Bull . Most of the Boston HOF players were on the early teams. He won LONG after Sam, Cooz, and company retired. Boston had lots of good players and scorers before he got there. He MADE them HOF players by being the rock and anchor for ELEVEN LES IN THIRTEEN YEARS. They didn't win before he got there.
Ben Wallace? Are you ing kidding? Are you ing thirteen years old? Bill's rebounding and defense compares to Ben's like Ben's compares to Eddy Curry's. Has Ben ever averaged 20 rebounds? Bill did...for his ing career (22.5). I also don't think that a career 15 ppg is "playing only on one end". His teammate Bob Cousy only averaged 18.4. Did he only play one end, too?
Ditto. In particular Bill Walton > David Robinson it's an abolute joke.Nate Thurmond and Bill Walton > David Robinson?
What a joke. Walton had two good seasons in his NBA career. Thurmond was a good player, but what did he ever win? Robinson was at least as good of a defender as Thurmond, but was a much better scorer.
Rosen
See, what did I say. Rosen is an old (alright, ancient) hack that thinks because he's been watching basketball for decades that he has a worthwhile opinion. He doesn't. His hard-on for Celtic players (Walton > Drob? McHale > Mailman? Bwahahaha) is beyond sad, as is his understanding of the governing principals of how NBA basketball is played.
He shot 44% from the field for his career. He shot 56% from the line. He does have the assists but christ, you take away the easy putbacks and he was probably a 40% shooter. Was Russell the greatest rebounder the game has ever seen? Yeah. Was he the best shotblocker? Probably. Was he the best defensive center ever? Debatable.
WAS HE THE BEST CENTER OF ALL TIME? Naww!
My top five:
Kareem
Wilt
Hakeem
Admiral
Shaq
11 rings in 13 years. scoreboard, in a big way.
If I could pick any center from any era to start my team with, it would be Russell.
I'm not sure if you have selective memory, Slayermin, or what (?). I'm assuming you are old enough to have watched Bill Russell to make a statement like that (true?).
I must agree with Exstatic. Russell was the man, the ultimate warrior in the post. He actually made people want to quit, the way he dominated. The only guy I've seen as quick on reaction to defending and blocking shots was David Robinson. Russell was tougher-minded than David was but both were extremely intelligent players.
I never got to see Mikan...before my time. I have seen Russell play in person in Boston Garden. I have seen Wilt play in person. Nate Thurmond, Zelmo Beatty, Walt Bellamy, Bob Lanier, Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel, Wes Unseld, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and also when he was Lew Alcindor, Akeem/Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq, and of course David. All of these guys first-hand at the arenas.
Russell was the greatest center I ever saw play the game of basketball.
You don't mention the all time best centers without David Robinson.
Ewing? Where?
Walton top 10?
Hairdoo's.
Why are you guys so suprised David got crapped on? It's happened to him his entire career...even many Spurs fans do it.
It's just classic that David Robinson has the soft label...he was less soft than any player I can think of.
#1. His primary way of scoring was getting fouled.
#2. Instead of getting cushy college prep career...he was in the Military doing Officer training which is a of a lot tougher than any College is going to be(even in Naval Academy the Officers have tougher training requirement than the enlisted do).
#3. He represnted Team USA more than any other player in history...a record 8 ing times. And the last time he did he played through a damn hernia that ended his career as a SuperStar.
People are ing stupid.
Yeah he wasn't clutch...but he wasn't a choker either...
Oh well...at least it didn't happen to Duncan...If we hadn't won the le this year people would have said Duncan couldn't win without Drob...then they would have said Drob couldn't win without Duncan...they'd switch it around.
And Drob used to kick Shaq and Hakeem's ass..Hakeem got him one time in the playoffs...with a defending champion team comprised of superclutch role players and one of the NBA's 50 greatest guards.
The absolute ing joke is putting George Mikahn over Drob...he played in a pre integrated league...don't even ing try and tell me Drob wouldn't have destroyed that dude.
I guess these fools still believe in Santa Clause too.
The other joke is everyone always acting like Bill Russell beat Wilt because Wilt would choke or was more of a winner or something...
Has anyone ever looked at Russell's post seasons stats? They suck...
And he's as bad a FT shooter as Wilt was.
The best Center in NBA history was Wilt Chamberlain...
The best all around Centers in NBA history were Kareem, Hakeem, and Drob.
Then Shaq...but he was something different...but he wasn't as good all around...he wasn't good on D. And this was proved any time someone forced him to play it.
Don't give me this dominant crap...Drob's career scoring high is higher than Shq's and Drob was dishing out nearly 5 assists per game while he was doing it.
That old ass, yellow teeth, ugly ass old man doesn't know about basketball. He called Drob soft, he should see how soft his man ties are. How tha would anyone listen to an ugly ass old man like him?
I just want to see one of these suckers carry the freaking Naval Academy to the Round of 8 in the NCAA tournament...
Russell was a great player but he had the keys to the Ferrari.
Auerbach was the genius behind the Celtics. If it wasn't Russell, it could have been another talented big man. The Celtics had depth at every position with intelligent guys that played their roles. After doing a little research on Auerbach, I feel like the system in Boston was their key to victory, not Russell.
Anyway, I would take the Admiral or Jabbar over Russell anyday, from here to eternity.
Russell won a le as a player-coach after Auerbach retired - it's not Auerbach that got them eleven rings in thirteen years all by himself.
As far as the system goes - systems don't win championships. Players do.
Yeah...Russell was so good the Celtics won a le a few years after he was gone...with the residual HOF'ers left over from his last season.
I would put David somewhere in the top 4 of all time along with Russell, Chamberlain and FatShaq. As mentioned in an earlier post David has to be #1 in character.
As for Walton, he ended up averaging only 13.3 ppg for his career. True, he had an unfortunate injury but you don't rate the all time best centers based on what could have been.
Somehow, I think if the Admiral, in the prime of his career, had Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, etc. as his supporting cast (instead of say, Vinny del Negro and Frank Brickowski), he might have not been tagged 'too soft to win.'
Anyway, screw Rosen. REAL fans know Robinson's value---after all, without Robinson, would the Spurs even have been in San Antonio to draft Duncan?
I know stupid and Rosen is stupid.
Damn good point!
You are joking, right? Kobe was a Spurs killer during their 3peat run. Without Kobe hitting so many clutch shots to save Shaq's ass after so many botched missed FT's.....I can easily see the Spurs advancing over the Lakers all those years. No doubt Shaq can give you 20+ and 12+ on a nightly basis in his prime. Yet, people forget that he's not that great of a defender, he is a horrendous FT shooter who often chokes at the line in important games, and he NEEDS an natural shooter to be sucessfull...see Hardaway, Kobe, and now Wade.
Shaq would never be able to lead his team to the championship by himself.
I got a good chuckle out of this list.
I thought it has been pretty well established that the top three centres of all time is
Russeell, Wilt and Jabbar, in whichever order you prefer.
Then #4 is usually Olajuwon. The list then opens wide open, but the candidates are usually Shaq (extremely overrated imho, but still a top ten centre), Robinson and Moses Malone, again, in any order you prefer.
Then comes Ewing, Thurmond, Unseld, Walton, Mikan and the rest.
The comment about Shaq having the best post moves outside of McHale is ignorant. Hakeem Olajuwon? Tim Duncan? Wilt Chamberlain? Jabbar?
And I can never understand the Robinson is soft comments? How do you figure he averaged 12 rpg and 3bpg over his career? By avoiding contact? Where does all the fouls come from? I wonder have these "experts" have even watched him play, rather just base his toughness on how well-mannered he is on those interviews.
And another thing, why did the caption say Robinson didn't make the top 10 all time, when the list was only 8?
I also managed to read some of his other lists, and really laughed my head off.
1) He rated Lenny Wilkens, Dennis Johnson and Ralph Beard (who?) over Isiah Thomas and Bob Cousy.
2) He called Bird an inconsistent shooter
3) He had Rick Barry over Elgin Baylor, after he consistently talked about defense being so important, and excluded Alex English and Bernard King because they are "one-dimensional, defenseless scorers"
4) He said Ralph Beard was magnificent in his two years in the league, therefore warranting a top 8 selection. Then he just didn't mention Maurice Stokes at all. Double standards?
5) He ignores players of high regard with the "he doesn't play defense" slight, and yet ranked Shaquille O'Neal at #3 over Wilt, Robinson and Malone. I mean, if he cares so much about defense, why they was Rick Barry even on the list?
6) He rates players who played for Phil Jackson unusually high. Rodman over Barkley? Pippen over Dr. J? Shaq over Wilt?
The lists are just internally inconsistent. I am sure you can find more.
Last edited by ambchang; 07-21-2005 at 08:28 AM.
Already doubting....
You nearly lost me at this point...
At this point I was gone...
What a load of horse manure! The whole article, but particularly those three points. You just lost any credibility you had with me.
Is this what passes for basketball knowledge? If all it takes is being 90 and picking names out of a hat I think that I've figured out what I'm going to do with my retirement years. Including Shaq in the top ten is a semi-forgiveable defense. His career scoring stats are fairly impressive and a less than intelligent sort might buy into the hype (but "more move in the pivot than McHale? That would mean that McHale couldn't even shove his way into the paint, take three steps, run some one over, and dunk the ball. That's his only move.) But Walton? He was certainly an incredible college player but to include him ahead of Robinson, Ewing, or even Luc Longley is just plain ignorant.
I've got issues with this guy not giving enough kudos to (two-time NBA MVP) and perennial rebounding champion - Moses Malone and, of course DRob.
Philly would not have won a le had they not traded for Malone. He single-handedly put them over the top in 1983. Sure he wasn't a defensive gem, but no one worked the glass harder against bigger opponents that Malone.
Big Dave was a consistent 20-10 performer and, aside from Wilt, is the only other center to win a blocked shot le, a rebounding le and a scoring le during his career. Of course, he became an NBA champion after Duncan arrived - but 2 les nonetheless. He selflessly "stepped back" to allow Duncan to move to the forefront on offense. Dave's raw athletic ability has never been seen before and will never be seen again at the position. He constantly beat his man up and down the court and his defensive prowess rivaled that of both Russell and Hakeem. Definite top 7 selection.
It's already been mentioned here that Dave's supporting cast was sub-par during most of his career. Soft? no.
Also, how could he have left off another dominant center. The all-time leader in NBA field-goal percentage (60%), a dominant rebounder and one of the strongest players ever to control the paint - former Spur Artis Gilmore. I'm thinking Artis has be at least honorably mentioned.
I would agree with the Top 6, then DRob goes to 7.
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