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I would say, no other PG has continued to improve his game like TP has throughout his career.
No
I would say, no other PG has continued to improve his game like TP has throughout his career.
Just links, but if you haven't seen this, your mind will be blown:
Steve Nash: http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../nashst01.html
Tony Parker: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...parketo01.html
Chris Paul: http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../paulch01.html
Paul's numbers absolutely blow Parker and Nash out of the water, and pretty much everyone else's too. If you look just at the advanced stats section, they are very comparable to Durant and LeBron. As much credit as Chris Paul gets, and it's a lot of credit, it might not be enough. This is just reinforcing what most in this thread have said, but for those who aren't aware, Chris Paul is an absolute clear #1. There is zero contest to this.
Parker has had 2 legitimate MVP caliber seasons (including this year). steve nash had several. cp3 has had a few. i mean if you take out the last 2 seasons you could argue billups > parker. to take these last 2 amazing years and call TP the most dominant point guard of the last 10 years? not sure about that one
Tony Parker is the most dominant PG of the decade and Danny Green is Ray Allen? ....... How do we only have 4 rings?
no he is not.
Small caveat: I'd toss the 08-09 season up there with these past two as his best overall.
yeah but i don't think he was in the "best pg in the league" discussion at that point. only last year and this year has he even made a case for it (even then CP3 has just as good, if not better an argument). 2 years of TOP tier pg play =/= 10 years of dominance
Oh no, I'm not contesting that. Just pointing out that considering only these past two seasons of his as 'great' is doing him a small disservice.
No way is he the most dominant. Especially when he doesn't play up to par in the playoffs. Having said that, the pass couple of years have been huge for him. He's definately become consistent and I don't cringe everytime he let's a 3 pter fly. He's much better at involving his teammates. I would put him in the top 3 of the decade though.
Everyone get off his in nuts. He is playing well right now. There have been other good PG's in the league. It really doesn't take much for you guys to forget about the rest of the NBA does it? Can we please wait for the playoffs? It would be nice if he could do this against OKC and LAC.
Not last decade, but career WS active PGs:
136.93 Kidd
128.01 Nash
120.54 Billups
98.01 Paul
89.12 Parker (this year gaining on Kidd, Nash & Billups, getting further behind Paul)
73.23 Bibby
63.10 Davis
Incorrect. Aside from rebounding, where there is a small observable effect, diminishing returns has been shown to be non-factor in NBA performance. And just qualitatively, if diminishing returns played a major role then there would be no such thing as superteams, which there clearly are.
You...don't actually know what a double standard is, do you?
Yes, It's fine to use individual per minute statistics to assess individual performance even though we know that in some cases (fewer than you think) things like coaches and systems make a difference. And yes, it's not fine to use team achievements for the same purpose. Your hyperbolic contentions about the Suns having "no chance in " or Parker being limited by his status as "cog in the machine" don't invalidate the premise, nor make it a double standard.
NBA Basketball has a more unequal talent distribution than any other professional sport in the US. Diminishing returns are demonstrably not a factor. As such, the only coherent way to judge individual performance is through individual statistics. And by individual statistics, Tony has been a good and a great point guard, but not anywhere close to the most dominant over a decade.
Last edited by EJFischer; 02-20-2013 at 12:08 PM.
No he is not. Come on now. He's not even the most dominant pg this year. It's not that TP isn't great, but he has so much compe ion. There are so many great pg's in the league.
Who is? And try to back it up, of course. He is currently listed #3 in MVP race behind 2 non-PGs so I guess that's going to be interesting.
If the premise is "most dominant" = "highest individual stats" then I clearly disagree for the reasons I put forward. The question isn't "who is the best stat-padding PG of the last decade?"
Your point about downplaying the influence of the system is crucial in this context. Check Steve Nash's stats: http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../nashst01.html
There's a HUGE disparity in stats between the Phoenix years (the era of Nash's "domination") and his seasons before (Dallas) or after (Lakers). It's pretty clear that d'Antoni's system vastly inflated Nash's numbers, and therefore perceived value. Check Nash's numbers when in Dallas, until he was 29--they are very much like Parker's (except Parker shoots better and scores more). This so-called "domination" is to me purely a consequence of the system.
I will also point out that it's no coincidence that Parker's rise happens just at the time when other players decline (Manu mostly, Duncan somewhat) and he is handed the reins of the team. This is why I feel team achievements are very important in this case.
Nash doesn't and never has played anything better than terrible defense, so to me, I can't take him seriously.
Thank you.
Shown by who? And how do you measure performance?
5 30 ppg scorer are supposed to score a combined 150 ppg?
Check at Bosh, Garnett, Ray Allen... career stats. And now tell me there numbers did not suffer from joining a superteam.
When you share the ball with Duncan & Ginobili, two players who create for themselves and others, you have less scoring and less assist opportunities.
His stats by month :
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/...xG60qKIUOYPKB4
November : 16.9 ppg, 7.3 ast, 48.3 %FG
December : 21.1 ppg, 7.4 ast, 55.1 %FG
January : 21.9 ppg, 7.9 ast, 56.3 %FG
February : 27.3 ppg, 9.5 ast, 55.0 %FG
AFAIC, Nash has two MVP trophies: Shaq's and Lebron's.
And it's too bad that the answer to the OP's question obscures the fact that Tony Parker has done a remarkable job of improving every year of his career. I'm hard pressed to think of a player who's consistently worked to step up his game every year more than Parker has.
I'd say one of them is Kobe's, actually.
I was kinda high last night when I made this thread first off just to clear things up. Second what I meant was to me parker has been the most unstoppable pg for a long time. Too bad the only times I can remember him getting shut down are against the grizzlies and okc
Sports economists, researchers at the Sloan Sports Analytics conference. Dave Berri in particular, I know, has published on the topic.
Linear regression from box score statistics, calibrated for position, home court advantage, and diminishing returns in rebounds. There are plenty of books on the topic. Check out Dean Oliver's Basketball on Paper or Dave Berri's Wages of Wins and Stumbling on Wins.
Tony has been excellent the last few years, and is clearly at the top at getting to the rim and finishing for a pg. Early on, TP's lack of consistent jumper hurt his overall game. Over the last two years Tony has found the sweet spot between scoring and dishing, which has moved his game up several notches...the top...no, but for the Spurs system it works amazingly well.
At the beginning of Parker's career, it was easy to brush off his numbers due to Timmy's play, but as Tony has had to carry more of the scoring and playmaking workload over the last few years, it has made the league take notice of TP's overall game.
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