venezuela offers asylum to snowden

[cheguevara]

US has been taking sides in civil wars around the world. Sometimes for the rebel side sometimes for the government side. Thats what you do in a civil war. You take a side. There are no good guys in a civil war for either side.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Zionist... You come up with this summation from my post? Good god...

You dont think Chavez repressed opposition? How many links do you want?
The economy in Venezuela is a blueprint. Are frkkn crazy? You think trading subsidized gasoline across the border for food is an economy?

Brainwashed fool.

What do you think an economy is? It's buy and selling of good's. And subsidized? It's a state run business. If it's a private business then its call 'lowered prices' but when its a state decision it gets the 'conservative' buzzword?

You can try and pigeonholed their economy into that oversimplification but the proof is in the pudding.

He took his nation's top natural resource and instead of enriching himself, increased GDP/capita by 150%, halved unemployment and quartered the poverty rate. If I am from Venezuela, then I am not going to give a damn if it's 'subsidized.' Our way of life just got pulled up out of the ter after all.

Compare and contrast to the US.

And you still haven't provided any compelling evidence of subjugation of opposition. You can certainly look at US policies regarding international espionage of our allies, use of bureaucracy to suppress opposition via various state state departments, IRS and election committees. SPying on our own populace and erosion of civil liberties. Granting of special privilege to the elite class via Citizen's United etc.

[pgardn]

What do you think an economy is? It's buy and selling of good's. And subsidized? It's a state run business. If it's a private business then its call 'lowered prices' but when its a state decision it gets the 'conservative' buzzword?

You can try and pigeonholed their economy into that oversimplification but the proof is in the pudding.

He took his nation's top natural resource and instead of enriching himself, increased GDP/capita by 150%, halved unemployment and quartered the poverty rate. If I am from Venezuela, then I am not going to give a damn if it's 'subsidized.' Our way of life just got pulled up out of the ter after all.

Compare and contrast to the US.

And you still haven't provided any compelling evidence of subjugation of opposition. You can certainly look at US policies regarding international espionage of our allies, use of bureaucracy to suppress opposition via various state state departments, IRS and election committees. SPying on our own populace and erosion of civil liberties. Granting of special privilege to the elite class via Citizen's United etc.

Are you fkking kidding?

Venezuela's economy sucks given the resources they have at their disposal. Its a flippn mess. Dont tell me what it is now compared to what it could be. They have squandered a national resource and then taken up allies like Syria and Assad to make sure very few countries will trade on the up and up with them. They have been cut off from prosperity despite an abundance of resources BECAUSE of the decisions made.

This was not a conversation about the US. Its a conversation about Venezuela.

Where are you going in South America to gain more civil liberties than you have in the US Lumpkins, where? The fact that you are on the internet right now, most likely in this country, and have not been investigated for anything should tell you that you are a fool.

http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012...2012-venezuela

This is but one ing article. There are hundreds.

[pgardn]

Lol syria is in a state of civil war. Guess what cuvilians will get killed in a civil war. Same exact will happen in any civil war including the next US civil war

Why are they in a civil war bonehead?

Why?

Did the US send agents? Have you heard of the Arab Spring? All the dictators in the middle East, yes many with our help, are the good guys? Since apparently there is no group that really wants Syria or any other country to respect human rights. Yes. Civilians should expect to be bombed by their own Air Force at random, got it.

No good guys or bad guys... rubbish cynical BS.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Are you fkking kidding?

Venezuela's economy sucks given the resources they have at their disposal. Its a flippn mess. Dont tell me what it is now compared to what it could be. They have squandered a national resource and then taken up allies like Syria and Assad to make sure very few countries will trade on the up and up with them. They have been cut off from prosperity despite an abundance of resources BECAUSE of the decisions made.

This was not a conversation about the US. Its a conversation about Venezuela.

Where are you going in South America to gain more civil liberties than you have in the US Lumpkins, where? The fact that you are on the internet right now, most likely in this country, and have not been investigated for anything should tell you that you are a fool.

http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012...2012-venezuela

This is but one ing article. There are hundreds.

could be.

Could be you make up and insert it for the truth. Progress is a relative thing. How things were in the past versus how they are now. You have been given the major economic indicators of unemployment, poverty and GDP. In counter you just bleet unsubstantiated garbage. I am going to guess your 'could be' is grounded in ideological bull .

No, that is just one article. Quit grandstanding on nothing. I don't buy it and I don't see anyone else buying it either. I have never said that Chavez was a saint. Far from it. I am just saying that nor is he a demon.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Oh and btw here is the US page for Human Rights watch.

http://www.hrw.org/united-states

I see your lack of election oversight and raise you torture and unmitigated surveillance of our citizenry.

An American should tread lightly when criticizing the human rights abuses of others.

[pgardn]

Oh and btw here is the US page for Human Rights watch.

http://www.hrw.org/united-states

I see your lack of election oversight and raise you torture and unmitigated surveillance of our citizenry.

An American should tread lightly when criticizing the human rights abuses of others.

So Venezuela's ok because the US is not. Got it. Where would you rather be in prison Lumpkins? Truthfully? You seem like a good dude, but absolutely blinded by your preconceived notions. You could not be this naive given how critiical, and its not unjustified, about the US.


So you dont trust them on Venezuela Lumpkins?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So Venezuela's ok because the US is not. Got it. Where would you rather be in prison Lumpkins? Truthfully? You seem like a good dude, but absolutely blinded by your preconceived notions. You could not be this naive given how critiical, and its not unjustified, about the US.


So you dont trust them on Venezuela Lumpkins?

What preconceived notions? That Venezuela has had some of the worlds best economic growth and income disparity improvements over the last two decades? That is observed and not conceived.

All I am saying is that criticizing other countries over lack of election oversight duing the age of the superPAC to go along with our use of torture and unwarranted surveillance of our citizenry is laughable. They aren't even in the same ball park. When the 'freest country in the world' is worse off then you....

And naive? gmfb. You even been to Venezuela? Now you are spouting off about Venezuelan prisons as if you have any clue whatsoever. Keep throwing; something is bound to stick though right?

[pgardn]

What preconceived notions? That Venezuela has had some of the worlds best economic growth and income disparity improvements over the last two decades? That is observed and not conceived.

All I am saying is that criticizing other countries over lack of election oversight duing the age of the superPAC to go along with our use of torture and unwarranted surveillance of our citizenry is laughable. They aren't even in the same ball park. When the 'freest country in the world' is worse off then you....

And naive? gmfb. You even been to Venezuela? Now you are spouting off about Venezuelan prisons as if you have any clue whatsoever. Keep throwing; something is bound to stick though right?

So you did not read the article you posted or I posted. Read the GD stuff you put up.

And Venezuela looked like a shining star when Chavez came in. He mucked it up with his God complex.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So you did not read the article you posted or I posted. Read the GD stuff you put up.

And Venezuela looked like a shining star when Chavez came in. He mucked it up with his God complex.

I will ask again. Have you ever been to Venzuela? YOu keep making reference to naive but I want to see your basis that goes beyond magazine articles.

Venezuela looked like a shining star now?

Shining star of what? The dirty toilet?

They had an unemployment rate over 16%. They had nearly a quarter of their population in extreme poverty when he took over. gmfb.

Shining star for US economic interests maybe. Certainly you are not claiming they were as a nation in and of themselves.

[pgardn]

I will ask again. Have you ever been to Venzuela? YOu keep making reference to naive but I want to see your basis that goes beyond magazine articles.

Venezuela looked like a shining star now?

Shining star of what? The dirty toilet?

They had an unemployment rate over 16%. They had nearly a quarter of their population in extreme poverty when he took over. gmfb.

Shining star for US economic interests maybe. Certainly you are not claiming they were as a nation in and of themselves.

Look at the article I put up and you will understand the prison situation. If you believe Human Rights Watch which you posted reference to. Then read the rest of it. Compare it to the US. No. I have not been in prison in either country therefore all I have to reference to is what I read that I believe to be true. You wanna tell me differently from your experiences being in most of the prisons in each country?

And yes thats right. Read about Venezuela the possibilities of trade that were ruined by Chavez. This world is not a vacuum unto single countries. You must somehow get along with the international community. It helps lives of INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE. If you are concerned at all about how the common man survives. Chavez mucked it up badly.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Look at the article I put up and you will understand the prison situation. If you believe Human Rights Watch which you posted reference to. Then read the rest of it. Compare it to the US. No. I have not been in prison in either country therefore all I have to reference to is what I read that I believe to be true. You wanna tell me differently from your experiences being in most of the prisons in each country?

And yes thats right. Read about Venezuela the possibilities of trade that were ruined by Chavez. This world is not a vacuum unto single countries. You must somehow get along with the international community. It helps lives of INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE. If you are concerned at all about how the common man survives. Chavez mucked it up badly.

We are comparing a third world country with the US. That you feel you need to justify it like this should tell you something. We aren't that better off from a rights perspective when we should be leading the world. Now ask yourself this: would you rather be in a Venezuelan or Brazilian prison? Would you rather be in a US or Canadian prison.

He mucked it up for the common man? When faced with the reality of 3 out of 4 of the extreme impoverished being taken out of poverty and when faced with 1 out of 2 of the unemployed finding work, I can only thiknk to myself, 'wtf is he thinking?'

If only he would have kowtowed to US trade demands like Columbia and Brazil then maybe he could have done something about jobs, income and poverty right? Oh yeah.....

How on Earth you can make that argument when faced with reality of what has actually transpired is beyond me. You are literally regurgitating the rhetoric about Chavez that has been going on for the last two decades. It may have been somewhat compelling twenty years ago but that ship has sailed. They didn't eat the cheese and have done well with themselves. It is what it is.

The ideology here is that trade with the US is inherently good. Well, that is fun I guess but the economic situation in Venezuela went from one of the worse to one of the better in the region. Additionally, they do better than the two US major trade partners in the region, Brazil and Columbia. Again, it is what it is.

Free trade as panacea is another conservative meme that is at best hit or miss. We can look to NAFTA for the truth of that. You are going to believe what you want to believe but this is case in point of why I do not buy ideological nonsense like this.

Venezuela has done very very well for itself of the past two decades economically. Your ideology is awful convenient for it's cons uent though. It just sounds like a ty sales pitch to me. As I say, the proof is in the pudding.

[pgardn]

We are comparing a third world country with the US. That you feel you need to justify it like this should tell you something. We aren't that better off from a rights perspective when we should be leading the world. Now ask yourself this: would you rather be in a Venezuelan or Brazilian prison? Would you rather be in a US or Canadian prison.

He mucked it up for the common man? When faced with the reality of 3 out of 4 of the extreme impoverished being taken out of poverty and when faced with 1 out of 2 of the unemployed finding work, I can only thiknk to myself, 'wtf is he thinking?'

If only he would have kowtowed to US trade demands like Columbia and Brazil then maybe he could have done something about jobs, income and poverty right? Oh yeah.....

How on Earth you can make that argument when faced with reality of what has actually transpired is beyond me. You are literally regurgitating the rhetoric about Chavez that has been going on for the last two decades. It may have been somewhat compelling twenty years ago but that ship has sailed. They didn't eat the cheese and have done well with themselves. It is what it is.

The ideology here is that trade with the US is inherently good. Well, that is fun I guess but the economic situation in Venezuela went from one of the worse to one of the better in the region. Additionally, they do better than the two US major trade partners in the region, Brazil and Columbia. Again, it is what it is.

Free trade as panacea is another conservative meme that is at best hit or miss. We can look to NAFTA for the truth of that. You are going to believe what you want to believe but this is case in point of why I do not buy ideological nonsense like this.

Venezuela has done very very well for itself of the past two decades economically. Your ideology is awful convenient for it's cons uent though. It just sounds like a ty sales pitch to me. As I say, the proof is in the pudding.

Oh.

So the goal is no trade with the US so as not to sacrifice some esoteric airy-fairy anti US strategy. China has just completely cow towed to our system of privatization soiling its integrity and economy.

Get real.

Chavez screwed that country and the wealth that could have been. Read about it sometime. You leave the experts in oil out because they have a western slant. Britain the US and others. RESULT is horrible inefficiency that could have made more ordinary people in that country live comfortably and WORKING. To with that, it's too western, too capitalistic. Sacrifice wealth because of the big bad bully. That's pure reasoning. If one cannot separate economics from political goals, failure ensues. THere were deals that could have put many more Venezuelans to work but they were shunned because of politics. It did NOT have to be this way. There is no way to deal with the US and prosper... Good reasoning. You will ultimately sacrifice your entire countries political system. PURE .

Yes. This is STILL a 3rd world country. Thanks much for that.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

It's hilarious seeing this guy regurgitate the same propaganda about how privatization and deregulated trade with the US is what's best for Venezuela when the significant economic progress that took place under Chavez is staring him in the face with objective statistics. Since he can't justify anything he says he has to spew bull conjectures about what Venezuela could be since you can't disprove a conjecture about something that never happened.

trying to pretend Venezuela was a great place when Chavez took office in spite of high unemployment and poverty.

You basically think Chavez should be the shah of Iran who the US put in power as an oil puppet yet I'm the brainwashed one because I do more than echo the board of directors at Exxon mobile

lol a nonsensical it of rage about PURE because you're programmed to get butthurt about Chavez not wanting to give US oil companies sweetheart trade deals

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Oh.

So the goal is no trade with the US so as not to sacrifice some esoteric airy-fairy anti US strategy. China has just completely cow towed to our system of privatization soiling its integrity and economy.

Get real.

Chavez screwed that country and the wealth that could have been. Read about it sometime. You leave the experts in oil out because they have a western slant. Britain the US and others. Result is horrible inefficiency that could have made more ordinary people in that country live comfortably and WORKING. To with that, it's too western, too capitalistic. Sacrifice wealth because of the big bad bully. That's pure reasoning. If one cannot separate economics from political goals, failure ensues. THere were deals that could have put many more Venezuelans to work but they were shunned because of politics. It did NOT have to be this way.

Yes. This is STILL a 3rd world country. Thanks much for that.

That was a nice fantasy twenty years ago. I have read plenty of neocon free trade bull . I will pass.

Since we are talking about China though, would you like to compare and contrast US trade policies with China with --I don't know,-- let's say Columbia, Brazil, and Chile. You know the countries that are actually similar to Venezuela. Seeing what happened with Allesenge in Chile in the 1970's its little surprise Chavez is as he is.

What you need to get real about is what went on with MFN, Nixon and China in the 1970's. While Nixon and Kissinger were desperately trying to normalize relations with China following the debacle of US Asian policy pretty much from the end of WW2, that duo was trying to rig elections and influence political parties in Chile. Our trade policies were not being an socioeconomic panacea for Chile and they were getting pissed off. WE made a whole lot of money though so I guess that's okay then I guess.

They had the audacity to not want to play with us anymore. So we tried to rig their elections. There is no proof of us backing the coup that deposed the guy we did not want three years later but our defense aid to Chile did go up 1000%.

Then there is Nicaragua.....

I know this is a novel concept but making trade treaties with the US has not always worked out. The opposite has happened more than you obviously think. But hey they could have had more Walmarts. Guess they will just have to miss out.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

That was a nice fantasy twenty years ago. I have read plenty of neocon free trade bull . I will pass.

Since we are talking about China though, would you like to compare and contrast US trade policies with China with I don't know, let's say Columbia, Brazil, and Chile. You know the countries that are actually similar to Venezuela. Seeing what happened with Allesenge in Chile in the 1970's its little surprise Chavez is as he is.

What you need to get real about is what went on with MFN, Nixon and China in the 1970's. While Nixon and Kissinger were desperately trying to normalize relations with China following the debacle of US Asian policy pretty much from the end of WW2, that duo was trying to rig elections and influence political parties in Chile. Our trade policies were not being an socioeconomic panacea for Chile and they were getting pissed off. WE made a whole lot of money though so I guess that's okay then I guess.

They had the audacity to not want to play with us anymore. So we tried to rig their elections. There is no proof of us backing the coup that deposed the guy we did not want three years later but our defense aid to Chile did go up 1000%.

Then there is Nicaragua.....

I know this is a novel concept but making trade treaties with the US has not always worked out. The opposite has happened more than you obviously think. But hey they could have had more Walmarts. Guess they will just have to miss out.

They could have also had their currency destroyed the way the peso was destroyed in the 90s right after NAFTA. Or how Mexican farmers trying to make an honest living lost everything because the subsidized US farmers were able to go into Mexico with low prices made possible with subsidies. Those are other awesome elements to free trade withe the US they'll have to do without. Sucks for them tbh.

[pgardn]

What country does the US import the most oil from?

Question to both of you idiots...

And the US has done some horrific things to countries in South America from an agricultural point of view. Horrific. But you dont automatically assume any deal is bad. Thats just stupid .

NAFTA has worked out good and bad for both the US and Mexico. You have been reading if you dont know that.

So answer the question.

[pgardn]

Of course they have not always worked out.

But dont assume they always fail. Dont assume a country cant benefit.
I have never been called a conservative by anyone. So this is a real hoot. I just never met people who were so jaded by EVERYTHING the US does from a business point of view.

so answer the question...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What country does the US import the most oil from?

Question to both of you idiots...

And the US has done some horrific things to countries in South America from an agricultural point of view. Horrific. But you dont automatically assume any deal is bad. Thats just stupid .

NAFTA has worked out good and bad for both the US and Mexico. You have been reading if you dont know that.

So answer the question.

This has gotten beyond boring. You are going to hold onto the neocon free trade meme no matter what, you're obviously getting mad and we all have better things to do.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

What country does the US import the most oil from?Question to both of you idiots...And the US has done some horrific things to countries in South America from an agricultural point of view. Horrific. But you dont automatically assume any deal is bad. Thats just stupid . NAFTA has worked out good and bad for both the US and Mexico. You have been reading if you dont know that.So answer the question.

[pgardn]

This has gotten beyond boring. You are going to hold onto the neocon free trade meme no matter what, you're obviously getting mad and we all have better things to do.

Of course we do. Its actually boring and frustrating.

Especially when you got it so wrong.
Some people have a difficult time reading what goes on in todays world.
Hold on to Che though. Some noble stuff there. But that was a while back.

Ironic accusing people of holding on to tired worn out views without knowing the facts.

Please show were Venezuela has violated human rights. Assuming they have not under Chavez. Facts shown. Change subject.

Night.

Do not try to reason a man out of something he did not reason himself into.

Big John Swift

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

God damn phone isnt working right. I'm out.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

The answer is Canada though. And yeah nafta had been good for your corporate overlords and bad for everyone else in America. I guess in that sense you can say its been good and bad for America.

[ElNono]

If there's anything you can't about Chavez is the fact that the guy was elected democratically (after leading a failed military coup, that threw him in prison), and re-elected democratically (including UN inspectors verifying the election was fair and square, and the opposition allowed to run it's campaign, etc).

I suppose it's very difficult to understand to the average American how such a extreme socialist kept winning elections (the default reaction is that he cheated), but it's really just not understanding what the politics of the 90's looked like in the region, when neo-capitalism and vulture capital exploited the country resources, caused economic crisis after economic crisis by undermining the local currencies, made very few very rich, and pushed everyone else to the bottom.

It wasn't just a phenomenon in Venezuela. It happened all across south america. The pent up anger with that elite is what triggered the populists movements to the forefront. That's how you ended with Chavez, Correa, Morales, Kirchner, and even Lula in Brazil.

These dudes are corrupt, all of them. But the reality is that when they had the neo-con, free market leaders, they were just as corrupt, and people were getting ed without lube.

Unless you've actually lived on the other side of the fence for any extended period of time, it's difficult to express how ruthless and ed up these multinationals and vulture capital funds can really be. When the playground isn't the US, and the US system of justice isn't hanging over their heads, they bribe, exploit and do whatever they want. And it sucks, because they're leaving a really screwed up image of the US.

[baseline bum]

So Venezuela's ok because the US is not. Got it. Where would you rather be in prison Lumpkins? Truthfully?

I'd go for Venezuela tbh