons ... plus dude has knee issues I dont see how he applies ...
DeJuan Blair says hi.
Blair was very good but he was not MJ or Durant as POTY ... not special imho. But Spurs were wise to spend a 2nd rounder for the same reasons ... plus dude has knee issues I dont see how he applies ...
Not saying Blair = MJ or whatever, but that he should've gone higher than 37th for the same reason MJ should've gone 2nd.
Well, point is that MJ wasn't ridiculously special back then, sure he was good, but he wasn't goat special. If he was, he would have been taken #1 by Houston. If you can find scouting reports on that guy, he had quite a few flaws in his game. People were still using tape for crying out loud. They do not have the access of information that we do. Honestly, we were transported back in time to the 80s along with our technology, we would have been super scouts, because we can break down a player's strengths in weaknesses in relative ease.
The data that we can easily crunch through now with simple tools like excel and access would have taken about 200 interns a thousand years to crunch through with their slide rulers and calculators.
Tip Off - How the 1984 NBA Draft Changed Basketball Forever by Filip Bondy is a great read. Great Insight on how well respected Dean Smith was back in the days.
The draft was big man dominated back in those days. Houston would've taken Jordan had Portland won the lottery.
Go back to the Op post ...Bobby Knight tried to convince Portland. Bobby knight though a great coach but was no NBA scout. Point being if choice is a potentially speacial poty or a big with injury history I take the great small. Name me all the special bigs that led team to les almost all sans Duncan and Hakeem had a special wing to complement them. (Modern era) look at all the bust bigs the past 30 years plus others like Malone Ewing and Robinson that were not able to rang as number one option.
Like I said. Portland made a mistake, but it was no where close to how modern revised i story made it out to be. Newspaper sells stories, and how Jordan was shafted for a bust is a great story that writes itself. It's part lazy journalism, and part salesmanship.
You are right, knight wasn't a scout, therefore Portland didn't listen. Knight had the benefit of spending an entire summer with Jordan was something special, the rest of the league didn't and went with conventional wisdom, which was drafting a big.
Were there many busts bigs? Of course, because teams are still drafting size. Ironically, one of the biggest draft bust was drafted by Jordan. But having a franchise big and putting complimentary wings for a championship is much easier than getting a franchise wing and getting complimentary bigs around them. Outside of Jordan, there hasn't been one wing who led the team to a championship w/o an absolutely dominant frontline, one that is clearly better than the best of the league. Otoh, Malone, bird, Hakeem, and Duncan all led teams with average backcourts to championships.
Some good points but Bird is essentially a wing a point forward so to speak who was actually (in photos) smaller than Magic. Malone had Mo cheeks and Andrew Toney so I would say to call that backcourt average is suspect. Hakeem had Cassell, elie, Kenny smith Maxwell and Drexler (repeat). Only drexler was a star but I would say teh rest were above average starters and really great at their defined roles. I get your point that teh media loves to bash Bowie but my point still stands on Sam's injury history. If I remember correctly Sam had a great SEC tournament that year which I think inflated his stock. HE flashed amazing potential but what good does that do on a suit on the sideline? I realize teams historically draft big ... but reaching for an oft-injured big was the mistake ... not going big ...even BEFORE hakeem rang no one ed about taking Hakeem over MJ because the dream wasnt inury prone and improved every year in college and the pros ... Sam was a reach based on height. MJ wasnt the only player they passed to get Bowie only the best and most famous.
Barkley, Stockton were all in that very same draft. Other solid players include Alvin robertson, Otis thorpe and Kevin Willis ...
SO in a draft with 4 first ballot HOF'ers and players that made a few ASG appearances they took Bowie with the 2nd choice ...
Last how else would it be considered a mistake amb, except using historical context? Some folks (Im guessing ACC fans, Knight myself and Im sure some others thought it was a mistake in 1984) not only me ...thought it was a mistake in 1984. I knew far little about hoops. I only watched/noticed MJ/UNC because JAmes worthy had played there and he was talking to Chick Hearn in a interview about how good MJ would be (he went back to play with him at NC in the summer after he left) and even he underestimated MJ ...
Also my Mom used to buy me Street & smiths college magazine and they also thought MJ was the 2nd best player coming out that year. Im not saying I knew MJ would be GOAT i did not know for sure BOwie would bust. Just saying it was a poor decision then and it's silly that GM's keep making. Almost every big you pointed to as winning had great college careers (sans Moses) and limited no injury history. Even without stats and moderne medicine Blazers should of seen the red flags that a kid like me could see ... of course I would rather have a dominant big. But on every level of ball a special wing is better than a mediocre to decent big.
Last edited by Killakobe81; 01-30-2013 at 09:24 AM.
Houston were really lucky to have rang twice in the 1990's otherwise they would have been in the same boat as Portland are for life.
As a big man, Hakeem was such a finesse player though. It's still a mystery how such a talented player couldn't beat teams like Portland, Phoenix and to an extent, the Lakers in the Western Conference.
No mystery. Players don't beat teams, other teams do.
Stephon Marbury on MJ "How can one person have so much game?"
No really, that Houston squad in the mid 80's had a great team.
lSome good points but Bird is essentially a wing a point forward so to speak who was actually (in photos) smaller than Magic. Malone had Mo cheeks and Andrew Toney so I would say to call that backcourt average is suspect. Hakeem had Cassell, elie, Kenny smith Maxwell and Drexler (repeat). Only drexler was a star but I would say teh rest were above average starters and really great at their defined roles. I get your point that teh media loves to bash Bowie but my point still stands on Sam's injury history. If I remember correctly Sam had a great SEC tournament that year which I think inflated his stock. HE flashed amazing potential but what good does that do on a suit on the sideline? I realize teams historically draft big ... but reaching for an oft-injured big was the mistake ... not going big ...even BEFORE hakeem rang no one ed about taking Hakeem over MJ because the dream wasnt inury prone and improved every year in college and the pros ... Sam was a reach based on height. MJ wasnt the only player they passed to get Bowie only the best and most famous.
Barkley, Stockton were all in that very same draft. Other solid players include Alvin robertson, Otis thorpe and Kevin Willis ...
SO in a draft with 4 first ballot HOF'ers and players that made a few ASG appearances they took Bowie with the 2nd choice ...
Last how else would it be considered a mistake amb, except using historical context? Some folks (Im guessing ACC fans, Knight myself and Im sure some others thought it was a mistake in 1984) not only me ...thought it was a mistake in 1984. I knew far little about hoops. I only watched/noticed MJ/UNC because JAmes worthy had played there and he was talking to Chick Hearn in a interview about how good MJ would be (he went back to play with him at NC in the summer after he left) and even he underestimated MJ ...
Also my Mom used to buy me Street & smiths college magazine and they also thought MJ was the 2nd best player coming out that year. Im not saying I knew MJ would be GOAT i did not know for sure BOwie would bust. Just saying it was a poor decision then and it's silly that GM's keep making. Almost every big you pointed to as winning had great college careers (sans Moses) and limited no injury history. Even without stats and moderne medicine Blazers should of seen the red flags that a kid like me could see ... of course I would rather have a dominant big. But on every level of ball a special wing is better than a mediocre to decent big.[/QUOTE]
I think we agree more than disagree on this. Portland, no question, made a mistake, even without the benefit of hindsight. Your point, as far as I can get it, is that the magnitude of that mistake is as big as people make it out to be in recent times, while my stance is that it was a mistake, but it was a mistake that many teams have made, and is not as bad as people drafting Kwame Brown and Olowakandi #1 in drafts, and made by Portland again with the drafting of Oden over Durant.
Bowie was a very skilled big man, one who can defend and pass like a young Bill Walton, he wasn’t just some tall guy who happened to play basketball.
Non-issue.
Sam Bowie reveals that he lied to Portland about feeling leg pain before the infamous 1984 NBA draft
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ba...9458--nba.html
Are you calling Andrew Toney and Mo Cheeks an average backcourt? Toney was a bad man before his injury problems in the mid 80s, and then Dr J at the three? Moses had some incredible perimeter help when he rang.
Yeah, maybe average was a mistake, but not far and away the best backcourt in the league is probably the better term in case of Malone.
I think we agree more than disagree on this. Portland, no question, made a mistake, even without the benefit of hindsight. Your point, as far as I can get it, is that the magnitude of that mistake is as big as people make it out to be in recent times, while my stance is that it was a mistake, but it was a mistake that many teams have made, and is not as bad as people drafting Kwame Brown and Olowakandi #1 in drafts, and made by Portland again with the drafting of Oden over Durant.
Bowie was a very skilled big man, one who can defend and pass like a young Bill Walton, he wasn’t just some tall guy who happened to play basketball.[/QUOTE]
Walton was not injury prone in college, Amb.
Never said he was.
Walton was not injury prone in college, Amb.[/QUOTE]
Drafting Bowie was way worse than drafting Oden, as Bowie had stress fractures in college that kept him out of two seasons while Oden's only injury was a broken wrist.
The video posted speaks more to why Bowie pick wasn't as bad as it looked now. The announcers were praising Bowie throughout, talked about how he came back with vengeance, and that his skills were phenomenal.
Drafting Bowie was way worse than drafting Oden, as Bowie had stress fractures in college that kept him out of two seasons while Oden's only injury was a broken wrist.
[/QUOTE]
my point exactly ...
Oden not only had the wrist but had some HS issues (IIRC) plus he has a problem with his legs being ... one longer than the other by quite a bit ...
Not trying to extend this debate just saying they were signs in both cases ... and the Blazers chose to ignore them, based on the build around a big theory. I am not even arguing that they were wrong to do so ...I just dont like it. to me unless the big is special I would rather have the special wing. Sam had the chance to be special ... but his injuries for me seemd to make him a bust candidate.
Again dint know MJ would be GOAT ... I also thought durant would be good but he exceeded my expactations as well. Im just arguing that with a wing of high caliber (which both were considered out of college) the quality of big does not need to be Moses or Shaq ...just liek you pointed out that some bigs won without supertsar wings. I only have been watching ball since 1980 but Magic, Bird, Isiah Kobe and Mj have been the stars of almost as many les as Shaq, Duncan etc. I think the common thread is having one of the best players regardless of size.
Note: I do think the PG theory is interesting ... but rarely has a PG been a top 3 NBA player since I have been watching the NBA ... and when they have been Kidd, Magic Isiah, Stockton, GP (debateable) they win or make the Finals ...
I also realize because of Kareem/Magic and Shaq/Kobe the numbers are hard to sort out ...
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