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Get over it -- we wouldn't even have been in that game if he hadn't exploded in the second half. We were down 30 points or so iirc.
And a foul on Dirk to go with eight turnovers in Game Six. Epic fail.
Get over it -- we wouldn't even have been in that game if he hadn't exploded in the second half. We were down 30 points or so iirc.
And we wouldn't have been in that situation if Pop didn't decide to play smallball to match up.
Maybe, but this thread isn't about Pop.
I gotta disagree with the playmaker part. Tony didn't really have "it" in him early on in his career. But he's become a real playmaker in the recent years. Maybe not on prime Nash, prime Kidd or CP3 level, but definitely a playmaker.
He still misses the obvious pass sometimes or the ability to see a play before it develops.
Or when he dropped 34 at the age of 35 in game 5 and nearly took us back to the Finals in 2012 against Harden and OKC. or when he torched Phoenix in 05' In the WCF. Or hitting the game winner in cap one of the greatest comebacks in league history after going 3-17 up to that point.
Or when he posted 20 ppg against the leagues best perimeter defender (Tony Allen) while playing with a broken arm in 2011
F.Y.I even after he fouled Dirk and Dirk tied the game. Duncan who had 37 missed a game winner to end regulation and we also had 5 minutes of OT to get the job done. We came up short not just Manu.
That would be great for the Spurs and a realistic goal.
"Nearly..."
That sums up Manu over the last few years.
He has been awful but because he has one good game here or there you manu s strut and preen. We don't need ANY great games from him. What we need are NO HORRIBLE games where he totally destroys all the good the rest of the team has done. We don't have the margin to overcome his stupid plays and bad decisions.
If Manu had broken his ankle in Game 1 we are champs. That simple.
THE GUY COULDN'T EVEN DRIBBLE IN GAME TWO FOR GAWD'S SAKE.
I'm a huge ginobili fan, and while I don't think he'll be his prime self next year, I'm expecting a major bounce back. I really like that he's taking ttime off this summer, and I think he'll be close to the form he was a couple years ago. With that being said, I really hope kawhi gets the green light to create. In the games without the big 3, kawhi really showed he could create and he dropped something in the high 20's with lots of midrange jumpers. Like someone said, I'm looking for him to average around 16 and 8
Manu 11.9 and 3.4 reb last season (best season 2007-08 19.5 and 4.8) Like the guys said, 16 and 8 from Leonard this year, sounds really good.
I couldn't agree more. Kawhi's a willing passer but with Tony and Manu in the team, Spurs doesn't require him to show it very often. Pop said that he'll calling plays for him and with these offensive plays Kawhi'll start to develop more creativity with his dribbling and passing.
I know, right? Aside from being a willing passer, Kawhi's shown the ability to make smart passes. Besides, he knows how to find good spots to be on the end of good passes. If he can do that, I don't see any reason why he can't on the passing end of those plays.
No. If you're going to have Manu on the floor turning the ball over because his ego cannot accept the fact that his passes aren't as fluid or crisp as they once were, or that he's become predictable because of his limitations, Leonard's prowess isn't going to overcome that. If you have Manu chucking up bricks because he's hit some big shots over his career, and even though his 3pt% is horrid, then Leonard's long reach isn't going to compensate for that.
Basically, the Spurs won't be able to compensate for giving a liability decent minutes in big situations. Our confirmation bias causes us to instantly say "see I told you so" when Manu hits that game winner, and we ignore the fact that we were that close because Manu turned the ball over 8 times and often during critical plays. Love the guy, but he's gotta go.
Since he's been contemplating retirement because he hates the thought of rehab (and let's be honest, he knows his game is basically gone), and since even at his peak his effectiveness was largely due to his basketball IQ and craftiness, even a good rehab doesn't get him back to where the Spurs need him to be. He's lost his mental edge more than his physical one. Mentally he was capable of reading the defense and making eye popping plays that most of us couldn't have predicted. Now he's trying to make the same plays but he cannot because he cannot read the defenses. He gets picked by someone cheating into the passing lanes and yet he doesn't compensate by narrowing the passing lane mentally. He just does it again and gets the same result. It's about making decisions and he hasn't adjusted his game mentally to compensate for his age (Unlike Tim).
Right now Manu is a ticket selling device, not much else. If the Spurs are legit contenders this year (they might end up that way if they get as fortunate as they did last season with the matchups), having Manu playing big minutes would basically equate to them choosing ticket sales over success on the court. I cannot say I blame them though. Even when Dallas won the ring, they couldn't justify keeping guys together. Unless you're big marketish, rings aren't nearly as important as fielding a group that the locals can relate to.
Post of the year right here. Well said, and eloquently so.
Last edited by Skull-1; 08-25-2013 at 03:20 PM.
Premature Kawhiulation.
That is a BOLD statement.
I love Kawhi, and think he is the future, but as others have stated, prime Manu lifted the level of his teammates by creating plays, while at the same time having the ability to take over games.
Kawhi is awesome, but it is a bit premature to place him at that level yet.
Wow, Kawhiīs ceiling higher than Manuīs? The past two seasons Manu played really below his standards and it was clear for the first time that he was declining. Itīs logic, he is a 36 years old guard who relied in athleticism. Happens to the best, eventually. You canīt beat father time. At the same time, letīs wait if Leonard can become really that good. Ginobili was an all-nba talent at his peak, which means a top 10-15 player in the NBA. All-Star, almost Finals MVP (in the same team, played a guy Tim Duncan in his prime), he led Argentina to a gold medal while defeating a team full of NBA All-Stars and many more feats. Right now his role should be reduced, but donīt disrepect a legend.
It's hard to say at this point if Kawhi will turn into the creator that Manu is, or was.
i'm one of the types that believes kawhi is the next franchise spur. i think his ascension covers for manu AND tim aging. i'm not worried about kawhi's play making ability. he'll keep up/improve his defensive play. he was grabbing offensive boards like a big in the playoffs. he's got to hit his 3's and master the occasional tough pull up mid ranger. the big 3 can ride that all the way back to the finals again.
Agreed with all of this except idk if he can be a superstar franchise player yet. I really think the only way we get back to the finals is either with a resurgent Manu or with Kawhi playing like he did in the finals on a consistent basis. His 3 point stroke, while for the most part pretty good, is pretty streaky and he really needs to work on it being consistent. I think his next step is to learn to shoot threes from every angle and to maybe learn to shoot them off the dribble. I'm looking for him to take a Paul George type leap, who become a star in his 3rd year
Some of you are answering a different question than what was asked. Leonard doesn't have the decision making ability currently to lead a team and his athleticism isn't dominant enough to overcome that. He's got huge hands, and he has a fearless demeanor and an even keel. That will guarantee him minutes on any team in the NBA, however in order to lead a compe ive team he has to have the ability to make decisions on the fly and not just on offense. Remember when you just knew it was over when Manu took the ball in the last minutes of the game? You knew he'd drive to the rim, get fouled and hit his FTs. You didn't want the ball in anyone's hands but those of Manu Ginobili. You remember when he could draw technical fouls while walking to the bench after a timeout (against Deron Williams)? Remember when he could stop a play that you just knew was going to bury your team? He's not that guy any longer, but then neither is Leonard. Manu did a of a lot more than score and defend. His will to win the game is probably greater than any player since Jordan, and maybe even stronger than that. The things he did with his body to gain an advantage, when he really had none otherwise, I've never seen anyone else do. He's not a great shooter, not a great rebounder, not a great shot blocker, not a great defender, he's a good passer but mostly his passes are circus passes that you just don't believe he made, but he's not a passer in the mold of a JKidd or Steve Nash. His will to win got him over these humps though. All that middle level skill lumped together with that will to win made him better than the sum of his skills.
Until Leonard can show something like that on a consistent basis, he's not going to be a team leader. Manu wasn't even a team leader even though he very well could have been on most any team in the league had he wanted to be.
I think Kahwi can be at least as good as Paul George. I'm putting him down as a lock for an all star next year.
Yes, if he's given a bit more opportunity on O. Kawhi is a sneaky-good scorer off post-ups, pull-ups, baseline drives and corner 3s, and it's time he became a more featured option, especially in the right matchups.
Your argument against Manu is all over the place.
You can't even use "Manu " in the proper context. Its for people who are considered loyal to a fault of Ginobili. I had statistics to back up my assertions, You don't.
-I responded to a quote that said Kawhi ceiling was higher than Manu's was. I said that it doubtful cause Manu was one of the most effective players in the league for a span of 6 seasons (an average P.E.R or 23)
-You randomly mentioned 06' when he fouled Dirk that sent the game into OT. Even though Duncan missed a game winner and we lost after 5 minutes of OT.
- I responded with a small list of Manu's post season accomplishments over his career.
-You mentioned last season, when he struggled in the finals. But you neglected to mentioned some of his better games.
-Game 7-18 points, 5 assists against Miami-Loss
-Game 3, 19 points 5 assists, 7 rebounds against the Grizzlies=Win
-Game 5, NBA finals 24 points, 10 assists against the Heat=Win
-Game 5, 5 points, 11 assists, 5 rebounds in 24 minutes against the Warriors=Win
-Game 3, 21 points 5 three pointers,=Loss
-Game 1, 16 points, 7 rebounds, 11 assists, Game winner against the Warriors=Win
-Game 1, 1st round 19 points,7 assists in 19 minutes, +19 +/- against the Lakers=Win
-Game-2,13 points in 19 minutes, +19 +/-against the Lakers=Win
Obviously it was more than a game or two in our 21 post season won.
His post season run was actually fairly similar to his regular season numbers, with his shooting percentage and 3pt percentage dipping slightly, but his assists rising and only playing about 3 minutes more per game.
At this point he can't carry a team nor should he. He is at best a forth option now who was tasked with being the 3rd option and carrying a bench that is otherwise mediocre.
-His play making was essential to our run. His assist to turnover ratio was 2:1 this playoff is actually much lower than his career post season average of 3.9 assists to 2.6 T.O's. (1.5 assists to T.O).
The reason why we didn't "have the margin to overcome his turnovers" was because we really only 2 had to play-makers on our team. Having a rotation of Parker, Neal, Green, Ginobili and Leonard.
-Neal is undersized and a poor defender.
Green is a non threat off the dribble
-Leonard can't consistently attack the rim and can't/doesn't create for others.
It says alot when your 3rd, 4th and 5th best passers are Duncan, Diaw, and Splitter.
There really wasn't any other option, other than to continue to go with Manu. Hopefully this season Joseph/ Mills or Belli can help ease the shot creating burden.
Last edited by cd021; 08-26-2013 at 11:02 PM.
Your argument against Manu is all over the place.
-I responded to a quote that said Kawhi ceiling was higher than Manu's was. I said that it doubtful cause Manu was one of the most effective players in the league for a span of 6 seasons (an average P.E.R or 23)
-You randomly mentioned 06' when he fouled Dirk that sent the game into OT. Even though Duncan missed a game winner and we lost after 5 minutes of OT.
- I responded with a small list of Manu's post season accomplishments over his career.
-You mentioned last season, when he struggled in the finals. But you neglected to mentioned some of his better games.
-Game 7-18 points, 5 assists against Miami-Loss
-Game 3, 19 points 5 assists, 7 rebounds against the Grizzlies=Win
-Game 5, NBA finals 24 points, 10 assists against the Heat=Win
-Game 5, 5 points, 11 assists, 5 rebounds in 24 minutes against the Warriors=Win
-Game 3, 21 points 5 three pointers,=Loss
-Game 1, 16 points, 7 rebounds, 11 assists, Game winner against the Warriors=Win
-Game 1, 1st round 19 points,7 assists in 19 minutes, +19 +/- against the Lakers=Win
-Game-2,13 points in 19 minutes, +19 +/-against the Lakers=Win
Obviously it was more than a game or two in our 21 post season won.
His post season run was actually fairly similar to his regular season numbers, with his shooting percentage and 3pt percentage dipping slightly, but his assists rising and only playing about 3 minutes more per game.
At this point he can't carry a team nor should he. He is at best a forth option now who was tasked with being the 3rd option and carrying a bench that is otherwise mediocre.
-His play making was essential to our run. His assist to turnover ratio was 2:1 this playoff is actually much lower than his career post season average of 3.9 assists to 2.6 T.O's. (1.5 assists to T.O).
The reason why we didn't "have the margin to overcome his turnovers" was because we really only 2 had to play-makers on our team. Having a rotation of Parker, Neal, Green, Ginobili and Leonard.
-Neal is undersized and a poor defender.
Green is a non threat off the dribble
-Leonard can't consistently attack the rim and can't/doesn't create for others.
It says alot when your 3rd, 4th and 5th best passers are Duncan, Diaw, and Splitter.
There really wasn't any other option, other than to continue to go with Manu. Hopefully this season Joseph/ Mills or Belli can help ease the shot creating burden.
Manu sucked. There is no way around it. Leonard beat Manu in every category except assists, but Manu had so many turnovers it canceled out his assists and then some.
PER is a worthless stat.
Manu played like crap and cost us a championship. You can quote all the stats you like. Guy had one good game, one so so game, two horrific games and the rest were just bad. Miami beat us because Ginobili helped them more than he helped us.
Last edited by Skull-1; 08-27-2013 at 06:28 PM.
Leonard vs Ginobili 2013 Playoffs:
Points - Leonard 284 - 242
Rebounds - Leonard 190 - 78
Turnovers - Leonard 23 - 55
FG Pct - Leonard 54.5 - 39.9
3PT Pct - Leonard 39.0 - 30.2
Steals - Leonard 37 - 24
Fouls - Leonard 40 - 55
Blocks Leonard 11 - 6
Games in Double Figures - Leonard 18 - 11
Basically, Leonard did way more to help and way less to damage by nearly every measure than Manu. Considering the only areas Manu did better (free throws and assists) were not favorable on a cost:benefit analysis the evidence is incontrovertible. Leonard is part of the Big Three. Manu is not.
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